Reasons to Keep Bargnani

[Too Late Crew]

I wish I never made this thread. I should have known people would take over it with their own agendas.

As opposed to say blindly following along with your agenda?

Lets not try to paint a thead titled Reasons to Keep Bargnani as being without any kind of agenda.

[Nothingface]

I wish I never made this thread. I should have known people would take over it with their own agendas.

As opposed to say blindly following along with your agenda?

Lets not try to paint a thead titled Reasons to Keep Bargnani as being without any kind of agenda.

Please answer this:

There is still a large contingent of fans who support Bargnani. Why can't we have threads where can talk about him in a positive manner?

If anything positive of Bargnani is posted, the same group of posters jump on it and derail the thread. You are one of them.

This thread is about reasons to keep Bargnani. It's not asking if we should. Please tell me how your posts are on topic.

[Dr Positivity]

My argument still is this

Most people would agree when healthy with Reggie and Barbosa and JJ here, we play like a 26-27 win ish team

What do you think this team would win with David Anderson getting Bargnani's minutes? So Calderon, Bayless, Derozan, Barbosa, Weems, James Johnson, Amir, Davis, Reggie, and Anderson

That looks like a 13 W team to me. If that.

I'm not saying Bargs is worth 10-14 Ws on a good team. He might not be worth 4 on a great team. But on this team there is almost no question in my mind on this talentless squad he's making us better. Does that make him a great long term piece? Nah... but he's a decent placeholder.

If you truly believe Bargnani's defensive lapses outweigh his offensive contribution - try to convince me the above roster without him could come anywhere near 25 Ws. I really can't. That roster is a step above the D League

I truly believe Bargnani added 10 Ws to THIS roster.

[J-Roc]

Absolutely Bargs added wins this season. Offensive games will do that. A real tanking team would limit Bargs' minutes and even sit him a few more games with flu like symptoms.

[Dr Positivity]

He's a 25-year-old player with a PER of 16.5. He has the 51st highest VA/EWA ranking in the league this year. He's nothing special but he's not the awful piece of crap that so many have tried to make him out to be. He's become this whipping boy for no other reason than the fact that he was taken 1st overall and because he required some nurturing in order to become nothing more than a 3rd banana type of player. This resentment consumes many Raptors fans but I have a question for you guys and I want you to try and ask yourself this honestly... Would you really be this upset if we had drafted this guy 15th overall and the expectations were lower? Wouldn't we just be thinking of him as a player and nothing more?

[...]

If you take one thing from this I hope it's this. He's just a PER 16.5 guy. Why are we talking about him as though he's the entire franchise? He's not even close. Why are we comparing him to Bosh? He's not anywhere close to that and isn't being paid like it either. He's just an above average NBA player on a very bad team. Nothing more, nothing less and the sooner we quit talking about him like he's some big deal one way or the other and instead start focusing on adding star players to the team the better.

Agreed. 16 PER is very accurate. Nowhere near a guy to center a franchise around, but he's still better than the replacement most of the team. Especially on a team like this.

I'd go as far to say that having a 22ppg player gives us a structure an identity that separates us from a team like Cleveland. We know who we're going to 20 FGA/game, Derozan knows how many shots he'll get behind Bargnani, the other guys on the team know to go after rebounds when Bargnani gets the ball, etc. Say what you want about our team but our offense isn't disorganized. We have a pecking order. The #1 option C, the #2 option SG, the playmking PG, the rebounder/defenders, and the athletic swing guys. Having clear offensive #1, #2 and playmaker roles means the other guys are depended on to defend and crash the boards and do little things like make the right pass. To me that's the biggest reason we play like a 25-27 W team when healthy instead of a 13 W one and don't get killed by great teams. I don't think Minny, Sac, Washington or Cleveland are organized offensively. Well Cleveland might be but they're THAT untalented.

Bargnani is the most important part of our offense. Period. A 22ppg scorer on a team full of role players is the focal point. Having a #1 guy makes everything else fall in line.

I have NO DOUBT in my mind the 4 most important players on our team are Calderon, Derozan and Bargnani, and Barbosa. They do the most. By far. To try and argue a 10 and 6 20mpg energy rebounder has more impact on a team than a 35mpg 9apg PG, 17ppg SG or 22ppg C or a 19ppg per 36 6th man is silly. That's not how basketball works. The guys who do the most are the most important players. Calderon, Derozan, Barbosa and Bargnani ALL have .52-.54 efficiencies cause they the only guys the defense cares about. The defense doesn't give a rats ass about Davis and Amir. They leave those guys open to go defend Derozan and Bargnani.

[Reignman]

My argument still is this

Most people would agree when healthy with Reggie and Barbosa and JJ here, we play like a 26-27 win ish team

What do you think this team would win with David Anderson getting Bargnani's minutes? So Calderon, Bayless, Derozan, Barbosa, Weems, James Johnson, Amir, Davis, Reggie, and Anderson

That looks like a 13 W team to me. If that.

I'm not saying Bargs is worth 10-14 Ws on a good team. He might not be worth 4 on a great team. But on this team there is almost no question in my mind on this talentless squad he's making us better. Does that make him a great long term piece? Nah... but he's a decent placeholder.

If you truly believe Bargnani's defensive lapses outweigh his offensive contribution - try to convince me the above roster without him could come anywhere near 25 Ws. I really can't. That roster is a step above the D League

I truly believe Bargnani added 10 Ws to THIS roster.

You could make a similar argument for Reggie.

IMO, in a 20 win season nobody should get props.

[Comeatme_Bro]

My argument still is this

Most people would agree when healthy with Reggie and Barbosa and JJ here, we play like a 26-27 win ish team

What do you think this team would win with David Anderson getting Bargnani's minutes? So Calderon, Bayless, Derozan, Barbosa, Weems, James Johnson, Amir, Davis, Reggie, and Anderson

That looks like a 13 W team to me. If that.

I'm not saying Bargs is worth 10-14 Ws on a good team. He might not be worth 4 on a great team. But on this team there is almost no question in my mind on this talentless squad he's making us better. Does that make him a great long term piece? Nah... but he's a decent placeholder.

If you truly believe Bargnani's defensive lapses outweigh his offensive contribution - try to convince me the above roster without him could come anywhere near 25 Ws. I really can't. That roster is a step above the D League

I truly believe Bargnani added 10 Ws to THIS roster.

You just said yourself that he isn't a great long term piece. When people point out Bargnani's weaknesses they are thinking long-term and how his lack of an overall game will affect our team in the future. Obviously with our current roster lacking talent, we are worse without him in the lineup. But I honestly do not believe that we will be a lost cause without him. Remember that game vs Dallas earlier in the season? That game was arguably our best game of the season. That game was pure heart and ruggedness. Right now we are a crap with and without Bargnani. I just don't see how we can reach the next level with Bargnani playing significant minutes with the deficiencies that he has.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

My argument still is this

Most people would agree when healthy with Reggie and Barbosa and JJ here, we play like a 26-27 win ish team

What do you think this team would win with David Anderson getting Bargnani's minutes? So Calderon, Bayless, Derozan, Barbosa, Weems, James Johnson, Amir, Davis, Reggie, and Anderson

That looks like a 13 W team to me. If that.

I'm not saying Bargs is worth 10-14 Ws on a good team. He might not be worth 4 on a great team. But on this team there is almost no question in my mind on this talentless squad he's making us better. Does that make him a great long term piece? Nah... but he's a decent placeholder.

If you truly believe Bargnani's defensive lapses outweigh his offensive contribution - try to convince me the above roster without him could come anywhere near 25 Ws. I really can't. That roster is a step above the D League

I truly believe Bargnani added 10 Ws to THIS roster.

It isn't a fair argument though. You are taking a semi-efficient scorer who can't play a lick of competent defense and is one of the worst rebounders for his position to ever play the game and replacing him with a scrub of a player who bounces around from team to team.

A fairer comparison would be to find a competent defensive C who's an average rebounder for the league (not superstar) but who's an absolute sieve on the court otherwise to the point where he may as well not even cross half court on the offensive end.

Say like, Marcus Camby or Dalembert or Kwame or Biedrins...

[sanity]

The talk of Bargnani not being here means we will probably have somebody better than David Anderson taking his spot

[Yeezus_]

I wish I never made this thread. I should have known people would take over it with their own agendas.

As opposed to say blindly following along with your agenda?

Lets not try to paint a thead titled Reasons to Keep Bargnani as being without any kind of agenda.

Please answer this:

There is still a large contingent of fans who support Bargnani. Why can't we have threads where can talk about him in a positive manner?

If anything positive of Bargnani is posted, the same group of posters jump on it and derail the thread. You are one of them.

This thread is about reasons to keep Bargnani. It's not asking if we should. Please tell me how your posts are on topic.

If people didn't post such weak arguments on reasons why Bargnani should be kept, then no one would post a rebuttal.

Simple analysis. With Ab's current role, this team is not winning anything. Perhaps if he's moved to a bench role next season, this team can develop some success. If not, the only thing left to do is trade him.

[Dr Positivity]

My argument still is this

Most people would agree when healthy with Reggie and Barbosa and JJ here, we play like a 26-27 win ish team

What do you think this team would win with David Anderson getting Bargnani's minutes? So Calderon, Bayless, Derozan, Barbosa, Weems, James Johnson, Amir, Davis, Reggie, and Anderson

That looks like a 13 W team to me. If that.

I'm not saying Bargs is worth 10-14 Ws on a good team. He might not be worth 4 on a great team. But on this team there is almost no question in my mind on this talentless squad he's making us better. Does that make him a great long term piece? Nah... but he's a decent placeholder.

If you truly believe Bargnani's defensive lapses outweigh his offensive contribution - try to convince me the above roster without him could come anywhere near 25 Ws. I really can't. That roster is a step above the D League

I truly believe Bargnani added 10 Ws to THIS roster.

It isn't a fair argument though. You are taking a semi-efficient scorer who can't play a lick of competent defense and is one of the worst rebounders for his position to ever play the game and replacing him with a scrub of a player who bounces around from team to team.

A fairer comparison would be to find a competent defensive C who's an average rebounder for the league (not superstar) but who's an absolute sieve on the court otherwise to the point where he may as well not even cross half court on the offensive end.

Say like, Marcus Camby or Dalembert or Kwame or Biedrins...

Well everyone agrees Camby is better than Bargnani. Naturally we'd be better with him but still not more than a 25-30 W team. We'd be worse with Kwame and Biedrins. They stink.

Dalembert is a good comparison actually. Would we be better with him starting full time? By my books we'd be slightly better defensively (Daly is an overrated defender mind you, his bball IQ sucks and he jumps at blocks to get them), and much, much worse offensively. He's not helping the Kings play better than us, at least.

I think Bargnani has more impact on the game than Dalembert for most teams. Either way him and Biedrins are 10 mil players like Bargnani. Slightly above average Cs cost money. At this point Biedrins is not a slightly above average C, though

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Well everyone agrees Camby is better than Bargnani. Naturally we'd be better with him but still not more than a 25-30 W team. We'd be worse with Kwame and Biedrins. They stink.

Dalembert is a good comparison actually. Would we be better with him starting full time? By my books we'd be slightly better defensively (Daly is an overrated defender mind you, his bball IQ sucks and he jumps at blocks to get them), and much, much worse offensively. He's not helping the Kings play better than us, at least.

I think Bargnani has more impact on the game than Dalembert for most teams. Either way him and Biedrins are 10 mil players like Bargnani. Slightly above average Cs cost money. At this point Biedrins is not a slightly above average C, though

I don't agree that Camby's value is much more than that of Bargs. For the same reasons some people overvalue Bargs because of the "20ppg", Camby's "11rpg" somehow has him at some type of additional value to fans.

He's an OK post defender but has always lacked the mass and strength to defend the bulkier Cs. He's an average help defender but gets over rated because of the highlight blocks, and he'll sacrifice team defensive rebounding position to grab anything and everything that comes off the rim. On offense, his shot mechanics are terrible and his release is extremely slow which gives defenses all kinds of time to recover. I would trust Reggie with the ball in his hands more than I'd trust Camby. There's a reason he's been passed around the NBA from team to team for nothing or as a throw-in on much bigger deals. IMO, Camby and Dalembert are the bizzaro world Bargs.

Edit: Does that mean this currently constructed Raps team would won/loss a significant amount more games than their current record? Probably not.

[strangespot]

And I think he can be a starter in this league. I mean, If a guy like Frye can be in a play-off team then why can't BArgs ?

Heh, Frye came off the bench for Phoenix in the playoffs. Collins and Lopez Brothers the Lesser got the starts.

my bad, sorry. I was actually talking about the current season... I knew they had a positive record but had no idea they were nowhere near a play off spot. but I guess that their current record in the west would easily translate in something like 40W 29L in the east

[strangespot]

So all because of an average player like Bargs you want us to emulate the SSOL Suns who haven't won a damn thing? For Bargs? Really? If you want to emulate a system that didn't work, at least do it for a player that deserves that kind of recognition.

Think about this for a second. Phoenix didn't go all SSOL because of a guy like Frye, they went SSOL because they found a once-in-a-generation PG in Nash (2 time MVP) who could facilitate that type of offense. Frye just fit in to the scheme and even then until this year Frye was playing less than 30 mins a game. In the playoffs they didn't even start him.

If we had a player like Nash on our hands I'd consider going the all-offense route (even though I'm fundamentally against that philosophy) because it would be worth it. I'd never go that route however because we have a guy like Frye. LOL, that''s just ridiculous.

and I didnt say to go that route because of Bargs or because of any particular player... just like PHX didnt go that route because of Frye...its about finding a style of play and as long as BC is TO's GM, it's probably going to be the offensive style. but you have to built it the right way. obviously Nash is one of a kind PG but its as obivious that a guy like Calderon is probably the most inadequate for this style as you could probably get in a PG.

and no, PHX may not have won a damn thing but at least they are a respected team in the NBA. not to mention that, and I am sorry to say that, for TO to become NBA champs it would take nothing short of a miracle. only a miracle would do it. its just the reality of the things, TO is the only franchise outside the US and it doesnt attract the real superstars (and by superstars I mean the guys who can lead you to a play off by themselves). the only player you probably had who came near to that was VC, but even with him, if TO would have won the championship it would have been a miracle.

[Neutral 123]

I don't know how this guy still has so many of us fooled. I'm starting to think he doesn't even eat Primo pasta and sauce.

[Junkball]

Reasons to keep Bargnani?

1. Higher draft picks

2. More rebounds for Reggie

3. Boost the self-esteem of the opposing teams

4. Keep Italian fans following the Raptors

5. Fanboys won't have to retire his jersey from their wardrobes

6. Keep the 3-point streak alive

7. We just can't judge him 'til he retires

8. Opposing GMs are only offering sugar-coated peanuts in exchange

9. He hasn't asked out of Toronto.

10. He is a two-time Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month award winner

[DG88]

I wish I never made this thread. I should have known people would take over it with their own agendas.

So this thread that you made never had an agenda? The OP had some flaws and people will be critical of what you wrote. If you couldn't handle that then may be this thread should not have been made in the first place.

[sanity]

Heaven forbid someone has a different opinion

I think we should keep him because he's cute!

[Death Knight]

I don't see why Bargnani still couldn't be a top notch scorer despite coming in off the bench and going up against backups and guaring backup PFs or Cs.

Past history would suggest that Bargnani sees this as a demotion, and would actually play even worse, regardless of who he is going up against, opposing starters or bench. Bargnani's confidence would dwindle down to the point of wanting to go back to Europe instead.

Please answer this:

There is still a large contingent of fans who support Bargnani. Why can't we have threads where can talk about him in a positive manner?

Threads are created for 2 reasons...
1. To create discussion
2. To provide information

Reasons to keep Bargnani does not provide information, so that opens it up for discussion. Quote frankly there wouldn't be much of a discussion if only positive things about Bargnani were allowed. There might be 1-2 pages maximum. It would quite frankly be hilarious to witness such a thing.

Poster 1: Bargnani 20pts baby!
Poster 2: Yup, amazing!

My argument still is this

Most people would agree when healthy with Reggie and Barbosa and JJ here, we play like a 26-27 win ish team

What do you think this team would win with David Anderson getting Bargnani's minutes? So Calderon, Bayless, Derozan, Barbosa, Weems, James Johnson, Amir, Davis, Reggie, and Anderson

That looks like a 13 W team to me. If that.

I'm not saying Bargs is worth 10-14 Ws on a good team. He might not be worth 4 on a great team. But on this team there is almost no question in my mind on this talentless squad he's making us better. Does that make him a great long term piece? Nah... but he's a decent placeholder.

If you truly believe Bargnani's defensive lapses outweigh his offensive contribution - try to convince me the above roster without him could come anywhere near 25 Ws. I really can't. That roster is a step above the D League

I truly believe Bargnani added 10 Ws to THIS roster.

Way to use a crappy replacement for Bargnani in Ryan Anderson in an attempt to prove such a point. Why can't we have Ryan Anderson instead?

*Sigh*

If by now people still can't realize that Bargnani hurts the team more than he helps, than there isn't much to talk about anymore.

BTW, am I the only one that notices most 6th man candidates are PGs, SGs, SFs? I can't think of a 6th man PF/C atm without doing some research. Teams may have a designated first big off the bench type player, but they aren't necessarily considered 6th.

[Too Late Crew]

Making him a 6th man would be just one more chance to see how unique Bargs really is! He would be the first #1 overal pick in NBA history to be made a full time 6th man before the age of 30!

He could average more 3s then any other 7 footer in NBA history, less rebounds than any 7 footer in NBA history and be the first #1 overall under 30 6th mna in NBA history..that's a whole lot of hiostory folks!