OT: soccer thread

[fatlever]

great stuff det. good to see it from the point of view from someone who grew up in a country that is soccer first.

mls does seem to be getting better, but still has a ways to go. its probably closer to some of the 2nd division leagues in europe these days or maybe england's 3rd division since id have to think that england 2nd division teams like nottingham forest, QPR, reading etc.. would still put a massive beat down on MLS teams.

mls has no youth teams. instead its all high schools and colleges, as you mentioned. i dont know if that will ever change here. i mean look at dempsey, he played college ball at furman. if he was in europe he would have been with a club team since he was 16. i think the US is doing a better job of getting young players to club teams in europe earlier than before, so that is good.

i wish mls would adopt the typical soccer calendar and play fall-spring and not in the summer. it makes no sense. and i would love to see a promotion/relegation system in place, but thats not really feasible any time soon considering the nasl just reformed this year.

[Det the Threat]

great stuff det. good to see it from the point of view from someone who grew up in a country that is soccer first.

No problem.
Though, I'm just talking about your league and youth system from an outside view.
I don't know all the details, but think putting way more money into youth developement and commercials is the only way you've got a chance to get better.

You have to make it interesting for those kids and make them want to become a soccer player, because they think they've got a chance to be something while playing this sport.

I mean, last year I watched some under 20 Copa America and the playmaker of Argentina was a guy that was born and raised in California.
Here's the player, his name is Michael Ryan Hoyos.
http://www.transfermarkt.de/de/michael- ... 38387.html

Imediatly there should be questions for US soccer like:
Why isn't he playing for our country?
Aren't we making those guys feel like they're welcome enough to think about wearing our colours?
etc.

I mean, before we decided to increase our youth development in 2000 there wasn't hardly a thought for kids of turkish, spanish etc. decent to play for the German team, as they weren't really integrated and chose to play for the country of their parents.
Nowadays you've got Oezil, Khedira, Gomez, Boateng, Aogo and so on playing for Germany, because of the way we're developing those youngsters and because they really feel like the Germany wants them to play for the country their born and raised in.

mls does seem to be getting better, but still has a ways to go. its probably closer to some of the 2nd division leagues in europe these days or maybe england's 3rd division since id have to think that england 2nd division teams like nottingham forest, QPR, reading etc.. would still put a massive beat down on MLS teams.

I think there's some talent and the quality's gotten better, but it's still a strange league to me, especially with handing all this money to has beens.
It's nice to have someone like Beckham to promote the sport, but there shouldn't be a lot of mediocre former internationals still making some money.

It would be better to play some more youngsters as they would develop and show those kids that it's possible to play in the MLS, even at a younger age.

BTW: I've got to veto your 2nd division assesment. The 2nd Bundesliga is most likely the most competitve and best one in Europe and I'm not saying this because I'm German.
It's just the way money of TV deals etc. is being handed out. In England, for example, there are teams spending huge amounts of money to stay in the Premier League, because there's a huge drop off in TV money and sponsorships comparing Premier League and Championship football.

In Germany there's also a drop off, but there's still some money and solid football being played in the 2nd Bundesliga and that can be seen by all of those nice Stadiums most of those teams have. We also just had a 2nd Bundesliga team(Duisburg) in the Cup final and another one in the semifinal(Cottbus) and that's(at least the semifinals) nothing new or out of the order in Germany.

mls has no youth teams. instead its all high schools and colleges, as you mentioned. i dont know if that will ever change here. i mean look at dempsey, he played college ball at furman. if he was in europe he would have been with a club team since he was 16. i think the US is doing a better job of getting young players to club teams in europe earlier than before, so that is good.

I think it can work this way, with some tweaking.
You could try to have soccer or sports high schools(something similar had been done over here, in eastern Germany) in every bigger city or at least state, where talented youngsters still go to school but will train more and with more qualified coaches.

That would help train your youth better and would also mean more competition, as they're always going up against the best of their city/state in training.

i wish mls would adopt the typical soccer calendar and play fall-spring and not in the summer. it makes no sense. and i would love to see a promotion/relegation system in place, but thats not really feasible any time soon considering the nasl just reformed this year.

I doubt that will happen, because there's no way they'll have a chance competing against football, basketball and baseball, whatever time of the year you're in.

And this relegation system certainly won't work as well, with that franchise system all of your leagues are working in.

I mean, try telling a guy that bought the team for millions of dollars that he might not make all that much next year because his team might get relegated and play in the 2nd division, without all those great TV apperances and so on...

[SWedd523]

swedd, you played a lot of youth soccer growning up. what were your experiences like?

See though, I think it goes deeper than the US simply not caring anymore. I played soccer for about 12 years growing up and you'd be surprised at how much talent goes around in the different Charlotte area soccer clubs and you could see the improvement in the technical aspects of the game after a few years of instruction.

The club level (Discoveries, Charlotte Soccer Club, and others) have extremely competitive levels of play. The majority of our varsity team that went to upper state played in some sort of club, and just about every kid on the JV level was the same.

When we would go to camps, they drilled us every day for hours on ball handling, balance, first touches, off foot dribbling, cut backs, etc. etc. and it seems like most of the pros (a generation-ish ahead of me) didn't have that taught to them as youngsters. You'd still imagine that they'd learn that stuff on the professional level.

I think maybe the "assembly line" for soccer has either JUST started or isn't here yet. By that I mean, when kids are born in certain families, they're taught "you're going to be a (random sport) player, so get practicing!" because that's what they did when they were young.

And we don't have enough ex-pro/ex-high level players to have kids old enough to be pushed into the family craft. For example, you KNOW Donovan's son is going to be a soccer player, or at least be pushed into it until it's decided he's not good enough. Same for Dempsey, Bradley (as we've already seen), and the others.

I think when we get a soccer generation of players (because with 350 million people, we have the size to spare) who have children, we'll see the improvement that a lot of us desire. We already have some of the most physically fit and imposing players, if we can get just one Xavi or Iniesta, then I can really see us take off.

Maybe that wave is at the tail end of my generation and we'll see soccer take off. I know it's embarrassing that we can't eve keep possession in a friendly.

[fatlever]

you make some good points swedd. i talked to a buddy of mine today who played in college and then in the USL and asked him a similar question and he talked about how much of a joke it was when he was coming up through the youth ranks and how much it has changed the past few years. so maybe we are heading in the right direction. when i was coming up we would do a few drills and then spend an hour playing kickball, so...

and the popularity of soccer in the US is definitely growing fast. having access to fox soccer channel and other outlets on the net where you can easily watch games in europe has to be creating lots of new soccer fans. i hear less people bad mouth the sport these days, although you still get a lot of "soccer is a sissy sport" blah blah... says the guy who cant run 2 miles w/out puking.

and as the MLS grows in popularity more young fans will be born. look at what is happening in the pacific northwest. those guys are turning into soccer fanatics. the crowds at the timber and sounders games is unlike anything we have seen in the country before.

but again, all that being said, it sucks to see our national team seemingly tread water. maybe if we win the gold cup i will feel a lot better, but get knocked out early or get embarrassed again my mexico....

[BigSlam]

i hear less people bad mouth the sport these days, although you still get a lot of "soccer is a sissy sport" blah blah... says the guy who cant run 2 miles w/out puking.

But the guy saying it wouldn't be the one running away. The guy running for 2 miles would be the sissy running away from the real man who brought the sissy's sport into question.

[fatlever]

haha... at least those afl boys can run for days as well as beating the piss out of each other. no worries, you've made me a fan. if only i could turn you into a soccer fan, but i know thats never gonna happen.

[BigSlam]

haha... at least those afl boys can run for days as well as beating the piss out of each other. no worries, you've made me a fan. if only i could turn you into a soccer fan, but i know thats never gonna happen.

If every professional/top grade soccer team played the game the way the German's did at last years World Cup I could be swayed.

As a non-soccer fan I found them SO enjoyable to watch and played such great team ball. It was exciting, captivating and entertaining.

[SWedd523]

You've never seen Barca play then. This team they've had the past few years has been the best soccer team ever. It's a shame for people to miss that.


Australian Football is a sissy sport if I've seen one

[fatlever]

Australian Football is a sissy sport if I've seen one

LOL... oh no you didnt

you should see the short shorts these dudes prance around in... haha.

fight fight fight

[BigSlam]

Australian Football is a sissy sport if I've seen one

LOL... oh no you didnt

you should see the short shorts these dudes prance around in... haha.

fight fight fight

The shorts are only so small because they have to keep our massive donks in place - unlike soccer players who have vagina's so there is nothing to swing in the breeze (hence the loose fitting legs of their shorts).

Aussie Rules? Mans game bitches.

[SWedd523]

If by mans game you mean:





NO thanks!

[BigSlam]

If by mans game you mean:





NO thanks!

That's not Aussie Rules - it's Rugby.

Totally different things.

[Marvel]

And don't you dare say rugby's a game for sissies either.

[SWedd523]

Rugby's a game for sissies






Real men play tennis, gymnastics, polo, and badminton

[Thaliontil]

Thanks for the "re-welcome" Fat

After seeing the game I was very surprised.I really cheered your team in the World Cup,because I think they played with passion and a lot of intensity in all the games they played,it was a shame to see them dropped off the competition.But on Saturday´s match I saw none of those virtues which identify you...I suppose it was for the reasons you mentioned,the aging of some players and the entry of the starting players in the second half.

Hope you win the Gold Cup.As regards to the lack of success of your national team,well,I´m not as informed as det is,but I´ll try to explain what´s the situation in Spain when it comes to this sport:

-We don´t have a economically powerful league as Germain has.Their job has been marvellous,in our league (BBVA,as NBA,by the way) even Barcelona is in debts,but they can afford to pay Cesc and Alexis Sánchez and Rossi and all those great players because of the banks and their loans...The same as Real Madrid,which is also promoted by Florentino Pérez.The rest of the teams,except Malaga which has been bought by a sheik,are suffering the economical crisis.For example,my team cannot expend 9 million euros in hiring Kevin Gameiro,not even 1,5 in bringing back Stankevicius...

-Perhaps our 2nd division is more powerful than other countries "Championship League" or "2nd Bundesliga",but we are facing again the economical situation,no money to pay the salaries,no money to hire players...And it is even worst in the next divisions.

-Why is the national team winning nowadays? In part because of this "Golden Generation",I doubt we will ever have another one like this.Great players coming from Real Madrid and Barça base teams (Casillas,Piqué,Puyol,Xavi,Busquets,Borja Valero,Negredo,Mata,Soldado,Valdés,Pedro) and at last players with experience in other leagues beyond Spain (Xabi Alonso,Cesc,Reina...).I was playing Fifa two days ago and I watched Michael Bradley playing in...Borussia Monglebadach perhaps?How many of your players play beyond the sea?

-The other reason it´s,probably,our great footballistic tradition,the average supporter of a team here in Spain is passionate,willing to do everything for its team,and I think that sometimes too radical.But hey,every single child is told to play soccer since he has the age to kick the ball and we have thousands of children playing out there.Here Basketball (Even with our great results and Pau,Marc or Calde) is in the second place as the most popular sport,far behind soccer.Let´s say that in an average Saturday about 3 million people watch a "Espanyol-Valencia"...The same viewers (or even more) than a ACB final between Barcelona-Madrid/Barcelona-Caja Laboral.

So,I really agree with your propositions and the ideas of Det.But I think it also requires a change of mentality,making soccer one of the top sports,at the same level of Basketball or Baseball...You have an enormous potential,mainly because you outnumber us 6 to one I think

[Marvel]

Rugby's a game for sissies






Real men play tennis, gymnastics, polo, and badminton

And you say i'm bi polar.

[SWedd523]

You're not very good at taking a joke, are you?

[Marvel]

LOL neither are you. Maybe it's just the hate in me.

[fatlever]

Thanks for the "re-welcome" Fat

I was playing Fifa two days ago and I watched Michael Bradley playing in...Borussia Monglebadach perhaps?How many of your players play beyond the sea?

here is the breakdown of the main national team members that are playing in europe

clint dempsey - england/fulham - was fulham's player of the year and led then with 12 goals
tim howard - england/everton - starting keeper for past several years. one of best in premier league
brad friedal - england/aston villa - starting keeper for long time. retired from national duty.
michael bradley - germany/gladbach - was loaned to england/aston villa in the winter but didnt play much.
jermaine jones - germany/schalke - was loaned to england/blackburn in the winter and started most of their games in central midfield
stuart holden - england/bolton - started almost every game as central attacking mid for them and played great until nasty injury in the spring. his is out right now with injury.
carlos boganegra - france/st.etienne - still a regular starter i believe
steve cherundolo - germany/hannover - captain of club team, almost led them to champions league spot
timmy chandler - germany/nurnberg - became starter in 2nd half of season. not with national team this summer, but would be one of top 18 if he was there.
brad guzan - england/aston villa - loaned to england/hull and started as keeper for loan spell
jonathan spector - england/west ham - rotation player for club team
eric lichaj - england/aston villa - as loaned to england/leeds where he was starting
gooch onyewu - italy/acmilan - loaned to netherlands/twente where he was getting some starts, never plays for acmilan.
jozy altidore - spain/villareal - loaned to turkey/buraspor where he was getting inconsistent minutes
freddy adu - portugal/benfica - loaned to turkey/rizespor where he was starting most games
maurice edu - scotland/rangers - starts most games
sasha kljestan - belgium/anderlect - rotation player, getting some CL games
alexander bedoya - sweden/orebro - i think he is regular starter, not sure

landon donovan also had a loan spell at everton last year and played great but he decided to once again stay in MLS.

[Det the Threat]

-We don´t have a economically powerful league as Germain has.Their job has been marvellous,in our league (BBVA,as NBA,by the way) even Barcelona is in debts,but they can afford to pay Cesc and Alexis Sánchez and Rossi and all those great players because of the banks and their loans...The same as Real Madrid,which is also promoted by Florentino Pérez.The rest of the teams,except Malaga which has been bought by a sheik,are suffering the economical crisis.For example,my team cannot expend 9 million euros in hiring Kevin Gameiro,not even 1,5 in bringing back Stankevicius...

First of all greatings to Spain, Thaliontil.

Wasn't you team Valencia?

Anyways, 9 mil euros is quite some money.
The biggest transfer fee my club ever paid was about 4.7 mil for an argentinian midfielder called Federico Insua(also played in Spain before) of Boca Juniors in 2006.
Of course he was a total flop and we were relegated in 2007.

As far as financing goes:

I think we Germans did a pretty good thing, even though it set us back for quite some time.

We've got a 50+ rule, meaning that 50+%(which is at least 51%) of the stakes need to belong to the club.
That means no Sheiks, Russians or whatever taking over a club and spending like at all those English clubs, but at least most of our clubs are financially stable and are able to pay the players salaries on time.
Of course that set us back some(we just got back the 4th CL spot from Italy, starting next season), but it's a way more healthy financial system as you don't have to hope and pray for some investors to buy your club, once the old investors run out of money or lose interest.


@fatlever:
I think you forgot Ricardo Clark, who's under contract with Eintracht Frankfurt.
And Michael Bradley won't play for Gladbach again. He cried about leaving the club this past winter(at a time when we really needed him) and most likely will either go to either Aston Villa(they'll decide on their buying option after they sign their new manager) or some other teams, like Napoli or Roma, who've been reported to be interested in his services.