Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

Post #981 » by **JYD** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:31 pm

Actually I think Kanter may have done well performance-wise in the NCAA, but been exposed in the sense there would be ample opportunity to point out his weaknesses and limitations. That's what I was agreeing with.

As for the below the rim guys you mentioned ATL, they're mostly power forwards and mostly poor defenders (and even so I'd argue they all have traits like length/quickness going for them). Brand and Jefferson are closer to C's, but they both also have good length, are quicker, and get off the floor well enough to throw it down with ease. Meanwhile even when wide open, Kanter tends to lay if off the glass and looks like he needs a pretty decent head of steam to dunk comfortably.

I guess the argument could be made that Kanter will make a better PF than C, though I think he'll have quickness issues guarding PFs. Either way a PF is the last position we're going to draft, unless it's a top-tier/can't miss prospect like Derrick Williams who will have value should we draft and dangle him.

Anyway I don't think BC will consider Kanter...I don't think he'd take a ground-bound 'C' when there are 2 others who possess much better mobility and length available, and have proven to be effective on a higher level.

SkywalkerAC · Post #982 » by **SkywalkerAC** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:41 pm

back to biyombo, i marvel at how big he seems on the court. you can see that he's not tall but his arms and the way he plays and moves even is very ... big. almost too big, like he reminds me of oden or something, but still, the guy is a beast out there. he's definitely a 5 offensively. ideally you'd probably pair him with a perimeter big with good size, in the okur mold if you will;)

9'3 counts for something. if you can use it. is biyombo one of the few that can? i hope so. i really do.

you start throwing out intense, athletic lineups like Bayless/Demar/Johnson/Davis/Biyombo and you fortify that with scorers and distributors, and sooner or later you're going to start winning.

i think bryan has to be licking his chops. you know he wants a decent centre, he's said as much. triano is asking for defensive players. the players are asking for defensive players.

you better believe that BC is taking a long look at young Bismack and pondering that he might yet be able to salvage Andrea by drafting a defensive bull to show him the way.

I truly hope he's good enough to warrant a selection and from the footage i've seen there's a chance he's at that level in this draft.

is there anyone that might select him before us? Washington maybe but i think Kanter is the better fit for them. Cleveland no. Twolves could use him but i think they're hoping for a little more star power for their tank efforts.

Raps have a gaping vacancy in the beast department. i would absolutely love to come out of the lockout with that position filled. the good ones you have to draft. hopefully Bismack is a good one.

Komodo · Post #983 » by **Komodo** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:51 pm

Biyombo's age is the main concern and I don't think we'll ever determine exactly how old he is. I would suspect whatever we find will be within 2-3 years of his actual age. That's not too reassuring considering age is one of the most important indicators of potential. I'm intrigued but the age thing is kind of sketchy.

xprt · Post #984 » by **xprt** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:58 pm

I think choosing C for raptors it depends what do the raptors really needs? For me all 3 top c's in the draft are likely to become:
Kanter - offensive minded, high to average on offence, average to below average on deffence
JV - plays both ends, from average to over average on offence, from average to over average on deffence
Biyombo - deffence minded, below average to terrible on offence, from average to high on deffence
So what do raptors really need? Do they want player with with highest potential on offence or defence? Or maybe a guy who probably will not shine on one end but will give solid effort on both?

Reignman · Post #985 » by **Reignman** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:59 pm

Wham! wrote:I pretty much agree with all you said there Rapsfan, it feels like Kanter is really coasting on past performance here. And I'll wager we don't see him work out against either of the 2 C's discussed as top picks.

I just find it strange that so many like him so much..I mean if we want a C there are 2 others there in Jonas V and Biyombo..both long guys who don't lack lift and can move pretty well, putting up good numbers in a good league with physical Cs.

So you knock Kanter but sing the praises of two guys who have shown very little actual basketball skill? Ok.

Kanter's athleticism/speed is at least average.
Kanter's height/length/weight are well above the requisites for a C (He was measured a year ago at 6'11" with shoes, wing span of 7'1" and 260lbs)
Kanter's skill level on offense is above average (great footwork in the post, face up game and J out to 18')
Kanter has very good awareness on rotations and has been a pretty good shotblocker in the past.

Biyombo is purely a run/jump athlete with above average length, that's it. There's very little basketball skill in his game right now.

Val is similar but seems to have a better touch.

Could they be better than Kanter? Possibly, but the risk factor is quite a bit higher because they are green when it comes to actual skill.

Two things concern me with your posts on Kanter. First is that you seem misinformed about his measurements and his athleticism. Secondly, you seem to be dragging Hoffa into this discussion when there is NO comparison.

Like you don't think Kanter is worthy of a high pick, I believe if Kanter played the season he'd be in the discussion as the best big in college along with Sullinger. The kid is advanced when it comes to skill level and nothing in physical abilities is below average.

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't want to come off as being absolutely sure, I'm just going by what was said about him prior to this year and then putting the puzzle together based on what scouts, coaches and teammates have said about his time in Kentucky.

The workouts will shed a tonne of light on him but I wouldn't be surprised to hear teams rave about him as the draft process / workouts play out.

Him not playing this year might actually work to our benefit it we don't luck out with a top 2 pick. Considering what he did to Sullinger just a year ago it's possible he would've been viewed as a top pick in this draft.

Reignman · Post #986 » by **Reignman** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:01 pm

xprt wrote:I think choosing C for raptors it depends what do the raptors really needs? For me all 3 top c's in the draft are likely to become:
Kanter - offensive minded, high to average on offence, average to below average on deffence
JV - plays both ends, from average to over average on offence, from average to over average on deffence
Biyombo - deffence minded, below average to terrible on offence, from average to high on deffence
So what do raptors really need? Do they want player with with highest potential on offence or defence? Or maybe a guy who probably will not shine on one end but will give solid effort on both?

I don't think Kanter's D is going to be below average under any circumstance. I think he's a smarter defender than both Val and definitely Biyombo who rely on their athleticism/motor rather than skill.

Right now, he projects as the best all-around big man in this draft.

McFurious1 · Post #987 » by **McFurious1** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:16 pm

If we end up with Kanter I'd be happy as he looks to be the best all around big. That doesn't mean I do have my concern's about him, but hopefully he can mke up for his lack of athleticism with his size and bbiq.

wanker · Post #988 » by **wanker** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:17 pm

Can we open up another thread for people to circle-jerk around Biyombo? I'm sick of coming to this thread and reading this ****. There is absolutely no chance Biyombo is even considered at the Raptors' pick. Are people that **** clueless?

Reignman · Post #989 » by **Reignman** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:24 pm

wanker wrote:Can we open up another thread for people to circle-jerk around Biyombo? I'm sick of coming to this thread and reading this ****. There is absolutely no chance Biyombo is even considered at the Raptors' pick. Are people that **** clueless?

Yeah, the biyombo hype is kind of ridiculous. He does have elite length and athleticism but that's where it ends. Kid has no basketball skills.

Honestly, how would a guy like Whiteside do in the ACB. His length is even more elite than Biyombo's and his athleticism is just on par. Hell, he's about 6" taller than him too. The man blocked over 5 shots per game for Marshall. Hell, how would a guy like Larry Sanders do? Same thing, elite athleticism, length and blocked a ton of shots in college. And it's not like Biyombo lit up the ACB, he played only 17 mins per game. I wonder why?

Whoever takes Biyombo in the top 10 will likely regret it.

Komodo · Post #990 » by **Komodo** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:45 pm

Yeah, I don't agree with the Hoffa comparisons for Kanter at all. They're both below-the-rim players, but that's it. Kanter is one of, if not the youngest player in the draft. But it is hard to envision how he would have fared at Kentucky. I think it's likely he would have justified his status as a top-10 prospect - but with Barnes/Jones/Sullinger out - Kanter jumps into the top-5 discussion by default.

Reignman · Post #991 » by **Reignman** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:51 pm

komodo19 wrote:Yeah, I don't agree with the Hoffa comparisons for Kanter at all. They're both below-the-rim players, but that's it. Kanter is one of, if not the youngest player in the draft. But it is hard to envision how he would have fared at Kentucky. I think it's likely he would have justified his status as a top-10 prospect - but with Barnes/Jones/Sullinger out - Kanter jumps into the top-5 discussion by default.

TBH, I don't think Kanter is as vertically challenged as Hoffa, not even close. Just cuz he plays a certain style doesn't mean he's limited when it comes to lift.

For a good comparison, just check out the way Cousins plays. He's the best offensive comparison for Kanter. Very rarely do you see DMC throwing down monster jams, what he does is he uses his footwork in the post with go to moves/ counter moves and leaves his defender behind and he just lays it up.

It's more of a style of play rather than a lack of lift. Now are they athletic like McGee or Jordan? Of course not, but they are better basketball players and C is the spot where IQ can make a huge difference.

bboyskinnylegs · Post #992 » by **bboyskinnylegs** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:52 pm

I don't think Whiteside's athleticism is on par with Biyombo, however, even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it is, Whiteside (who was 2 years older at the time he was drafted) weighed 227 lbs at the combine (vs. Biyombo's 243lbs. now). His only advantage is that his standing reach is 2 inches bigger at 9'5" vs 9'3". But as we've seen with Alabi (who also has a standing reach of 9'5"), the size/athleticism is much more important. Whiteside got by being a giant swatting shots in the Conference USA... and even there, he often got backed down in the post by guys like Jerome Jordan.

Whiteside’s weaknesses as a prospect are often just as glaring as his strengths. His main issue revolves around his extremely underdeveloped frame, which hinders him on the offensive end, but more importantly makes him a constant target for post-up plays and renders him an exceptionally poor man to man defender against average college big men. Whiteside gives up deep position in the post with the greatest of ease--seemingly not even fighting back at times-- getting out of his stance quickly, bringing his hands down, and downright giving up on plays, thinking he’ll simply be able to recover and come up with a block, which at this level can indeed be the case on occasion.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Has ... z1K4TQILOe
http://www.draftexpress.com

Aside from their length/shotblocking ability, there isn't a whole lot that's similar between these two prospects. Biyombo brings a lot more defensively imo.

Reignman · Post #993 » by **Reignman** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:54 pm

bboyskinnylegs wrote:I don't think Whiteside's athleticism is on par with Biyombo, however, even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it is, Whiteside (who was 2 years older at the time he was drafted) weighed 227 lbs at the combine (vs. Biyombo's 243lbs. now). His only advantage is that his standing reach is 2 inches bigger at 9'5" vs 9'3". But as we've seen with Alabi (who also has a standing reach of 9'5"), the size/athleticism is much more important. Whiteside got by swatting shots in the Conference USA... and even there, he often got backed down in the post by guys like Jerome Jordan.
Whiteside’s weaknesses as a prospect are often just as glaring as his strengths. His main issue revolves around his extremely underdeveloped frame, which hinders him on the offensive end, but more importantly makes him a constant target for post-up plays and renders him an exceptionally poor man to man defender against average college big men. Whiteside gives up deep position in the post with the greatest of ease--seemingly not even fighting back at times-- getting out of his stance quickly, bringing his hands down, and downright giving up on plays, thinking he’ll simply be able to recover and come up with a block, which at this level can indeed be the case on occasion.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Has ... z1K4TQILOe
http://www.draftexpress.com

Aside from their length, there isn't a whole lot that's similar between these two prospects.

The are both shotblockers/rebounders who use athleticism over skill. I think there's a lot that's common about them.

Biyombo hasn't done anything in his basketball career beyond that.

pspot · Post #994 » by **pspot** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:57 pm

Can't wait for workouts to start

Obvious top two but then you've got two groups PGs (Knight vs Walker) and Bigs (Val, Kanter, Biyumbo) both of which are a need for the Raps but none of which are the obvious choice at this point.

Hopefully they have GM in place to manage this critical process.

bboyskinnylegs · Post #995 » by **bboyskinnylegs** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:06 pm

Kanter, from what little we've been able to see of him, looks like he's somewhere between Cousins and Sullinger size-wise. Both of those guys are skilled in the post, and are extremely active and productive players that use their size and footwork more than their athleticism, and I think Kanter fits into that mold. He certainly doesn't look less athletic than Sullinger, who himself is a great prospect, but whose main knock is the fact that he's 6'8"-6'9" (although he's got a 7-1 wingspan).

Post #996 » by **5DOM** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:12 pm

Reignman wrote:The are both shotblockers/rebounders who use athleticism over skill. I think there's a lot that's common about them.

Biyombo hasn't done anything in his basketball career beyond that.

But which shotblocker/rebounder hasn't used athleticism and length? Of course skills/techniques and intelligence/experience are important, but how do you know Biyombo doesn't have them? You don't average 6ppg/6rpg/2blk in 14mpg in the second best league in the world by just using your athleticism and length. Besides, his length and athleticism are gonna be elite wherever he plays. It's a good thing

Komodo · Post #997 » by **Komodo** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:15 pm

Irving, Williams.

Valanciunas, Kanter, Knight.

Biyombo, Walker.

Leonard, Burks, Hamilton.

Jones, Vesely, Mirotic.

Say we pick 6th and the above top-5 are off the board. What a crapshoot.

Truthrising · Post #998 » by **Truthrising** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:21 pm

bboyskinnylegs wrote:I don't think Whiteside's athleticism is on par with Biyombo, however, even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it is, Whiteside (who was 2 years older at the time he was drafted) weighed 227 lbs at the combine (vs. Biyombo's 243lbs. now). His only advantage is that his standing reach is 2 inches bigger at 9'5" vs 9'3". But as we've seen with Alabi (who also has a standing reach of 9'5"), the size/athleticism is much more important. Whiteside got by being a giant swatting shots in the Conference USA... and even there, he often got backed down in the post by guys like Jerome Jordan.
Whiteside’s weaknesses as a prospect are often just as glaring as his strengths. His main issue revolves around his extremely underdeveloped frame, which hinders him on the offensive end, but more importantly makes him a constant target for post-up plays and renders him an exceptionally poor man to man defender against average college big men. Whiteside gives up deep position in the post with the greatest of ease--seemingly not even fighting back at times-- getting out of his stance quickly, bringing his hands down, and downright giving up on plays, thinking he’ll simply be able to recover and come up with a block, which at this level can indeed be the case on occasion.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Has ... z1K4TQILOe
http://www.draftexpress.com

Aside from their length/shotblocking ability, there isn't a whole lot that's similar between these two prospects. Biyombo brings a lot more defensively imo.

Ok, i'm gonna be honest but this is a trend i notice from draft to draft, in terms of comparing Bismack to Whiteside I feel that Bismack is recieving the same type of spike as Hassan Whiteside did last year and I was one of the person that was on the Hassan Whiteside bandwagon, never will I ever make the same mistake twice.

I also think he's best served being drafted by a top team that can afford him to be in the D-league for a while, so he should be a player that should be drafted mid to late 20's.

bboyskinnylegs · Post #999 » by **bboyskinnylegs** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:24 pm

Here's another Biyombo game:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AChPDnUlOFg&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC3j53nvG48&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1KD-RsP--I&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exnWxb8veA8&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

turner10 · Post #1000 » by **turner10** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:36 pm

SportsCenter SportsCenter
by espn
#Kentucky junior DeAndre Liggins & freshmen Terrence Jones & Brandon Knight have declared for this
year's #NBA Draft

.

big into this.