Reasons to Keep Bargnani

[sanity]

WTF, BARGNANI ERA, THIS IS HIS 1ST YR W/O CHRIS BOSH. NO1 HAS CLAIMED THIS TO BE THE BARGS ERA EXCEPT THE PPL THAT DON'T LIKE HIM. OUR GM WHO DRAFTED HIM HAS SAID THIS TEAM HAS NO FRANCHISE TAG PLAYER CURRENTLY.....

You're just projecting now.

[J-Roc]

WTF, BARGNANI ERA, THIS IS HIS 1ST YR W/O CHRIS BOSH. NO1 HAS CLAIMED THIS TO BE THE BARGS ERA EXCEPT THE PPL THAT DON'T LIKE HIM. OUR GM WHO DRAFTED HIM HAS SAID THIS TEAM HAS NO FRANCHISE TAG PLAYER CURRENTLY.....

It's not about whether he's a franchise guy. It's about whether he's the starting centre in the lineup game in and game out.

No all-caps from me, so I shouldn't get in trouble.

[Le Roi]

WTF, BARGNANI ERA, THIS IS HIS 1ST YR W/O CHRIS BOSH. NO1 HAS CLAIMED THIS TO BE THE BARGS ERA EXCEPT THE PPL THAT DON'T LIKE HIM. OUR GM WHO DRAFTED HIM HAS SAID THIS TEAM HAS NO FRANCHISE TAG PLAYER CURRENTLY.....

you mad?

[Too Late Crew]

Poor Bargs most unique and persecuted player of all time.

His on off numbers look really bad. Most good players they look good?

Well folks that's because ou see the raptors are "unique" they have the most even talent distribution in the nBA !! See while all the other teams have bad bench players that make their starters look GOOD the Raptors are the only team in the NBA that do the opposite..see not only is Bargs unique but so are the Raptors.

Like Dallas..Yes Dirk has an on off of +17 but that's becuase Dallas has a weak bench with players like:

Brendan Haywood, Shawn Marion, Jose Barea and Jason Terry

Uhmmm doesn't that Dallas bench actually look BETTER as a supporting cast than the entire toronto Raptors starting lineup?

The lenghts people will go to to try to excuse Bargs is simply unreal. Every year he has a - on on for 5 years. Yet its a reasonable indicatior for every other player except poor bargs who is in such a unique situation it doesn't apply to him?

Let's try a different tack. How about we compare him to other players who play this "3rd banaana" role he's so suited to. But look at something other than individual scoring...we've already determined he could be "adequate" as a 3rd option in terms of scoring. Now a 3rd banana doesn't get nearly as many shots so he needs to be on the floor to do something else postive becuase there are a lot of possetions in 30 mpg and he can't just stand around waiting for hios team to score. How do Bargs contributions (based on his positon) compare to otther 3rd banana's in terms of rebounding, shot blicking, steals, individual D, team D passing deflections chasing loose bals etc etc?

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Re: Comparing him to other scorers...

I don't really see why comparing him to other high volume scorers that play other positions is wrong. Scoring is scoring. Every team has somebody that count on for lots of shots, last minute shot clock situations, etc... We shouldn't have to compare Bargnani to guys like DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler who throw down 4-5 dunks a game just because they're relatively the same height. High volume scorers should be compared with other high volume scorers regardless of height, speed, athleticism... I don't care how the baskets going in but I want to compare people who are relied on for scoring of a similar degree.

I can't believe you asked me to prove this but ok, fine I will.

Scoring is not scoring and I would think that with your basketball knowledge you would know this.

Not all shots are created equal. There are things as higher percentage shots for a reason and certain positions on the floor are considered higher percentage shots. The position a player plays for their team has historically determined what types of shots a that player takes.

TS% average by position for all players that play over 20mpg

C - .563
PF - .552
Wings - .546
PG - .535

So again, Bargs tests out as an average shooting wing and shows to be a below average front court player. The problem is, he isn't a wing player and plays a position where the player is expected to be more efficient, so team overall offensive efficiency suffers because of how he scores.

[Schad]

That's simply not true.

2009 - Bosh's best year as an NBA player

Hedo - negative 4.2
Jose - negative 0.5
Derozan - negative 7.3

Hell, even Chris Bosh... despite being one of the most statistically impressive players of last season was only a + 6.0 with this sad sack team of starters.

If you compare that 6.0 with other starters on teams that had weak benches and better starting units overall you'll see that Bosh's +6.0 despite being one of the best players statistically in the NBA last year isn't particularly impressive. The Raptors starters have sucked for a long time in comparison to other starters. Bosh was far and away the team's best starter by a mile last year and even his contributions were minimized but how good our bench looked/looks against many other benches.

Bargnani isn't the same class as player as Bosh. It's not even close and them playing together (Barg's enitre career until this year) did no favors for Bargs because he's similar but worse in practically every way but the Bosh era is over and the expectations shouldn't be the same 'cause Bosh was a borderline franchise player and we've known that Bargnani wasn't for years now.

You take a third banana type and put him in a starting lineup this bad and compare his off minutes with bench players that destroy other benches most nights and of course he's going to look bad. This entire starting lineup needs massive improvement. We need big upgrades in HIGH END QUALITY not MIDDLE RANGE QUANTITY.

This is why adjusted +/- exists. Bosh was 15th last year among players with 2000+ minutes; Bargs was 20th from the bottom.

The sad bit? That was a banner year for him...his adjusted +/- this year and in '08-'09 grade out worse.

[RapsFanInVA]

We gotta keep Bargs to continue the proper tank movement. No team succeeds with a 7 footer who can't rebound or defend or be bothered to play hard.

[DG88]

WTF, BARGNANI ERA, THIS IS HIS 1ST YR W/O CHRIS BOSH. NO1 HAS CLAIMED THIS TO BE THE BARGS ERA EXCEPT THE PPL THAT DON'T LIKE HIM. OUR GM WHO DRAFTED HIM HAS SAID THIS TEAM HAS NO FRANCHISE TAG PLAYER CURRENTLY.....

During summer league Rick Kamla said that with Bosh gone he didn't think Bargs could be a franchise player. BC stated that Bargs can be a franchise player, leaving Kamla stunned. I watched that interview and so did others.

[Too Late Crew]

This is why adjusted +/- exists. Bosh was 15th last year among players with 2000+ minutes; Bargs was 20th from the bottom.

The sad bit? That was a banner year for him...his adjusted +/- this year and in '08-'09 grade out worse.

Adjusted +/- is just another flawed and Biased stat designed to make Bargs look bad. It adjusts for many things but its missing the multplier for uniqueness!

Take adjusted +/- and then multiply by 10 if a player is Italian, by 10 more if he''s a 7 footer who shoots 3s and that gives you Bargs true adjusted +/-

[Paperclip]

While I appreciate the stats gathered to argue things objectively, I think it is quite obvious Bargs is an average player and below average defensively for his position. I mean seriously guys, anyone who has watched this bum for the past 5 years should be able to see that by now. I can`t believe people still dispute the stats.

[JYD]

Keeping him is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Furthermore, hanging onto him hoping for extremely high return to save face on the 1st pick is also the wrong thing to do. As long as he is here, starting as our C, the development of this team is hindered.

And no, it is not a good idea to build around a guy who is not a star (ie trading significant assets to get a good C) in order to hang onto the hope that things can work with him. Maybe for other teams with a good C, or the assets to get one, this would be an ok plan...but we don't have those luxuries right now.

I'm not saying trade him for nothing...we can try to get decent value...but clinging to him unless we get a blow-away offer is also wrong.

The absolute worst thing we could do is keep Bargs and deal guys like DD or Davis in order to land players who wlll fit around Bargs.

[Death Knight]

Re: Comparing him to other scorers...

I don't really see why comparing him to other high volume scorers that play other positions is wrong. Scoring is scoring. Every team has somebody that count on for lots of shots, last minute shot clock situations, etc... We shouldn't have to compare Bargnani to guys like DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler who throw down 4-5 dunks a game just because they're relatively the same height. High volume scorers should be compared with other high volume scorers regardless of height, speed, athleticism... I don't care how the baskets going in but I want to compare people who are relied on for scoring of a similar degree.

I can't believe you asked me to prove this but ok, fine I will.

Scoring is not scoring and I would think that with your basketball knowledge you would know this.

Not all shots are created equal. There are things as higher percentage shots for a reason and certain positions on the floor are considered higher percentage shots. The position a player plays for their team has historically determined what types of shots a that player takes.

TS% average by position for all players that play over 20mpg

C - .563
PF - .552
Wings - .546
PG - .535

So again, Bargs tests out as an average shooting wing and shows to be a below average front court player. The problem is, he isn't a wing player and plays a position where the player is expected to be more efficient, so team overall offensive efficiency suffers because of how he scores.

Bargnani doesn't rebound or block shots either, but don't worry, we're going to get a PG that will rebound and block shots (there's plenty of them) to compensate for Bargnani. It might be an unsual role reversal, but always think "EVOLUTION OF THE GAME" and all of a sudden everything will make sense again.

[Ong_dynasty]

The problem with the team is simple. It is not built like a team.
We do not know how to hide deficiencies.
I take Bargnani for who he is. A good player, with the offensive mismatches that a well built team should be using properly.

My question is, maybe this has been asked before.
For all the hate of fans of Bargnani being one-dimensional (is true), why doesnt Demar get the same hate? Demar is allergic to rebounding for an sg, his assists is god-awful, and his defence.well..! (as raptors fans seems to have this either one or the other thing going).

Lol...I'll tell you why.
DeMar is a 2nd year player, Bargnani is a 5th year player
DeMar's rebounding as a SG is not nearly as bad as Bargnani for a C. One of the primary jobs for a C is to rebound the damn ball.
DeMar's play making has definitely improved as the season went on. Also, DeMar usually gets the ball after running off screens so he doesn't have really get the opportunity to make a play with the ball. Bargnani on the other hand just aimlessly shoots without even looking at a teammate unless double teamed.
Again, DeMar's defense is improving but still inconsistent.

I find it funny how people have to bring up DeMar or who ever just to defend Bargnani and likewise.

Bargs hate has been with him since the second year. I dont hate either but I see deficiencies as both.
If a C's primary job is to rebound, should an sg's primary job be able to spread the floor past the 3pt line?
what you cant create plays after running off screens, thats new to me.
has it really improved? or has he just had more time to on the floor (playmaking that is?), i personally do not even see an average playmaker in him.
Bargs can be a decent man to man defender which he has proven, so its not like he is bad (if you are trying to defend demar's d in anyway).
As I say, I want both to succeed but i never understand why there has to be 2 camps between the 2 players. its like demar is the anti-bargs and bargs is the anti-demar, but when you look at both of there deficiencies, it is eerily similar.

[Double Helix]

Here's the thing: I think some of you think that some of the people who've been debating Bargnani's value with you are these huge Bargnani homers who can find no wrong in the guy. You probably think he's our favorite player or something. Believe me, I'm fully aware of the guy's weaknesses and he's not my favorite Raptor. I know he's not anywhere near being anything close to a franchise player and as mentioned about a million times by now nobody else involved with the Raptors thinks he is either. The fact that there's been this much hatred and "I want him gone. I'll trade him for anybody" talk is the only reason I've been participating in these "debates."

He's a 25-year-old player with a PER of 16.5. He has the 51st highest VA/EWA ranking in the league this year. He's nothing special but he's not the awful piece of crap that so many have tried to make him out to be. He's become this whipping boy for no other reason than the fact that he was taken 1st overall and because he required some nurturing in order to become nothing more than a 3rd banana type of player. This resentment consumes many Raptors fans but I have a question for you guys and I want you to try and ask yourself this honestly... Would you really be this upset if we had drafted this guy 15th overall and the expectations were lower? Wouldn't we just be thinking of him as a player and nothing more?

Were people this pissed off about a guy like Tom Chambers? Stood 6'10 played PF and C and was drafted 8th overall. The guy liked to dunk and score (it was his main strength) but it wasn't like he was super elite at either. He was a poor defender, a below average rebounder and shot blocker and posted PERs in the 15s and 16s and low 17s all the way up until he was 28. Despite these things and lack of dominance and due in large part to popularity Chambers was a 4-time all star, and one time all-star MVP. Were the fans on the teams he played for complaining over what he lacked?


Were people this pissed off about Troy Murphy's inconsistency rebounding the basketball and lackluster defence? Murphy posted PERs of 16.8, 15.9, 14.5 and 16.0 through the ages of 24-27.

Were people in Indiana this resentful about the fact that Rik Smits was taken 2nd overall over Mitch Richmond and barely cracked 30 minutes per game his first 6 years in the NBA and that he didn't dominate the glass despite standing 7'3? Were they concerned that a man that big had a career TS% average of .548? He was a good shot blocker but by no means was he a defensive anchor for the Pacers. Through the ages of 23-26 Smits posted PERs of 14.9, 16.8 and 14.8. Did Indy fans want him long gone too?

Were people in Portland this furious over Rasheed Wallace's lack of hustle on the glass despite standing 6'11 and having above average athleticism? His PER at age 23 and 24 was 14.9 and 16.7 respectively and he averaged 5.9 and 6.1 rebounds per game.

CUE THE "But those guys had ______ and Bargnani doesn't" responses. The point I'm trying to make is that these guys didn't dominate to their full potential and weren't franchise players in a lot of ways during these years but they were still key pieces on teams despite major weaknesses. I'm not comparing them directly to Bargnani but more just trying to show you how ridiculously polarizing he's become for no particular reason.

Advanced statistics have allowed us to view these guys under extreme microscopes and separate the truly elite players from the secondary stars and third banana types. Bargnani has a PER of 16.5 which isn't great but it's basically the very definition of what most people who value these advanced stats look for in a third banana type. This PER ranking takes into consideration virtually everything that he does and doesn't do on the court save for positional defence/help defence. It accounts for his poor rebounding and poor shot blocking ability this year. It accounts for the fact that he's not a good passer and that he doesn't turn the ball over much. It takes his efficiency into consideration. It looks at everything he does and doesn't do statistically and sees him as a guy that has historically been not only in a team's rotation but a key piece. Again, it's nothing to be excited about or terribly upset about. He's just a guy that could be in the rotation and play a key role and unless you get 11 players better than that... why are you guys so stressed out and adamant about his exit?

Now, I'm not pretending he's anything more than that but let's just pretend once and for all that this guy was drafted 15th or something. Would we really be making this big a deal about him either way or would we just see him as a solid scorer with a lot of other holes in his game like a lot of NBA players and keep looking for better players. We need better players. I don't care if Bargnani comes off the bench or what but I think he can be a key contributor to a good team as a result of the one thing he does better than all but 57 other high volume/high usage players in the NBA: put the ball in the net with the defence set and score in the half court. It sounds simple 'cause it is but he's good enough at doing that one thing by proving this year that he can do it in different situations and against different defenders and with more defensive attention than he's faced and taking more shots and shooting the same FG% he shot 2 years ago on less shots to be a third banana type. Maybe that's off the bench Antawn Jamison/Jason Terry style... maybe it's not but he'll be a key piece here or elsewhere as a result of his abilities even with his weaknesses in mind.

If you take one thing from this I hope it's this. He's just a PER 16.5 guy. Why are we talking about him as though he's the entire franchise? He's not even close. Why are we comparing him to Bosh? He's not anywhere close to that and isn't being paid like it either. He's just an above average NBA player on a very bad team. Nothing more, nothing less and the sooner we quit talking about him like he's some big deal one way or the other and instead start focusing on adding star players to the team the better.

[mrsocko]

Sad but I think he has to go. If only we had a GM who could have gotten us the defensive centre we needed. It would have been interesting to see if he could have developed as a 4/3. I think that once he is traded it will light a fire under him and on a better defensive team he could flourish.

This ain't that team.

[Deadpool_X]

People can argue all they want, but it comes down to this:
Why would you pay 10mil a season for a guy who doesn't do anything special? Not just that, he takes away from the team, by playing piss-poor defense at a position that should be anchoring it for 36 minutes.

I just don't see how you can defend him? I could understand if he was like Matt Bonner or and went out there and gave everything he had and just kinda sucked. But he goes out there and floats around, lets guys fly by him without a care, and then has quotes about how sometimes he just doesn't try to play defense or rebound.

Super player!

[C_Money]

There are no good reasons to keep Bargnani. We should trade him while we still can before the rest of the league figures out this guy has no brain.

[Too Late Crew]

He's a 25-year-old player with a PER of 16.5. He has the 51st highest VA/EWA ranking in the league this year. He's nothing special but he's not the awful piece of crap that so many have tried to make him out to be. He's become this whipping boy for no other reason than the fact that he was taken 1st overall and because he required some nurturing in order to become nothing more than a 3rd banana type of player. This resentment consumes many Raptors fans but I have a question for you guys and I want you to try and ask yourself this honestly... Would you really be this upset if we had drafted this guy 15th overall and the expectations were lower? Wouldn't we just be thinking of him as a player and nothing more?

These people who think he's a POS and want him gone for nothing are not the majority.

If he was just a player and nothing more would people still defend him? If he was just a player would people blame him being just a player on coaches, language barriers, Bosh and every other thing under the sun?

If he was just a polayer would people talk about him being an all star, about how he's being misused as a center?

As soon as people stop coming up with rediculous defenses and rationalizations for why he is what he is a lot of the critisim will stop.

Even people who want to pretend to be rational always leave themselves a way out.."he's a bad at X Y or Z..BUT...or if we just..if he can just.....

When the BUTS dissapear from the stamanets so will many of my replies.

[flatjacket1]

Hes still young and finding his way in this league and enjoys the city and isn't the worst contract around.

I'm fine with waiting and seeing a player like that mature and see where we land. Sure he might not be a franchise player but he has shown that for stretches he can be the center of our offense (efficient at that) and defense is the easier of the two.

Last year when talking about the Raptors Jeff Van Gundy (might have spelled it wrong) said it best. Its easier to get a team of offensive minded players to play defense than to get a team of defensive minded players to score. A lot of it is team defense, and I think a little bit of this blame has to land on Jay Triano's shoulder. I think hes a great coach and I agree with a lot of his philosophies (not that it makes it more legitimate) but he is certainly hurting our defense more than hes helping.

I would keep Bargnani right now based on the fact why move him? Do we really benefit moving him now? Is this team going somewhere if we dump him now?

All of these people saying we need to use a pick to get rid of his contract have to realize that arguing that means it makes more sense to hold. Nowhere to go but up.

Why do we need to move so many players so fast? If a good trade comes up, take it but why rush this and push him out of town? Last I checked we weren't contenders without him.

[Death Knight]

That's not the case at all actually. The data is simply any minutes involving the Raptors where Andrea isn't playing so this includes hundreds of hours of data where he and many of the other starters are on the bench and our team's bench is going up against the other team's bench. The data does not just include the starters minus Andrea vs other starters. It's nowhere near as cut and dry as that.

DH,

I already gave the solution. Just do the same comparison for the other 4 starters and see if they show the same defficency. If they do... than your theory is correct, if on the other hand their numbers look better than Andrea's than he is the one dragging ass.

Aight...Nets points per 100 possessions. Now, obviously all the numbers are going to be negative for a team that finds themselves on the losing end most of the time (20-50).

Players who are better on than off

Calderon (On: -5.0...Off: -9.8)
Surprised? Well considering that many claim Calderon's defense has improved this season, I guess so. Unlike Bargnani, Calderon is a guy who actually tries on defense most often than not, but is just physically limited with slow lateral quicks and reaction time. He tries though. He still has to go and an upgrade at the PG position is needed. Sorry Jose, but you're just not what we're looking for in a PG.

Amir (On: -3.7...Off: -10.9)
Fear Amir, you know it! One of the few soliders on the team who battles. Not an elite defender by any means, but is at least adequate to good.

Players who are worse on than off

Evans (On: -11.7...Off: -6.3)
Okay so he hustles and rebounds, but lets not kid ourselves............he's not going to intimidate anyone on defense or block anyone's shot at any point during a game. And being one of the most offensively challenged players on the team, it's hard for him to make it up on the offensive end.

DeRozan (On: -8.6...Off: -3.2)
I'm one of those who started a thread questioning DeMar's ability to anchor the SG spot moving forward. Aside from questioning his ball handling abilities, lack of break down ability and 3pt shooting, I also questioned his defense. Many agreed that his defense needs improvement, but made such excuses as the SG spot being the toughest to guard in the NBA, and that he is only 21 years old in his 2nd NBA season, etc...I've also heard people claim that his defense has improved as the season has gone on, which may have, but is still far too inconsistent as a defender.

Bargnani (On: -7.9...Off: -5.3)
We've talked enough about it.

The starting SF spot is left in question here, as at least 4 different players have started for a duration at some point in the season, Kleiza, Weems, Wright, James Johnson. Harder to guage with no consistent starting SF. But just for the hell of it:

Kleiza (On: -4.5...Off: -8.4)
Iono....He hasn't played for so long that not only have I forgotten how his defense was, but I also forgot he was even on the team. But I'd like to point out that he is the only SF who can shoot the 3 ball. Maybe racking up those extra points helped him close the gap between what he provided on offense and what he gave up on the defensive end.

Wright (On: -0.6...Off: -8.7)
The highest difference in on and off court amongst the players listed here, but too small of a sample size having only started 6 games and overall plays just 14mpg to the point of not being in the rotation at all anymore. But the one thing we do know about Julian Wright's role on the team is to play defense. He has had his moments in doing so.

Weems (On: -10.2...Off: -5.0)
This man has shown no interest to play any defense whatsoever. He clearly came into the season with the mindset to chuck up shots and score thinking that it would net him a good new contract in the coming offseason. Not surprised the team's better with him off than on the court. SMH @ MONEY Weems.

James Johnson (On: -6.9...Off: -7.0)
Pretty steady and balanced for a new guy who's just trying to fit in.