2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki!

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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread (Ends Sunday Night) 

Post#161 » by studcrackers » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:39 pm

kaima wrote:Have no idea if my vote will be counted.

But...

1)Dwight
2)Durant
3)Nowitzki
4)James
5)Wade

Try to flesh this out later.

Point and argument is this: correct balance of regular+playoff performances, and not allowing a team narrative, as well as favorable matchups, to cloud individual worth either pro or con.

In that sense, I very much looked at the context of the Finals -- wherein Dirk wasn't overwhelming, while James was simply under -- and that nudged Nowitzki over James.

Is that fair? I don't fully know. But I can't see James as number 1 after that, and I don't see a way in which Nowitzki was the best player for the entire, aggregate, look at the year.

Dwight Howard had the best mix of regular and post-seasons. I firmly believe that.

Small sample size? To me, it's the opposite -- Nowitzki's season, and career, are being defined by twenty games, while the other 82, wherein he was often an after-thought, are forgotten.

I believe that both players greatly helped their teams, but the team-result shouldn't overwhelm the individual's skillset and worth.

The problem for me, with LeBron, is that they conflated quite obviously at the absolute worst time. The team losses because he loses the plot individually, including his ability to facilitate -- i.e. beyond common box score stats, particularly PPG.

I have to dock him for that, even though I think he was the best player in the league for the rest of the year.

Honestly, I feel I'm being a bit harsh on LeBron and generous with Nowitzki. The latter wasn't top five for me before the playoffs.

And the past POY threads have been pretty consistent with that as well, wherein Nowitzki more often than not missed the cut.

The hagiography inherent with a championship.

Feels bizarre to leave Kobe off. And sad.


in what way was durant better than dirk this year?
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread (Ends Sunday Night) 

Post#162 » by mysticbb » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:39 pm

Elgee, margin of error is there. I agree that Nowitzki isn't forcing many turnovers (even though he has that weird stripping move when someone drives by him, and a couple of times that is incorrectly called as foul). But I don't see your idea of him being a negative on the defensive rebounding end, not even the slightest. The Mavericks are below average without him and well above average with him on the defensive rebounding end. Nowitzki was the best defensive rebounder of the Mavericks during the playoffs and by far the best in the finals. The RAPM guy is doing the same for rebounding and Nowitzki ends up being +1.9 in adjusted defensive rebounding, that meets my eye-test much more than your tracking. Maybe we focus on different things here, but somehow I get the feeling my focus is more relevant to the game.

You are also ignoring something which is really important from the defensive efficiency standpoint: reducing the amount of high efficient scoring opportunities. Being more efficient offensively helps in terms of setting up your team defense. And Nowitzki for sure makes the offense more efficient. You might want to argue that this has nothing to do with the actual abilities of a defender, BUT we are talking about a fluid game in which the action on both sides of the court impacting the overall results.


Gongxi, yes I'm german. I mentioned it a couple of times. And yes I might be biased, but so far you haven't even come close to dismissing any of my arguments with more than "it sucks, I don't care, I don't trust". So far I see that you are basing your votings solely on PER and something which is not measurable, and you add that "something" like you want. It is basically Gongxi-Adjusted-PER. That is hardly convincing at all.

Instead of actually discussing my arguments you are focussing on a search for biases, but you don't take your own bias into account. That makes it really tough to take you serious.


ronnymac, you are right, Nowitzki didn't change that much. He became better at decision making, better at his shooting game (especially from midrange), but overall his skill level didn't improve more quickly than his athletic level declined. Right now he is using more skills to drive by his defender, in earlier years he used his quick first step, right now he is using his balance to get seperation, earlier he jump a bit higher. Those are the differences, but in essence he is a very similar player. Impactwise he is basically right there were he was at his athletic peak in 2003 to 2006.

And yes, many people underrated Nowitzki over the years. I talked about spacing and screens, when I had the impression nobody else really paid attention, and in most cases I got the response that it would matter much. Well, for sure it doesn't matter much for those who are just focussing on the ball, because they just don't see it.

In this year's playoffs they remember Barea going to the rim whenever he wanted. That this was just the case when Nowitzki was on the court and Barea was converting his shots with 24% when Nowitzki wasn't, is something I bet the most people haven't noticed. Why is there such a difference? Because Nowitzki is forcing the bigger, agile defender out of the area in which this guy can be an effective help defender. Like Nick Collison, this guy can't draw charges from the weakside, when he is not close to the ball. Ibaka can't block shots from the helpside, when he has to focus on Nowitzki on the perimeter. Nowitzki even effected the offensive rebounding of the Mavericks by that, by putting his defender in an unfavorable position for the defensive rebound. Tyson Chandler for example had a lower ORB% in minutes without Nowitzki. It makes a difference to the Lakers whether Odom is closer to the basket or not. The Lakers killed the Mavericks on the boards in the minutes Nowitzki was on the bench, while the Mavericks outrebounded the Lakers in those minutes with Nowitzki. The Lakers against the Mavericks had a 84.5 DRB% in the minutes without Nowitzki (78 min), that went down to 74.5 DRB% in the minutes with Nowitzki (258 minutes). And the explanation is Nowitzki drawing the attention of the defense, forcing a better rebounder being out of position for the defensive rebound.

We can dismiss all that with sample size or we can ask ourself, if it isn't more reasonable to assume that Nowitzki's presence is effecting those things too.

Regarding previous seasons you should also keep in mind that Nowitzki while having similar skills, also played not as well during the regular season. He coasted a bit since 2007, while only really pushing it in the playoffs. But when a player is out in the first round, he can hardly overcome those regular season coastings. In this season Nowitzki, even though he used less energy in games during the regular season, was just so damn efficient scoring-wise, that the impact was nearly identical to his playoff performances in previous seasons. You can't completely dismiss the improvment in terms of efficiency in his real performances, that makes a bigger difference than it might look like.

But I guess would we today make votings for previous seasons, Nowitzki would likely have a higher amount of votes for him. I still wouldn't vote for him in a couple of years, because I can't dismiss that he didn't play up to his potential level. A similar argument I made for James in this season.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#163 » by ElGee » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:52 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:Do you think it's wrong to give the Finals added importance because of the stakes?


Well, I was hoping others would verbalize their opinions.

For me, "stakes" have less to do with rules. And in general, I'd lean toward Mustafa's thoughts on the matter...when the margin of error is smaller, it's more important. Then again, that's a bit unfair to guys who have no margin error...
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#164 » by mysticbb » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:56 pm

Elgee, the problem here is that most times the best teams met in the finals, thus we can assume that the competition is better, thus we can very well add something for the finals due to the better competition.

And how do you determine which players have "no margin of error" and which players don't have?
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread (Ends Sunday Night) 

Post#165 » by Gongxi » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:59 pm

mysticbb wrote:Gongxi, yes I'm german. I mentioned it a couple of times. And yes I might be biased, but so far you haven't even come close to dismissing any of my arguments with more than "it sucks, I don't care, I don't trust". So far I see that you are basing your votings solely on PER and something which is not measurable, and you add that "something" like you want. It is basically Gongxi-Adjusted-PER. That is hardly convincing at all.

Instead of actually discussing my arguments you are focussing on a search for biases, but you don't take your own bias into account. That makes it really tough to take you serious.


Seriously. You should try to communicate better.

I don't know where you got voting solely from PER from. Like...can you point to where I even implied that? I just wanted to ask you- since you explained away all of LeBron's advantages, while letting all of Dirk's advantages stand- why there would be such a large difference in their PER. You...didn't come close to answering that.

As already mentioned, the idea that I was being inconsistent is just plain wrong. If Dirk : Wade != LeBron : Dirk in those regular seasons. And Wade : Dirk != Dirk : LeBron in those playoffs.

You seem to be coming from the point of view of Dirk being the best and looking for something to disprove that. Maybe because he won the title (many people here are doing that), maybe because you're German. Maybe both. I, on the other hand, am looking at it from the perspective of LeBron having a sizable lead over everyone in the regular season and assessing what changed in the playoffs- and assessing if it changed enough. And I don't see it.

Somehow, to you, that equates to ONLY USE PER!! although you admit I didn't even do that in 2006. But, I guess that's just my problems communicating in English. Perhaps someday you can sit me down and teach me some of this wondrous language, so I can stop typing JUST PER!!! when I mean to be using other words. If you can understand this, that is, I think I'm typing something, but due to my poor communication skills, this might just be some Tears For Fears lyrics or something.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#166 » by ElGee » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:02 pm

mysticbb wrote:Elgee, margin of error is there. I agree that Nowitzki isn't forcing many turnovers (even though he has that weird stripping move when someone drives by him, and a couple of times that is incorrectly called as foul). But I don't see your idea of him being a negative on the defensive rebounding end, not even the slightest. The Mavericks are below average without him and well above average with him on the defensive rebounding end. Nowitzki was the best defensive rebounder of the Mavericks during the playoffs and by far the best in the finals. The RAPM guy is doing the same for rebounding and Nowitzki ends up being +1.9 in adjusted defensive rebounding, that meets my eye-test much more than your tracking. Maybe we focus on different things here, but somehow I get the feeling my focus is more relevant to the game.

You are also ignoring something which is really important from the defensive efficiency standpoint: reducing the amount of high efficient scoring opportunities. Being more efficient offensively helps in terms of setting up your team defense. And Nowitzki for sure makes the offense more efficient. You might want to argue that this has nothing to do with the actual abilities of a defender, BUT we are talking about a fluid game in which the action on both sides of the court impacting the overall results.


Well, that's a limitation in the methodology. One of THE hardest things to quantify (or even wrap your head around as a scout) is impact rebounding in a team setting. Why? Because of rotations and the way the damn ball bounces. Not to start a tangent, but Dennis Rodman might argue rebounding is geometry. So perhaps cheating toward the reflexive side of a shot is "good" in conjunction with a box out. Hard as hell to say.

PM family numbers are correlative, but comprehensive. So if Dirk is doing something positive there, the atomic measurement "defensive rebounds" won't measure it. Forced turnovers though, are huge on defense, especially when we consider defensive usage/how much control an individual defender can have. Forcing 5 turnovers in a game is fairly awesome.

You are correct about your offensive efficiency/no bad TOV argument. It's outside the score of every stat but the PM family, but it is something I want in future iterations of my metric. Even said, it would still be classified under "offense" probably, but you are right about the fluidity of the possessions.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#167 » by drza » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:22 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:I do believe this vote was a bit narrative driven. People really think Dirk has become THAT much better THIS year. I can't pull my thoughts around this.


I'm not sure I get this. I mean yeah, everyone votes differently, but was Dirk ever really THAT far out of the vote? For me personally, I had Dirk in my top-5 in 3 of the last 4 votes I did (I missed the 2010 vote), and in the one I left him out he was a virtua-tie for 5th and I just picked Duncan. But I had him as high as 2nd place in those votes, and I readily admit that he would have finished higher than the 4th I gave him in 2007 if not for his nightmare playoffs. I guess I just don't see where there's that much difference between a perennial top-5 guy and a #1 vote after an excellent run, not enough for all of the votes to have to be "narrative driven".
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread (Ends Sunday Night) 

Post#168 » by mysticbb » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:29 pm

Gongxi wrote:Seriously. You should try to communicate better.


Somehow I can communicate just fine with smart people, but it is indeed tough for me to communicate with not so smart ones.

Btw, when I was talking about communication skills my point was the semantics, not the syntax or grammar. ;)

Gongxi wrote:I don't know where you got voting solely from PER from.


Well, it is the only objective thing you ever used which was indeed supporting your view (somehow). The rest of the stuff you mentioned was for sure not in favor of Wade anno 2006. Or was Wade the better shooter? The more efficient scorer? The better rebounder? Just asking, because that was the stuff you mentioned.

And besides that I only read that you don't trust +/-, that Win Shares sucks, thus I have to assume that you either only use PER or you add something bizarre to it.

Gongxi wrote:Like...can you point to where I even implied that? I just wanted to ask you- since you explained away all of LeBron's advantages, while letting all of Dirk's advantages stand- why there would be such a large difference in their PER. You...didn't come close to answering that.


Pretty easy to explain, James had more assists and steals. As I said James was the better distributer and defender, no idea how you come up with the idea that I "explained away" all his advantages. I said that Nowitzki is better at impacting the game off-the-ball, wouldn't you agree on this?

Gongxi wrote:As already mentioned, the idea that I was being inconsistent is just plain wrong.


Yeah, you can say that a thousand times, but that doesn't reflect in your votes somehow. Taking the arguments you made so far doesn't explain why James, Wade and Bryant were ahead of Nowitzki in 2006 and doesn't explain why Bryant was ahead of Nowitzki in 2007. Come up with a reasonable explanation for those votes while being consistent with picking James in 2011, so far I DON'T SEE IT and someone else didn't see it either.

Gongxi wrote:You seem to be coming from the point of view of Dirk being the best and looking for something to disprove that. Maybe because he won the title (many people here are doing that), maybe because you're German. Maybe both. I, on the other hand, am looking at it from the perspective of LeBron having a sizable lead over everyone in the regular season and assessing what changed in the playoffs- and assessing if it changed enough. And I don't see it.


Yeah, we got it, you are objective, everyone else must be subjective. That might let you feel better about yourself, but that isn't a PROPER ARGUMENT in this discussion.

Gongxi wrote:Somehow, to you, that equates to ONLY USE PER!! although you admit I didn't even do that in 2006. But, I guess that's just my problems communicating in English. Perhaps someday you can sit me down and teach me some of this wondrous language, so I can stop typing JUST PER!!! when I mean to be using other words. If you can understand this, that is, I think I'm typing something, but due to my poor communication skills, this might just be some Tears For Fears lyrics or something.


Sorry, if I offended you, poor Gongxi. But wouldn't it be better to explain your argumentation better instead of writing that nonsens?



Elgee, just wanted to let you know that I read your post and agree with it.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#169 » by ronnymac2 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:42 pm

drza wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:I do believe this vote was a bit narrative driven. People really think Dirk has become THAT much better THIS year. I can't pull my thoughts around this.


I'm not sure I get this. I mean yeah, everyone votes differently, but was Dirk ever really THAT far out of the vote? For me personally, I had Dirk in my top-5 in 3 of the last 4 votes I did (I missed the 2010 vote), and in the one I left him out he was a virtua-tie for 5th and I just picked Duncan. But I had him as high as 2nd place in those votes, and I readily admit that he would have finished higher than the 4th I gave him in 2007 if not for his nightmare playoffs. I guess I just don't see where there's that much difference between a perennial top-5 guy and a #1 vote after an excellent run, not enough for all of the votes to have to be "narrative driven".


1.) The ease with which Nowitzki has been given the number one spot (don't think he deserves this many shares).

2.) Semi-unrelated to this project, but the amount of Dirk> "Player X who was superior to Dirk before 2011." They weren't saying that in 2010, when Dirk was just about equal to his 2011 self. I'm not saying Dirk isn't better than the Player Xs, but people are coming out of the woodwork with that type of thing. Your favorite player has been involved in these Dirk comparisons.

3.) I honestly don't think people can have Dirk at one and Lebron at two without admitting their judgments and rankings are narrative driven a little bit. If you really count LBJ's Finals against him, you'll have him lower than Wade and Dwight as well, not just the guy who won the title (For instance, I have James in fourth). If LeBron's Finals are merely a blemish on an all-around great season, then the King should take the number one spot regardless of any team accomplishment.

Wade/Dwight/Dirk are way too close together as players for LBJ's Finals to only nudge Dirk- the guy on the best team of the 2011 season- ahead of him. I feel it has to be one or the other. James atop, or James a dud.

Maybe I am being too polarizing about James here. If so, then just say you blame me for that and we'll let it go. :lol:
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#170 » by studcrackers » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:59 pm

i skimmed through your blog post on dirk and i sort of agree that dirks been this player for a few years and as a mavs fan i knew this (especially after killing it in the denver series) but the problem is his teammates at different times stepped up in the playoffs and that's something that hasnt been done really since the 06 conference finals
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread (Ends Sunday Night) 

Post#171 » by Gongxi » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:22 am

mysticbb wrote:
Gongxi wrote:Seriously. You should try to communicate better.


Somehow I can communicate just fine with smart people, but it is indeed tough for me to communicate with not so smart ones.


Yes, that was my point. What I was trying to get you to understand the first time you thought my communication skills were lacking.

You continue to believe that Dirk was as far ahead of Wade in 2006 as LeBron was Dirk in 2011. THIS IS WRONG, and since it's the foundation for the rest of your argument, YOU ARE WRONG.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread (Ends Sunday Night) 

Post#172 » by mysticbb » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:31 am

Gongxi wrote:You continue to believe that Dirk was as far ahead of Wade in 2006 as LeBron was Dirk in 2011. THIS IS WRONG, and since it's the foundation for the rest of your argument, YOU ARE WRONG.


And what measurements did you use to come up with that conclusion?
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#173 » by Gongxi » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:48 am

A variety. Their production, though, mostly (which we've already went over). Defense as well.

How did you come to your conclusion? +/- with a dash of the team records without them?
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#174 » by mysticbb » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:09 am

Gongxi wrote:A variety. Their production, though, mostly (which we've already went over). Defense as well.


Are you able to provide those numbers, because you haven't done it yet. Because when I look at their ability to shoot, I rather have Nowitzki than James, Nowitzki scored also better, Nowitzki was the better rebounder afterall. We have James as the better passer and defender. But how much do you value each of those things and come up with an overall evaluation based upon on objective numbers?

Gongxi wrote:How did you come to your conclusion? +/- with a dash of the team records without them?


Oh, I mentioned it numerous times: Production, Efficiency, Defense, Impact and Eye-Test. Production measured out by 3 different advanced boxscore metrics, PER, WS/48 and my own rating. Efficiency based up on scoring efficiency, turnover ratio and Synergy Sports offense. Defense based on Synergy Sports and defensive RAPM. And overall impact by RAPM, APM and On/Off Court ratings. If I take only the numbers (without the Eye-Test) I come to the conclusion that for the whole regular season and playoffs (with production and efficency numbers of the playoffs having twice as much weight as from the regular season) Nowitzki is barely ahead of James, not by much. On a possession basis they were both equal before the playoffs, James got the nod over him due to minutes played, based upon the idea that the missed time was bad for the Mavericks. Well, it obviously didn't matter for the Mavericks at all...

PER: 24.1 vs 25.9
WS/48: 0.212 vs. 0.227
My Rating: 0.293 vs. 0.293
Eff: 0.56 vs. 0.53
Synergy Off: 1.08 vs. 1.01
Synergy Def: 0.82 vs. 0.76
D RAPM: 2.5 vs. 2.8
RAPM: +7.2 vs. +4.1
APM: +16.6 vs. +6.3
On/Off: +16.3 vs. +5.6
Eye-Test: James with the ball, Nowitzki without, overall basically equal

Conclusion: the difference in boxscore metrics and Eye-Test isn't big with a slight favor for James, Synergy Sports slightly in favor of Nowitzki, +/- clearly in favor of Nowitzki. Nowitzki over James.

And yes, if that would be the other way around, I would argue for James over Nowitzki, like I did in 2010, 2009 and 2008, years in which the numbers favored James.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#175 » by Gongxi » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:23 pm

Per possession is interesting (that was sarcasm), do you take into account games missed as well?

So through the regular season, Dirk shot 61% (TS) and LeBron 59%. Dirk grabbed 12% of the available rebounds when he was on the court, LeBron 11%. Dirk 14% of the assists, LeBron 35%. LeBron scored 27 ppg, Dirk 24. LeBron 4 TOs, Dirk 2. And LeBron's defense was better.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't think Dirk comes close in that comparison. LeBron scored more on slightly lesser efficiency. That's...just about normal for scoring more. Rebounding was more or less even, less than one percent disparities don't give me wood. Obviously, LeBron is twice the playmaker Dirk is, even if he has another player that's twice the playmaker Dirk is on the same team. And then there's that defense.

We don't need to deal with the idea that Dirk played 9% less of the regular season that LeBron did, but obviously that doesn't tip the scales in Dirk's favor anyway.

So did Dirk play well enough, relative to LeBron, in the playoffs to eclipse that? No. But if you listen to that narrative...
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#176 » by mysticbb » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:27 pm

Gongxi wrote:Per possession is interesting (that was sarcasm), do you take into account games missed as well?


Can you read? Just asking ...

Gongxi wrote:So through the regular season, Dirk shot 61% (TS) and LeBron 59%. Dirk grabbed 12% of the available rebounds when he was on the court, LeBron 11%. Dirk 14% of the assists, LeBron 35%. LeBron scored 27 ppg, Dirk 24. LeBron 4 TOs, Dirk 2. And LeBron's defense was better.


So, we are using raw per game numbers, if it fits our argument while switching to possession based analyis, if that is better ... Nice, and where is your "narrative" about giving playoffs twice as much value? Because I can't see it in your numbers.

Gongxi wrote:Obviously, LeBron is twice the playmaker Dirk is, even if he has another player that's twice the playmaker Dirk is on the same team.


Having better teammates is now a positive thing for a player, nice.

Gongxi wrote:So did Dirk play well enough, relative to LeBron, in the playoffs to eclipse that? No. But if you listen to that narrative...


The problem with your evaluation is that you are doing exactly what you accuse others of. You have a preconception and now you go on and look to verify it. Everything which is against your view is thrown out of the window and the rest is a made up narrative to fit your agenda. And no, you are not doing it for a specific player, because you are a obsessed fan of him, you actually really believe you can maker a proper analysis without using many tools, you think you can do that analysis while being objective. That you are running into a bias here is something you can't see, because it is not in your mind that you are biased.

And next time I will just leave it at that, as I see that you haven't done any proper analysis before you posted your list. You haven't checked out how the numbers would look like, if the playoffs would indeed weighted twice as much. That shows to me a lot more, especially when I see your whiny posts all over this forum, how people are just going by a narrative. Nothing but "hot air".
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#177 » by Gongxi » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:47 pm

I just gave you what the reality was through the regular season (as opposed to your version of the events of the regular season). That doesn't mean run through the playoffs, and weigh it twice as much. I was casually and simply refuting your assertion of how it was through the regular season. I mean, I said 'regular season' right in the post, and it wasn't a very long one, you should've been able to keep it in mind. Which raises the ironic question:

Can you read?

Now take your German narrative and get the **** out.
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#178 » by mysticbb » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:29 pm

Gongxi, can we expect a post of you in which you make a proper analysis of players with the playoff games included, or can we agree that you either unable to do it or not willing to make the effort?
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Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#179 » by Gongxi » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:39 pm

No no, when did you stop beating your wife? Seriously, get the **** out.

You've added nothing here but a crusade for your boy. If you want to believe he's the best this season, go at it. Many people are swept up in that right now, although I predict as time goes on less will feel that way in retrospect. But to try to pretend that it's inconsistent of me and my process to vote Wade #1 in 2006 while not having Dirk #1 this year is where you've shown a bright, blinding bias, that I have no interest in arguing with, but every interest in laughing at.

So I'll mock and laugh. Not so much engage- not anymore, as you've been ever so unappreciative when I have given you information (Nuh uh you didn't give me information, you just said all you used was PER!)- just chuckle at your blindspot.

Auf wiedersehen.
HeatRing2012
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,326
And1: 293
Joined: Feb 27, 2011
 

Re: 2010-11 POY Voting Thread - Congrats Dirk Nowitzki! 

Post#180 » by HeatRing2012 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:05 pm

he added nothing?

actually he brought stats and facts.
you only stated subjective opinions.

win: mysticbb

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