2011 Synergy D-stat rankings - Derozan D-stats pg. 11

[MikeM]

It's clear at this point that Bargnani has just given up on defence. The team blows. The coaching staff doesn't demand anything from him so he checks out.

On top of it all, he's easily one of the worst help defenders in the league and we've been playing him as our primary help defender for his whole career. Talk about (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

The only thing he can do passably is guard PFs one-on-one but only when he feels like it. The problem is that he's playing the C position so if he's guarding the PF, we have our own PF guarding a C. Again, (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

I would have loved to see Bargs at PF and Chandler at C. Bargs gets to guard PFs and since every team uses their PF as their big man scorer, Bargs would be playing very little help defence. And maybe he starts giving a **** with a real C yelling at him or something.

This is basically the worst situation possible for him to play defence. He's out of position on a bad team, with a weak coach who has no discernible defensive system. It's no wonder that dude has shut it down on defense. Obviously Bargnani has to take most of the blame here but he's not a franchise player so you can't expect him to start going all Garnett on the defensive end. This is why we have coaching and management.

Bargnani is basically a third option, scoring PF in the NBA. He's like a David West, Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis. Luis Scola type player. If you stick any of those guys at CENTER on this team, you'd see the same results. Hell, if you put Nowitzki at CENTER on this team, our D would be just as bad.

[The Main Event]

Put it this way, Rhett.

Yes, these don't include help defence beyond making sure that the player doesn't get burned on a pick and roll switch but the fact that there are this many big names on the list should give pause to what we think we know about defence period. If these guys aren't very good in these areas... what makes so many so sure they're making up for that with tremendously better help defence than Bargs? Why are these players given the benefit of the doubt?

DH-

This reasoning is really weird.

Bloody PHIL majors.

Break it down:

People maintain that Part X of a center's defense is much more important than Part Y, and that the better ones excel at part X. People further go on to say that Bargs is terrible at part X, and is as such a terrible defensive 5 even if he's meh at part Y.

Your rebuttal is to isolate Part Y, attempt to show that he's not terrible compared with some other bigs at Y...and from that extrapolate that he somehow must be under appreciated at X, and that others are getting the benefit of the doubt!?!?

A=/=B, so B=C =/= A=C.

[BorisDK1]

^ I really have to challenge the idea that there is such thing as a "primary help defender". Every player not guarding the ball is in a help situation; how that looks, as to how the coach wants the players guarding relative to the line of the ball, varies. Jay, in his first season, took his ideas from Kevin O'Neill, protected the paint first and dropped well off the line of the ball. He proceeded to allow the players to make an absolute mockery out of that fine idea. This year, he's taken his ideas from Coach Krzyzewski (pronounced "fraud", for those unfamiliar with Western Slavic pronounciations), and he's in full up-the-line/on-the-line denial and the players are making a mockery out of that, too.

My point being, basketball is a dynamic game and good defensive teams both help, and don't need to be helped much. Further, good offensive teams just keep picking on bad defenders and put them in situations where they have to make decisions. I think every team in the league is well aware that all they have to do is call out 1-5 ball screen and they'll get an easy score.

If it's true that Bargnani is really just kind of reserving his energy for a better team, trade him right away. Nobody with that attitude deserves to even take the floor. It's on Bargnani to be a leader - to be a man - to throw himself heart, soul and strength into every possession (or, at least, as much as possible in an 82-game schedule) and to do his damnedest to make this a good defensive team. If it's true that all he's lacking is the motivation, get rid of him now before he poisons the rest of the players with that despicable attitude.

[DreamTeam09]

QUESTION......

If Bargnani is a good/decent 1 on 1 defender, and even the posters who really dislike his game can admit that he is a decent/good 1 on 1 defender, and stats show that he is, why are we putting more stock into help defence??? I mean if every individual player could effectively give up less points than their man, help defence becomes less & less important. Seems like ppl are nit picking when it comes to him and I can't understand for the love of what reason. When I play basketball, my goal is to not let my man score, thats really all you can do out there. You can't worry about ur man not scoring, and the point gaurd, and every other position on the floor. Yea obviously you try and help out where you can because it is a team game, but if HELP defence is the sole reason why you dislike bargnani to the point where you want him out of the city in any which way, then you are not in the real world. In the real world, theres only a couple of players who DO IT ALL UP TO THE STANDARDS of most, and most of those players are already tied up and really have Toronto last on their list of destinations.

#2 If HELP defence is your only real concern with bargs, why isn't it an option that we put a better help defender beside him??? I mean if its the end of the world when Bargs doesn't help his team out but its ok/acceptable that no1 helps him?????

[Black Milk]

QUESTION......

If Bargnani is a good/decent 1 on 1 defender, and even the posters who really dislike his game can admit that he is a decent/good 1 on 1 defender, and stats show that he is, why are we putting more stock into help defence??? ?

Wow. You really don't understand the game of basketball if you don't know why help defense from the C position (as well as PF) is important.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Team defense is more important from all positions in today's NBA because handchecking is no longer allowed - along with a few other reasons, but that's probably the biggest one and most of them are rule related.

I also think you need to take a look at the numbers again, dreamteam. Andrea isn't really a good 1-on-1 defender. He simply isn't utterly dreadful at it. He's still definitely below average at it for a centre, but it just so happens that there are other guys out there that are worse and his deficiency in that respect doesn't cripple the team. He's a functional 1-on-1 defender but it definitely isn't a strength of his. His team defense...

[DreamTeam09]

QUESTION......

If Bargnani is a good/decent 1 on 1 defender, and even the posters who really dislike his game can admit that he is a decent/good 1 on 1 defender, and stats show that he is, why are we putting more stock into help defence??? ?

Wow. You really don't understand the game of basketball if you don't know why help defense from the C position (as well as PF) is important.

Hey don't only take parts of what I said to try and discredit my basketball knowledge. A few sentences down in my original post I clearly said I understand the importance of helping out because basketball is obviously A TEAM GAME.... Even the part that u quoted me saying has nothing to do with what u said. I said why are we putting more stock in help defence over man to man defence. If every player on the team was a better man to man defender HELP defence would not be such a big priority. Thats just the truth.

[MikeM]

^ I really have to challenge the idea that there is such thing as a "primary help defender". Every player not guarding the ball is in a help situation; how that looks, as to how the coach wants the players guarding relative to the line of the ball, varies. Jay, in his first season, took his ideas from Kevin O'Neill, protected the paint first and dropped well off the line of the ball. He proceeded to allow the players to make an absolute mockery out of that fine idea. This year, he's taken his ideas from Coach Krzyzewski (pronounced "fraud", for those unfamiliar with Western Slavic pronounciations), and he's in full up-the-line/on-the-line denial and the players are making a mockery out of that, too.

My point being, basketball is a dynamic game and good defensive teams both help, and don't need to be helped much. Further, good offensive teams just keep picking on bad defenders and put them in situations where they have to make decisions. I think every team in the league is well aware that all they have to do is call out 1-5 ball screen and they'll get an easy score.

If it's true that Bargnani is really just kind of reserving his energy for a better team, trade him right away. Nobody with that attitude deserves to even take the floor. It's on Bargnani to be a leader - to be a man - to throw himself heart, soul and strength into every possession (or, at least, as much as possible in an 82-game schedule) and to do his damnedest to make this a good defensive team. If it's true that all he's lacking is the motivation, get rid of him now before he poisons the rest of the players with that despicable attitude.

I shouldn't have said primary help defender. What I really meant was defender that is in position to help the most. It's just the way the game is now. Very few PFs stay under the rim nowadays so if you're guarding PFs as opposed to Cs, you're less likely to be asked to step up from under the basket to stop a dribble drive.

When Bargnani defends Cs he's often the only guy under the rim when teams penetrate. That's a disaster. I'd rather that guy be a real C.

I mean, there has to be a reason why these teams can employ below average/bad help defense PFs and still be successful. Boozer, Dirk, West, Scola, Lewis, Hansbrough, Krstic, even Mbah A Moute can't protect the rim.

[DreamTeam09]

Team defense is more important from all positions in today's NBA because handchecking is no longer allowed - along with a few other reasons, but that's probably the biggest one and most of them are rule related.

I also think you need to take a look at the numbers again, dreamteam. Andrea isn't really a good 1-on-1 defender. He simply isn't utterly dreadful at it. He's still definitely below average at it for a centre, but it just so happens that there are other guys out there that are worse and his deficiency in that respect doesn't cripple the team. He's a functional 1-on-1 defender but it definitely isn't a strength of his. His team defense...

Cool post entierly, and fine I for 1 can live with that. If he doesn't cripple the team as you noted then why the bad clout around him as if he does.... If he doesn't cripple the team then he obviously has to be helping them out in some sorta way.... So why can't we win with him ,or work with him, or have him as a part of this team going ahead???

[Reignman]

Team defense is more important from all positions in today's NBA because handchecking is no longer allowed - along with a few other reasons, but that's probably the biggest one and most of them are rule related.

I also think you need to take a look at the numbers again, dreamteam. Andrea isn't really a good 1-on-1 defender. He simply isn't utterly dreadful at it. He's still definitely below average at it for a centre, but it just so happens that there are other guys out there that are worse and his deficiency in that respect doesn't cripple the team. He's a functional 1-on-1 defender but it definitely isn't a strength of his. His team defense...

Cool post entierly, and fine I for 1 can live with that. If he doesn't cripple the team as you noted then why the bad clout around him as if he does.... If he doesn't cripple the team then he obviously has to be helping them out in some sorta way.... So why can't we win with him ,or work with him, or have him as a part of this team going ahead???

You keep forgetting that 1:1 defense for a big man is just a small part, there's also help D, rebounding and shotblocking and he's poor in all of those.

[BorisDK1]

QUESTION......

If Bargnani is a good/decent 1 on 1 defender, and even the posters who really dislike his game can admit that he is a decent/good 1 on 1 defender, and stats show that he is, why are we putting more stock into help defence???

His one-on-one defense is no longer something he's doing well: he's poor even in this regard.

And if that weren't enough, he's also very inefficient offensively so there is no reason in the world to keep him around, unless we really think losing is kinda fun or cool or sets us apart in some way.

[DreamTeam09]

QUESTION......

If Bargnani is a good/decent 1 on 1 defender, and even the posters who really dislike his game can admit that he is a decent/good 1 on 1 defender, and stats show that he is, why are we putting more stock into help defence???

His one-on-one defense is no longer something he's doing well: he's poor even in this regard.

And if that weren't enough, he's also very inefficient offensively so there is no reason in the world to keep him around, unless we really think losing is kinda fun or cool or sets us apart in some way.

I dont get how you think 22pts on 45% from fg, 34% from 3 and 81.9 from the ft while taking 18fga is inefficient. Inefficient is a horrible word to use imo. It might not be the greatest, but it isnt the worse by far!!!. And I disagree with you that is 1 on 1 D has gotten worse.

[BorisDK1]

I shouldn't have said primary help defender. What I really meant was defender that is in position to help the most. It's just the way the game is now. Very few PFs stay under the rim nowadays so if you're guarding PFs as opposed to Cs, you're less likely to be asked to step up from under the basket to stop a dribble drive.

When Bargnani defends Cs he's often the only guy under the rim when teams penetrate. That's a disaster. I'd rather that guy be a real C.

I mean, there has to be a reason why these teams can employ below average/bad help defense PFs and still be successful. Boozer, Dirk, West, Scola, Lewis, Hansbrough, Krstic, even Mbah A Moute can't protect the rim.

This is becoming such a perimeter league that the ball screen is the one thing you have to be able to guard at a high level or you're cooked. And no team is going to fail to notice that slug Andrea out there, mouth agape in confusion and eyes glazed over, and not just assault him with endless ball screens and get a ton of easy scores out of that. Perimeter players are...well, I won't say they're so good, but they see so many possessions that you absolutely have to be able to defend the ball screen and whether you call Bargnani a C or a PF he's absolutely going to get this team murdered.

Enough of the excuse-making, enough of the imagining altering the entire team just to meet him with his needs: he's not good enough to deserve that, and it won't work even if he were. Just get rid of him, already.

[Reignman]

QUESTION......

If Bargnani is a good/decent 1 on 1 defender, and even the posters who really dislike his game can admit that he is a decent/good 1 on 1 defender, and stats show that he is, why are we putting more stock into help defence???

His one-on-one defense is no longer something he's doing well: he's poor even in this regard.

And if that weren't enough, he's also very inefficient offensively so there is no reason in the world to keep him around, unless we really think losing is kinda fun or cool or sets us apart in some way.

I dont get how you think 22pts on 45% from fg, 34% from 3 and 81.9 from the ft while taking 18fga is inefficient. Inefficient is a horrible word to use imo. It might not be the greatest, but it isnt the worse by far!!!. And I disagree with you that is 1 on 1 D has gotten worse.

I doesn't sound like you know what the league wide average TS% is, you're just enamoured with those raw numbers because they look good on the surface.

[sanity]

Is one-on-one defense in the post something players go out of their way to be good at, or is it (mostly) from covering your man and being in right spot? I can see how perimeter defense is crucial and something a lot of players struggle with, but one-on-one defense in the post seems more like just finding your position between your cover and the rim. Bargnani has been doing that relatively well early in the season and even last season, but in the past few months he does struggle even with that. He can cover other finesse/jump-shooting bigs pretty well from 12' out, but in the post he rarely holds his ground

[BorisDK1]

I dont get how you think 22pts on 45% from fg, 34% from 3 and 81.9 from the ft while taking 18fga is inefficient. Inefficient is a horrible word to use imo. It might not be the greatest, but it isnt the worse by far!!!. And I disagree with you that is 1 on 1 D has gotten worse.

No offensive rebounding, few free throw attempts, poor 3 point shooting, negligible assists, way too many turnovers, mediocre shooting from the floor. This combines to give him an ORat of 103.8, which is well below league average. In other words, he's inefficient.

League average ORat (points produced per 100 individual possessions) = 107.1, Andrea 103.8. So, inefficient.

You can "disagree" with me saying his defense is worse, but you have little foundation: I have documented every single possession for this team the past two years. In 2009-10, Andrea had a stop% of .552; this year, .452. A .100 drop, which is unfathomable. Why? Because he's become really, really lazy to go along with his other key attributes of stupidity and ponderous slowness.

[dacrusha]

I dont get how you think 22pts on 45% from fg, 34% from 3 and 81.9 from the ft while taking 18fga is inefficient. Inefficient is a horrible word to use imo. It might not be the greatest, but it isnt the worse by far!!!. And I disagree with you that is 1 on 1 D has gotten worse.

No offensive rebounding, few free throw attempts, poor 3 point shooting, negligible assists, way too many turnovers, mediocre shooting from the floor. This combines to give him an ORat of 103.8, which is well below league average. In other words, he's inefficient.

League average ORat (points produced per 100 individual possessions) = 107.1, Andrea 103.8. So, inefficient.

You can "disagree" with me saying his defense is worse, but you have little foundation: I have documented every single possession for this team the past two years. In 2009-10, Andrea had a stop% of .552; this year, .452. A .100 drop, which is unfathomable. Why? Because he's become really, really lazy to go along with his other key attributes of stupidity and ponderous slowness.

Not sure where you got .552% stop% from because he was horrendous on D last year as well.

You're championing the 'Bargs sucks at D' wagon a couple years late.

[Kohanz]

I know I'm coming late here and I'm sure this point has been made, but I'll just re-iterate:

Most level-headed posters who are anti-Bargnani (including myself) will tell you right away, his man defense is not what sets him apart (negatively) compared to other bigs, which is what these stats confirm. It is his help defense that is absolutely terrible. Now if statistics showed that he wasn't in a league of his own when it comes to help defense, that would be a revelation.

[BorisDK1]

Not sure where you got .552% stop% from because he was horrendous on D last year as well.

You're championing the 'Bargs sucks at D' wagon a couple years late.

I "got that" from documenting what happened, not making it up as I go along.

Bargnani last year did a very good job defending one-on-one in the post and did a very good job containing point guards on switches on ball screens and did a good job closing out to shooters on the perimeter in rotation. Sure, he was still useless in defending the paint but he did those other things (which are just as important) much better than he is this year.

Was he a good defender last year? No. Was he still considerably better than this year? Yes. Is the world full of greys as well as black and white? Yes.

[ansoncarter]

why did you document every posession for this team for the last two years?

anyways, if what your saying is true and that bargnanis is alright on the perimeter, or at least better, why has bc/triano not tried him at sf for stretches? I've been wondering this for like 3 years now

wouldn't have to worry about his rebounding anymore and his d would be improved just by virtue of it not mattering as much. Assuming they just stick him on the weakest perimeter swing-man. Most teams have one who does nothing but sit in the corner as a threat to teams trying to cheat toward the paint. Baloney can cover that guy