2011 DRAFT blather goes here. Part 3...

[RT31]

well, just because i'm late to the Kahwi Leonard hate-fest doesn't mean i can't get my shots in also:

1 - it's a SF weak draft. next year would be the better time to reload on swingman talent with a lotto pick.
2 - i thought booker showed enough flashes of being able to play spot minutes at SF. he's not a prototypical 'melo type sf, but definitely effective enough to think that he has a long term future with us.
3 - why do we have to reach on leonard with the 6th when there are comparable SFs available with the 18th and even the 2nd rounder? Guys like Chris Singleton and Justin Harper are just as likely to pan out as Leonard imo. All 3 are quality 3 and D prospects (all have 7 foot wingspans and shot 35%+ from collegiate 3).

1) We have no idea where we'll be picking next year, or how the CBA negotiations could effect available talent.

2) Booker showed the ability to defend small forwards, but he was a total self-check. His rebounding rate was actually pretty "eh" too. I like Booker, but he doesn't have a clear position yet. We can't expect him to be more than a bench big.

3) Both Singleton and Harper are 1-1.5 years older than Leonard, with two years more experience playing high level ball. They are closer to being finished products.

Harper is by far the superior shooter, but his passing is abysmal, and he boards like my grandmother. His big knock is a lack of toughness or motor - we absolutely don't need more players like that.

Singleton is more intriguing because he has the toughness and defensive tenacity... but he's an even worse passer than Harper, and his sophomore shooting percentages are actually worse than Leonard's.


In summary: Leonard actually looks like he could be an NBA starter - IF he gets his shot together. That's still a lot more likely than Harper learning to play hard or Singleton learning to pass, dribble, and shoot straight.

Just my opinion, of course. Perhaps I overvalue the toughness/rebounding and motor that Kawhi brings.

...what he said

singleton is a good consolation prize if we go big at #6. I personally think Leonard has more upside as Illuminaire said. I think he's a better athlete. plus, as it has been said before, you don't play defense with the top of your head. standing reach and wingspan is more important than actual height. so a comparison from DX:
Singleton
Wingspan: 7-1
Standing Reach: 8-7.5

Leonard
Wingspan: 7-3
Standing Reach: 8-10

So though Leonard is 1.75" shorter, he's actually 2"+ longer than Singleton....and in my opinion, a better athlete.

on Harper...he's not a comparison at SF. He's a PF, stretch 4. pick and pop type of guy. I'm not hating on him, I've even posted taking a look at him at #34. But to group him with potential SFs is a mistake.

[Ruzious]

Well I'm willing to think I may be looking for something that ain't there.

But If I'm adding a Big, ideally I add a guy who has a defensive aptitude and interest and game effect. I see no dominant two-way big in the draft, but there's a chance we get a solid defensive big. If I squint cockeyed at the draft I think there are two possibilities for game-affecting defensive bigs. And Enes isn't one of them.

With a narrow sample I like a few things about Jonny Valley: his activity, effort, grit, and energy level in a guy who looks to me like an NBA 7 footer (in shoes). That goes a long way. More importantly what I like best is the development I've seen since the beginning of the year, when, quite frankly, I too thought the guy sorta sucked.

I trust a player who improves, a player I can see learning from their experience in short order. If he has requisite size and athleticism then (health provided) these players maximize their talent. The question then is whether he has sufficient talent. On that front I'm seeing something Dat isn't, one way or the other.

Chiefly: Dat is my boy and all, we generally agree on most picks. But he's also flat out wrong that Jonas has no wingspan nor reach. I don't want to like the kid, but what catches my eye in the first place are those long ropes of his, taking up space in passing lanes. Good hands. Good timing and stretch on the blocked shot. Active hands and feet. A bit of bounce for a big guy, able to dunk with one or both hands without a running start.

As for his shortcomings: Kid is too lean right now. Not scaring anybody. High center of gravity means he holds position only by losing his height advantage. And his active feet don't prevent him from fouling like a motherlover, which limits his time on court and will only be more pronounced over here. His skill level is 'developing' which is to say not polished.

But his motor is good and his instincts are good, and his size is legit. He's no Kwame Brown in body, but then, he's no Kwame Brown at heart either. Kid is scrappy. Which is probably where I go wrong in my assessment, since heart counts large for me.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBS0lHZGJP0[/youtube]

I agree though that Enes is a better fit for the team we have right now. I too just have doubts about his defensive potential and upside. He'll be able to hold his position on the blocks better, but I don't see him battling down there. Though granted, all my footage is old on that score.

Enes is the guy I want to like best. The guy I liked best early before DWillz proved himself. Kanter fits in too many ways, good offensive synergy, solid body, subs well at either frontcourt spot with our other current bigs. And he seems like a character kid. Earnest. Skilled. Hard working. My only concern is that, so far, looks like a mediocre defender. Not instinctive hustling at that end. A step slow to react. Not desperate or focused. Could be that changes with experience. Maybe. I'm still very happy to land him if we can. As of today I have him ahead of JoVal. I just can see the attraction of the Lithuanian, if teams ahead of us choose to go that route.

Oh and for what it's worth Jeremy Tyler is the other potential dominant defensive big. Long arms, solid frame that hasn't yet been sculpted but will take muscle easily. Good man-on defender in the combine drills. But as a recovering knucklehead, he makes a fella circumspect. More than anything we need an upgrade in the category of all-around ballers. Competitors. Basketball lifers who care more about wins than appearances. And Tyler reads like he likes the smell of himself. Can he play in a team concept? Does he care more about the VIP room than the early morning practice? I want the guy who, you amputate his legs, he's signing up for the wheelchair league within the month. Dunno if that's him. Was he humbled and chastened? Admits he was immature in Israel, though he sorta makes excuses for it.

Philosophically, I agree with you on the JV v Enes debate. And I agree mostly on your evaluations of them. Enes is not going to be a defensive standout, but... with his mastodonish frame (When you're 6'11 260 with 6% body fat right after your 19th birthday, you are an official whooly mammoth.), he will wear opponents down and at least provide a Marc Gasol type presence. I don't think he'll be a totally useless stiff defensively, like Boozer - who won't even move his feet.

While JV is still the harder to analyze player - he's less of a finished product, and all the film is against Euros that are not as athletic as NBA players. There are things that just jump out about him that are very impressive:
1. Looking at 2010 vs 2011, it's clear that there's improvement in his body, his confidence, and his ability. That should continue.
2. He's an outstanding defensive rebounder.
3. Size and great length - Obviously, he's going to fill out more. He has the frame, and he should have better than average strength for an NBA center within a few years.
4. Work ethic. It's obvious just by watching him. He's non-stop on the court setting screens and fighting for position.
5. Devoted to defense and showing improvement there.
6. Efficient scorer. He makes a high percentage of both FG's and FT's.
7. Kid just turned 19.

I think he has just a tad more long-range upside than Kanter, but he's not the sure thing that I think Kanter is. My inclination is to go with the more skilled bruiser - Kanter. But I'd be happy with JV.

Tyler - for the Wiz, I'd stay far away. Yes, his measurements and athleticism are that of a guy with #1 in the draft potential. And he definitely improved tremendously in Japan vs his disaster in Israel. And he's saying the right things now. But I've heard too many negatives about his lack of maturity, and it sounds like his game needs years of development. And there's the question - why draft a player who's not going to be effective until he becomes a free agent? Otoh, he could turn out to be the next Jermaine O'Neil.

[RT31]

And there's the question - why draft a player who's not going to be effective until he becomes a free agent? Otoh, he could turn out to be the next Jermaine O'Neil.

How did that work out for the team that drafted him? Portland. say no to Tyler. We need to reduce the knucklehead factor on this team.

[REDardWIZskin]

For the people who are not fans of Leonard is it just that you think 6 is too high or do you just not want him at all? Would 9 be better? I presented a scenario yesterday where we could trade back to 9 with Charlotte so they can get Kemba before Sac (7) and Detroit (8) get to him. I read that MJ was really high on Kemba and we may be able to get 19th pick back in the swap... giving us 9+18 +19
Whats the salary difference between the 6th and 9th picks? is that right where it starts dropping significantly?

[REDardWIZskin]

And there's the question - why draft a player who's not going to be effective until he becomes a free agent? Otoh, he could turn out to be the next Jermaine O'Neil.

How did that work out for the team that drafted him? Portland. say no to Tyler. We need to reduce the knucklehead factor on this team.

Apparently he has matured a lot since going overseas, i mean he was only 17 when he went... And he may be the most athletic player in the draft, if its not Biyombo or Leslie from UGA. but he's 6'11 and 250 which is the difference. It could be a derrick favors type of pick at 18

[Hoopalotta]

For the people who are not fans of Leonard is it just that you think 6 is too high or do you just not want him at all?

That strikes me as being the more lucid position. I just don't want to be the team that commences plucking from amongst the nebulous miscellany of equivalency before anyone else.

Of who I'd expect to be there, the talent that stands out at 6 is Biyombo and Walker, so if we don't want them (understandable) I'd just as soon try and get multiple swings at the pinata.

[fishercob]

Though none of us have really seen Kanter play, I'm thinking the obvious comparison is something in the Al Jefferson range. Their camp measurements are uncannily similar - same weight with Kanter a little taller and Al a little longer. Jefferson almost surely has more skill, but those skills somehow seem to be channeled towards not drawing fouls, so effectiveness is another matter. Kanter might well end up being an Al Jefferson that helps you actually win just by having a better bag of habits and probably intangibles. Likely less of a pure postup guy with other scoring facets as well.

But at 6'11" 260, most of the power forwards of the past in that range have been freak athletes or else they played in a different era that allowed them to be lane cloggers. I really don't see how he projects defensively at the 4, especially as I'd expect it's going to be all too easy for him to put on some weight (muscle) and get up to 270 or so. There's just not a lot of precedent for a guy that big guarding David West and company.

I think Al was a lot rawer when he came into the league out of high school, thus slipping to 15.

I know I haven't been getting a lot of sleep lately, but are you really concerned about Kanter because he might end up being too big and strong? Zach Randolph just wreaked havoc on Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, et al, and he's two inches shorter than Enes. Looking at the elite teams in the league, who is going exploit a quickness matchup on Kanter? I suppose Miami could start running their offense through Bosh, but even if they do, he's going to have McGee meeting him at the rim (and with Wade and Lebron, they're never running their offense through Bosh).

For years we were on the "David West" side of this equation, saying "well, Jamison's getting destroyed by bigger, stronger, longer PF's -- but they have to guard HIM out the the three point line." And we sucked. I'd much rather be the Goliath in the mismatch and control the boards and limit the opposition's effectiveness in close.

[Ruzious]

The closer the draft gets, the more I am getting fixated on two players: Kenneth Faried and Marshon Brooks.

Faried is who I want the Wizards to pick up the most, now that there is no way they can get Williams.

Faried is better than Derrick Williams when it comes to rebounding, defense, running the court (Faried won all the sprints in Chicago according to one scout--see link below) , and playing with energy at both ends of the court. I is without a doubt the best rebounder in this class--even better than elite rebounding Kawhi Leonard, Jordan Williams, and Markieff Morris. I think size irrespective, Faried is an elite competitor. He really is the next Dennis Rodman IMHO.

“Faried caught everybody’s eyes on Day 1. He won every sprint, he banged into the practice coaches in the post and was physical with everybody. You could just see his energy and enthusiasm and zest for the game.’’

Read more: http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/woelfe ... z1NMXpa8wH

If I were GM of the Wizards, I would probably trade down from 6 and get Faried because I think Faried is probably better than Blatche or Booker and those guys are solid pros. I would have liked Willams or Kanter, but I think adding speed and rebounding and defense improves the Wizards a bunch. Booker is kind of fierce with his dunks. Seraphin is an intimidator. I would add Faried as ball hawk and a guys that fits in with them. He's a hard dude. Put him and Booker next to McGee and that's a freakish frontcourt.

I know it's not going to happen, but Faried is the player I want the most.

Second, I think Marshon Brooks is going to be a beast of a pro SG. Bet he's even better than Crawford or Young. Just have that feeling. I thought this way before the predraft workouts, just based on his stats this season. The link above mentions him.

The Wizards could conceivably trade down from 6 and 18 and get Faried and Brooks plus future assets. I think Faried, Brooks, and maybe a defensive PG like Shumpert could be really good on draft day. Iman stands out to me and so do Charles Jenkins, Norris Cole, and Demetri McCamey at PG. I like a lot of players in this draft, but mainly the defenders. Haven't even mentioned Jimmy Butler, but he seems very solid. I would like to see the Wizards add defense, character guys, and shooting to the team.

My overall favorite players, for whatever reason, are Faried and Brooks.

I can certainly understand pushing for Faried and Brooks. Aside from the numbers, Faried has a unique presence on the court - full of energy to go along with athleticism. He makes things happen defensively and on the boards. If there's a loose ball, I'd bet on him to grab it. And dude looks like he lives in the gym. He definitely doesn't fit any mold for a 3 or a 4, but he will help you win games. People will say - he's Booker. If he is, he's a super-charged version of Booker.

Brooks kinda looks like a stretched out plastic-man version of Crawford. Their faces and expressions even look alike. It's obvious they both love to shoot. His length is rediculous. It'll make up for a lot of things.

Charles Jenkins isn't going to make it, imo. His college success is a lot like Freeman's of G-town. He was short and strong and could over-power most college guards. He'd be a short 2 in the NBA, and that over-powering stuff won't work against NBA 2's. And he's going to be a PG in the NBA.

[fishercob]

On the issue of trading Crawford, we need some perspective.

He posted a well below average PER this year and terrible shooting/efficiency numbers. He's likable, seemingly hard-working and has a great on-court demeanor. But let's not overstate his effectiveness, especially given the circumstances under which he racked up some of his seemingly impressive raw stats.

Whose to say that he's going to be any more valuable than Marshon Brooks, Josh Selby, Klay Thompson, Norris Cole, Jeremy Lamb, William Buford, etc?

There's a big bias towards him because (a) he's one of ours now and (b) he tries hard. I like the kid, but I'd gleefully give him up to get Enes.

You always want to be the guy giving up the three nickels in exchange for the quarter, as often happens in NBA trades. Crawford's a nickel.

[REDardWIZskin]

I think Jenkins is a more consistent shooter than Freeman and he also averaged 5 assists and 5 rebounds. As a matter of fact is percentages are really good across the board. I wouldn't mind selecting him in the second round. He seems to be sliding into the first round though. I've seen reports that say NYC may even reach for him at 17

[Hoopalotta]

Though none of us have really seen Kanter play, I'm thinking the obvious comparison is something in the Al Jefferson range. Their camp measurements are uncannily similar - same weight with Kanter a little taller and Al a little longer. Jefferson almost surely has more skill, but those skills somehow seem to be channeled towards not drawing fouls, so effectiveness is another matter. Kanter might well end up being an Al Jefferson that helps you actually win just by having a better bag of habits and probably intangibles. Likely less of a pure postup guy with other scoring facets as well.

But at 6'11" 260, most of the power forwards of the past in that range have been freak athletes or else they played in a different era that allowed them to be lane cloggers. I really don't see how he projects defensively at the 4, especially as I'd expect it's going to be all too easy for him to put on some weight (muscle) and get up to 270 or so. There's just not a lot of precedent for a guy that big guarding David West and company.

I think Al was a lot rawer when he came into the league out of high school, thus slipping to 15.

I know I haven't been getting a lot of sleep lately, but are you really concerned about Kanter because he might end up being too big and strong? Zach Randolph just wreaked havoc on Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, et al, and he's two inches shorter than Enes. Looking at the elite teams in the league, who is going exploit a quickness matchup on Kanter? I suppose Miami could start running their offense through Bosh, but even if they do, he's going to have McGee meeting him at the rim (and with Wade and Lebron, they're never running their offense through Bosh).

For years we were on the "David West" side of this equation, saying "well, Jamison's getting destroyed by bigger, stronger, longer PF's -- but they have to guard HIM out the the three point line." And we sucked. I'd much rather be the Goliath in the mismatch and control the boards and limit the opposition's effectiveness in close.

To me, Kanter's a natural center defensively while being short armed and a lot of teams could exploit a quickness mismatch against Enes if he's asked to go out and guard 4's. The criteria for mobility and footspeed amongst 4's is just different from that of 5's in terms of reaction speed and the kind of space these guys are supposed to cover. You're going way out from the basket at the 4 slot and Kanter's a special talent if he can do it.

This is the list of drafted Power Forwards sorted by weight (many of whom are actually centers according to the sorting engine):

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... All&sort=4

Going over that list, I don't really see how the position that calling this out as an issue is anything other than bread and butter realism - there just aren't a lot of guys that this has worked for recently especially as I'd uggest a lot of the guys on that list were husky at the camp and then lost weight (for example, I really doubt Nick Collison weighs 255 these days). So, to me, the burden of proof is really on actually finding 260 pound power forwards who weren't ridiculous athletes that are effective defensively. And again, at 19 years old, that frame looks to me like it's proclivity is to gain weight with losing it being both a bad idea and an impossibility, so I think 260 is the floor.

There's nothing wrong with being a center, but that's what Kanter is to me and I don't see how that's at all offbase as a perspective given the fundamentals. I just reject the idea put forward a good bit here that Kanter is this seamless fit in the Al Horford school or equivalent there physically. If Kanter does get to 270 pounds while playing a good bit of the 4, he'll amongst a very small breed. So, yes, you can be too big for a given position.

Could it work based on playoff precedent? Maybe, but I see the league trending in the opposite direction overall.

[thinker07]

my beef with biyombo is that he's a 1 trick pony. he's not that great of a rebounder with limited offensive game. i mean, why don't we just give Jarvis Varnado a call? it'd be cheaper.

I think we'll just streamline the speech with what drafting Biyombo means:

We're adding a little something to this month's draft contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado. Anybody want to see second prize? Second prize is you're fired.

Actually, second prize is steak knives.

[Ruzious]

I think Jenkins is a more consistent shooter than Freeman and he also averaged 5 assists and 5 rebounds. As a matter of fact is percentages are really good across the board. I wouldn't mind selecting him in the second round. He seems to be sliding into the first round though. I've seen reports that say NYC may even reach for him at 17

Oh, he's definitely better than Freeman and in MUCH better shape, but ultimately they're both short 2's who depended on their strength advantage in college - and won't be able to do that in the NBA.

[Hoopalotta]

my beef with biyombo is that he's a 1 trick pony. he's not that great of a rebounder with limited offensive game. i mean, why don't we just give Jarvis Varnado a call? it'd be cheaper.

I think we'll just streamline the speech with what drafting Biyombo means:

We're adding a little something to this month's draft contest. As you all know, first prize is a Cadillac Eldorado. Anybody want to see second prize? Second prize is you're fired.

Actually, second prize is steak knives.

I was thinking Biyombo parsed the divide between winners and losers to an even sharper gradient. There are no steak knives with Biyombo; just a cadillac and "you're fired".

[LyricalRico]

^ Nice to see a few fellow "littles" in the house!

[verbal8]

I can certainly understand pushing for Faried and Brooks. Aside from the numbers, Faried has a unique presence on the court - full of energy to go along with athleticism. He makes things happen defensively and on the boards. If there's a loose ball, I'd bet on him to grab it. And dude looks like he lives in the gym. He definitely doesn't fit any mold for a 3 or a 4, but he will help you win games. People will say - he's Booker. If he is, he's a super-charged version of Booker.

Brooks kinda looks like a stretched out plastic-man version of Crawford. Their faces and expressions even look alike. It's obvious they both love to shoot. His length is rediculous. It'll make up for a lot of things.

I like Brooks and Faried in this draft. However I think think given the Wizards current draft positions, won't be in a good position to draft either player. I think 6 is too early for Faried, but he will be gone at 18(I think there is truth to the Knicks interest if no one else grabs him). I think Brooks would be a little bit of a reach at 18, but probably gone by the 2nd round. Harper is another guy who I like who is a reach at 18, but likely a late 1st rounder.

If the Wizards maneuvered around and got Faried, Harper and Brooks with a future pick out of this draft that would be a good haul.

[popper]

For such a weak draft there sure are a lot of advocates on this board, including me, that have their favorite player. When I look at the Wizards I see the following as our most urgent need.

1. Bad interior defense. Terrible weakside help. Subpar defensive rebounding. High usage. low efficiency PF.

Kantor - improvement in defensive rebounding and more efficient scoring - Probably not a significant improvement in overall interior defense or weakside help. Probably a 20 and 9 PF/C.

BB - Significant improvement in interior defense, weakside help and defensive rebounding.
Low usage player able to start the fast break with blocks and score on putbacks and offensive rebounds. With McGee and BB, we will easily lead the league in blocked shots culminating in more fast break baskets. I saw clips of BB using a smooth stroke in drills and knocking down 15-18 footers. It is not a given that he won't develop a nice mid-range game. He's also a better one-on-one defender than either Blatch or Kantor. I agree he is turnover prone and will need to improve his handles significantly. Probably a 15 and 11 PF that averages 2-3 blocks a game.

Advantage: BB with the 6 pick


With BB, Rashard and Booker manning the PF position we could then safely trade Blatch and move up to pick Leonard, Singleton, Faried, etc.

I doubt Ernie will even consider any of the white Euro big men as he has already been burned twice with the Wizards by drafting Pesh and the other Euro he took in the second round a few years back.

[The Consiglieri]

If we don't get Kanter, I'm fine with Biyombo at #6.

I would be too, but as much as many of us seem to have a firm idea of what should be done as early as 6 in the draft, EG probably has a distinctly different valuation on what makes the most sense at 6, and if the rumors are to be believed, and in recent years, leaks have been consistently on point with what he liked and/or wanted, then the pick could very easily be Vesely and hell, how would we all feel if we traded up and instead of a Kantner, took a Vesely, or even Johnny V, because that is not remotely implausible to me. Indeed I have a feel his non point guard board probably reads: Williams, Kantner, Vesely. We have no idea if we even like Biyombo, there hasnt seemed to have been any implication that we do. I think most of us would valuate the draft as Williams/Kantner, followed by some ordering of Johnny V and Vessely. That's who we're going to target with our pick or in a trade up. I don't really see us going any other direction other than Leonard who there is also some degree of smoke about. For all our determination, desire and frustration, it does sound as if were staying put, and going in one of those five directions, and i happen to think the most likely is Jan or Leonard at 6, and staying put. I hope its a trade up for Kanter or Kantner falling into our laps w/o any trade up involving '12 picks, i would never countenance a trade of a '12 pick for any of these guys as I suspect, pre-lottery, we'll be slotting no later than 6th or 7th, which should at bare minimum guarantee a better evaluated prospect than anyone this year at 6, even if we do have a worst case scenario drop like we had in this lottery.

[The Consiglieri]

In fact the precedent I remember is #1 (C-Webb) for #3 (Penny Hardaway) and THREE 1st rounders.

This is a bad comparison. I bet Webber was considered the highest rated PF prospect of all time as he entered the draft. The hype surrounding him as a PF was unprecedented and really has been unmatched since, as long as you counted Duncan a CE when he was coming out of Wake.

The better trade comp is 2005--also considered a weak draft--when Utah moved up for Deron Williams who wasn't really considered 'top 3 PG in the league potential'. Utah gave up the 6th in that draft as well as the 27th, and the 30th pick in the 2006 draft. Which is why I sort of snicker when Jazz fan's say that the 6th+18th+Seraphin isn't enough.

You are correct. As a kid pre-college, my favorite college tieams were Michigan (X-Men comic book justification ), and Florida State, so I was a huge follower of Michigan even before Glen Rice. Webber was seen in that draft as the most impressive potential power forward ever. He was seen as a guy who combined elite power forward size with the speed, fludidity, and athleticism of a point guard. He was seen as a freak in the same vein as the huge Magic Johnson, a player that defied explanation or rationalization. The sense was that if he could mentally and physically put in the work, he would become possibly the best front court player in terms of skills and raw ability ever.

It didnt happen. If you'd put Jalen Rose's heart and desire, and Grant Hill's professionalism and sense of mental security and esteem and work habits into him he might have been the best player ever. Webber wasnt mature though, or tough enough mentally, and he never became what he could have been, but yeah, a trade up for Webber would be analogous to a trade up next year for Andrew Luck, its simply different than "1" for something, it was, "potentially best front court player of the modern era ever for..."

[WizarDynasty]

webber didnt have the lenghth to e a two way player. there was lil info about players true basketball measurables back then. webber was a better passing al horford.
but if u dont have kareem, worthy, or scott to dish too--not much separation. standing reach over 9'2 is absolute minimum to be above average defensively at 4 or five--and then greater over 7'1 the better. I don't think its wise to make a 4 or 5 that doesn't have above average defensive dimensions to be the face of your team. Amare was surrounded by talent in Phoenix and couldn' hack it even though he is one of the all time offensively talented bigmen.