Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

[Reignman]

You guys are already making rash judgements on both Kanter and Biyombo and just because one player had one crazy game with a triple double how would you know that it could've been a fluke?

It's really the same thing with Kanter who became really known after dominating Hoops Summit himself. People might say Kanter dominated the U18 Euro Championships, but what you have to remember is that when you are bigger and stronger than everyone like Kanter was, it raises questions. I've seen young players in basketball and other sports who were thought to become huge stars but failed when their main strengths of superior size and athleticism were no longer there. And it's not like Biyombo only had one good game. I've obviously seen him only once, but NBA scouts must have watched all his games in ACB by now.

All the measurements used when discussing Kanter are from age 16/17, it's not inconceivable that he's grown from his 6'10" height. He already has enough size to play the 5 but with a bit of growth over the last 2 years it might turn out that his measurements are actually quite good. I wouldn't be surprised if he's 6'11"+ with a wing span of 7'2"+.

Kanter didn't look 6'11"+ to me when he was standing next to Terrence Jones.

At the sametime, all of the more dominant big men in the game were dominating people from a young age and continued to do that in the pros.

I think it's foolish to penalize a guy for dominating people in his OWN age group. And it's not like he was jumping over people, he was doing it with skill, footwork and understanding how to use his size to create space. Those are important attributes for a big man and will actually help him in his career. I'd be a lot more concerned if he was just jumping over people and swatting shots or grabbing rebounds just cuz he's taller/more athletic than the rest.

Also, you might be right about his size but like I said, it's not inconceivable that he's grown in the last couple of years. I wouldn't be shocked at all if his measurements come back looking really good.

[5DOM]

I'm not saying we should completely ignore what he was able to achieve at the junior level. It's just that it's hard to project how much of what he was able to do against the undersized and weaker competition can transfer well into the NBA. I guess you could say the same for any player, but I think it's an even bigger concern for Kanter who no one has seen go against a body that resembles an NBA 5. BTW didn't someone say even Koufos dominated U18?

[Reignman]

It's a shame we didn't see Kanter at all in college. If he were able to dominate the competition there i guess it would help people believe in him a bit more. Then again, he did dominate the best big in college this year (Sullinger) in the hoops summit.

It seems his teammates all think he'd be the best big in the NCAA, particularily Harrellson, but it's hard to come to any conclusions from that.

[5DOM]

Yeah Kentucky could have won the tourney too. It really is a shame that all we'll be able to see are some minute-long highlights of his workout

[Alfred]

Sebastian Pruiti has a great scouting video segment on Derrick Williams' strengths and weaknesses on DraftExpress:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Der ... iams-5811/

[NH]

I don't want another undersized C in Biyombo. Ed Davis is already a bit undersized at the 4 spot. a 6'8 guy who can play D without much offense? we already have him; his name is Joey Dorsey. Joey was a beast for Memphis; blocking and pulling boards. Do you want him back? Just cause a C can block lots of shots in the lower levels doesn't mean he is Mutumbo. Alabi was a good defensive player in college but he can't do much in the NBA.

[Strategist1]

If he's in fact 18, then he should still be growing. He could very well wind up being 6'11 or even 7 foot. Either way, if you watch some of his videos, his wing span makes up for this.

[Reignman]

Can anyone who has watched DWill extensively shed a bit more light on his 3 pt shooting? I see he took 74 attempts and hit them at a beastly % but is this something you'd consider a strength of his? Does he take them off the bounce or catch/shoot? And is this something he did in his freshmen year as well?

The reason I ask is that we're going to need our 3 to be able to shoot with range and shoot well.

[Alfred]

If Williams can be a 3, then defensive rebounding isn't going to be a huge issue, and the fact that he turns it over a lot could be alleviated if he isn't the #1, 2 and 3 option at the offensive end, like he was in Arizona. One of his strengths would be slightly mitigated though, as he would no longer be able use his speed advantage over other 4s on the offensive end. He'd probably be a bit average speed-wise as a 3 in the NBA.

I'm not worried about post-up opportunities as a 3, because you can get a lot of quality looks in the post for a SF, and his shooting ability with his solid mechanics will most likely make the jump to the NBA as well.

Maybe I'm looking at things too optimistically, but I don't really see any fundamental reason why Williams couldn't be an effective SF in the NBA.

[MinnyMo]

I don't want another undersized C in Biyombo. Ed Davis is already a bit undersized at the 4 spot. a 6'8 guy who can play D without much offense? we already have him; his name is Joey Dorsey. Joey was a beast for Memphis; blocking and pulling boards. Do you want him back? Just cause a C can block lots of shots in the lower levels doesn't mean he is Mutumbo. Alabi was a good defensive player in college but he can't do much in the NBA.

Except Biyombo is leading the the ACB league of Europe, the most competitive league in the world outside of the NBA, in blocked shots and rebounding and hes doing it in only 17 MPG while also being 18. He's also 6' 7.75" w/o shoes, so hes closer to 6' 9" with shoes on than 6' 8". He also has a wing span 7" longer than Davis, 3" longer standing reach, and weighs about 20 pounds more, so regardless if he shorter or what ever lame excuse you have for his height, he fits better at C than Davis does currently.

[Kevin Willis]

A good way to judge Kanter is the impact he had on other players in Kentucky. He made them better. You don't do that by being a nominal player. If he can improve Harrelson(??) by that much he must've been schooling him in practise to get better. Kanter will be a good player. He's better than a Cole Aldrich or Solomon Alabi or a Thabeet. All bigs with upside.

Biyombo I like because he's a beast. Under Reggie I think he has the tools and mindset to dominate. Either way you can't really lose because neither player is good enough to change the mindset of our team next year.

[Alfred]

Can anyone who has watched DWill extensively shed a bit more light on his 3 pt shooting? I see he took 74 attempts and hit them at a beastly % but is this something you'd consider a strength of his? Does he take them off the bounce or catch/shoot? And is this something he did in his freshmen year as well?

The reason I ask is that we're going to need our 3 to be able to shoot with range and shoot well.

Well, Pruiti praised the mechanics on his jumpshot:

- Outside Shooting: For his height, Derrick Williams might be one of the best shooters at his position, shooting 56.8% from the three point line on 74 attempts. He is also top six nationally in the two advanced shooting metrics, posting an eFG% of 65.0% (6th nationally) and a TS% of 69.0% (4th nationally). In terms of his form, Williams has a very smooth stroke that is easy to repeat, no matter if he is catching and shooting or taking a shot off of the dribble. He takes off and lands in the same area, and his footwork is very good.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Der ... z1JyoCmaSx
http://www.draftexpress.com

[bboyskinnylegs]

How is Biyombo undersized? He weighs 3 lbs more than Dwight did at the same age (243 vs. 240, with a 4.5% body fat%), his wingspan is 2.5" longer at 7'7", and his standing reach is 0.5" smaller at 9'3".

Dorsey, on the other hand, was 6'7.25" in shoes, with a 7'1.75" wingspan, and 8'11" standing reach. He weighed 265 when he was drafted, but that was with 9% body fat (so twice what Biyombo's is). Also, Dorsey was 6-7 years older than Biyombo is now when he was drafted.

[5DOM]

sunny should know it the best, but from what I've seen I think it's more latter than former. He shoots if there is space - sometimes created by him - and he make them at a very high percentage like you said. I don't think he's the one you want to give the ball to if you NEED a 3 pointer at the end of the game. It can only be a strength though IMO

[Reignman]

If Williams can be a 3, then defensive rebounding isn't going to be a huge issue, and the fact that he turns it over a lot could be alleviated if he isn't the #1, 2 and 3 option at the offensive end, like he was in Arizona. One of his strengths would be slightly mitigated though, as he would no longer be able use his speed advantage over other 4s on the offensive end. He'd probably be a bit average speed-wise as a 3 in the NBA.

I'm not worried about post-up opportunities as a 3, because you can get a lot of quality looks in the post for a SF, and his shooting ability with his solid mechanics will most likely make the jump to the NBA as well.

Maybe I'm looking at things too optimistically, but I don't really see any fundamental reason why Williams couldn't be an effective SF in the NBA.

TBH, my main concern with him is his ability to defend NBA 3s, if he is then great, if not then I'll be pissed.

On offense I don't see any problems as long as his 3 pt shot remains a strength.

[Indeed]

A couple of things about Kanter:

All the measurements used when discussing Kanter are from age 16/17, it's not inconceivable that he's grown from his 6'10" height. He already has enough size to play the 5 but with a bit of growth over the last 2 years it might turn out that his measurements are actually quite good. I wouldn't be surprised if he's 6'11"+ with a wing span of 7'2"+.

Secondly, if he has improved his game at all over the course of not playing this year from where he was at age 17, then it's a wrap, he'll be the best big in this draft EASILY. He's also working with Grover and has quite a bit of time to polish up his game.

Lastly, out of all the bigs in the draft he's the one that could make an impact immediately. Biyombo is going to be a major project and the bust factor is strong with this one. I'm always weary of run/jump athletes that make such a huge impression in one game, reminds me of Joe Alexander. The guy really doesn't have any true skills right now. I'm alot higher on Val but even he is a major project and contract issues might restrict him from coming here for a year or 2. I'd rather players develop with us in their formative years rather than overseas.

Anyway, all-in-all, I don't think anyone can definitively say who will be the best of the 3 and the workouts will shed a tonne of light on that.

Interesting. You don't like Bargnani (very skillful big), but you prefer Val over Biyombo. Very unlike you though.

[Reignman]

A couple of things about Kanter:

All the measurements used when discussing Kanter are from age 16/17, it's not inconceivable that he's grown from his 6'10" height. He already has enough size to play the 5 but with a bit of growth over the last 2 years it might turn out that his measurements are actually quite good. I wouldn't be surprised if he's 6'11"+ with a wing span of 7'2"+.

Secondly, if he has improved his game at all over the course of not playing this year from where he was at age 17, then it's a wrap, he'll be the best big in this draft EASILY. He's also working with Grover and has quite a bit of time to polish up his game.

Lastly, out of all the bigs in the draft he's the one that could make an impact immediately. Biyombo is going to be a major project and the bust factor is strong with this one. I'm always weary of run/jump athletes that make such a huge impression in one game, reminds me of Joe Alexander. The guy really doesn't have any true skills right now. I'm alot higher on Val but even he is a major project and contract issues might restrict him from coming here for a year or 2. I'd rather players develop with us in their formative years rather than overseas.

Anyway, all-in-all, I don't think anyone can definitively say who will be the best of the 3 and the workouts will shed a tonne of light on that.

Interesting. You don't like Bargnani (very skillful big), but you prefer Val over Biyombo. Very unlike you though.

I don't like Bargnani because he doesn't play D and he doesn't rebound, that's not an issue with any of these bigs (Kanter/Val/Biyombo) because they all defend/rebound to some extent.

I like Kanter the most because he has some polished offensive skills, he can play out of the low post and even face up. I hear his passing game out of the post is pretty good as well. Seems to be the most well-rounded of the 3. Only concern is where his game is after a long lay off.

Val I like because he has the size/length and has been putting up some beastly numbers in limited mins. My issue with him is that he has fouling issues (which will get worse in the NBA) and he's a liablity on offense. He does shoot a great % at the FT line so at least we know he has some touch.

Biyombo is too much of a gamble. In 1 game he went from a nobody to a somebody. At this point he's basically a run/jump athlete with great length. I don't see any skill whatsover and wouldn't be the least bit suprised to see him bust. This is a very long term project.

Again, it's pretty simple, if you're a big man that can rebound/defend, then I'll probably be a fan. Unfortunately Bargs never figured that part out and now he's being run out of town, to be expected. This is Toronto, we love hard-nosed players.

[Strategist1]

Biyombo is too much of a gamble. In 1 game he went from a nobody to a somebody. At this point he's basically a run/jump athlete with great length. I don't see any skill whatsover and wouldn't be the least bit suprised to see him bust. This is a very long term project.

Again, it's pretty simple, if you're a big man that can rebound/defend, then I'll probably be a fan. Unfortunately Bargs never figured that part out and now he's being run out of town, to be expected. This is Toronto, we love hard-nosed players.

If Biyombo dominates in the workouts and consistently gets good reviews from the lottery teams, would you still think he's a big gamble?

I don't think its a coincidence he put up very productive numbers in his 1st year in one of the top leagues in Europe. IF the workouts reveal that he's legit, I think he'd be in serious consideration as a top 5 pick.

[5DOM]

Anyone know much about Kanter's defense? I've obviously watched Valanciunas' vids and he's going to be an even longer project than Biyombo will be IMO.

[Reignman]

Anyone know much about Kanter's defense? I've obviously watched Valanciunas' vids and he's going to be an even longer project than Biyombo will be IMO.

From what I've heard Kanter isn't a shotblocker but he rebounds really well and rotates really well. 2 things we desperately need from the C spot. On defense I see him as a Perkins type of defender.

Which kind of works for us because he and Ed will compliment each other well.