RealGM Top 100 List #7

[Shaqsquatch]

Hmm.. that is closer then I thought but you also have to take into consideration how they performed against other opponents and the fact that SA's post defense was superior to LA's.

Would Duncan have produced aswell going against a defensive front line as good as his own?

Shaq was very good defensively especially in the early 00's but he never had a partner like DRob with him to try and slowdown Duncan with.

[/quote]


Your last post I thought mainly demonstrated that Duncan did a good job beasting the likes of Jr Ried, AC Green and Robert Horry. All of whom are very undersized compared to the 7'0 265 Duncan. While Shaq battled Duncan and D Rob - often at the same time. Looks like you have basically addressed that issue with this post.

[JordansBulls]

Here is a question for the group, how much does Duncan going down in round 1 as the #1 seed to an 8th seed hurt him here?

There is no group...I think you and AUF are the only ones using that ridiculous criteria.

You trying to say a #1 seed losing in round 1 to the #8 seed doesn't hurt a player?

[Baller 24]

I have a question. A poster listed in detail all the tangible things defensive centers are supposed to do in terms of team defense. Seeing as how Duncan during the "ring" years always had another 7 footer on the court with him with identical defensive responsibilities, my question is how in the world do you go about separating Duncan's team defense contribution from D-Robs or Rasho or Nzar's outside of blocks and rebounds. Or are you just content to award Duncan 90 percent of the credit?

Well one of the reason's the '99 team was so powerful was because of Robinson and Duncan's defensive value. They did it again in '00, Robinson was playing KG-esque defense, but it's too bad Duncan wasn't there in the playoffs. After '01, you see Robinson's decline and Duncan's still anchoring at the same consistent level.

Even after his retirement the Spurs are amongst the best in the league in almost every defensive attribute. RE: Rasho and Nzar, they're just solid rotation players that can help with the weak-side, Shaq had Horace in '01 doing the same thing. Aside from that speculation, maybe ElGee has numbers of the gain/loss offensive and defensive value of Duncan when he went down in '01, or any of his missed games during that time frame.

As I mentioned before - when Duncan shows hard on the pick and roll - the opposing team can't simply go baseline because there was another 7 foot defensive minded anchor always near the basket. That makes a huge difference stat wise over time I would think. Imagine what Shaq's team defense would be like if showed on the pick and roll - and had Dwight Howard still under the basket. Imagine again D howard getting stiffed on the credit because of the position he played was stacked (D-Rob)while Shaq getting all the credit because of the position he played was lacking competition(Duncan) - allowing him to rack up accolades. Giving Duncan near total credit for the Spurs awsome team defense stats and success when they are inseperately intertwined seems wrong.

He's not getting complete credit, Robinson's defense and value was still DPOY level until '00, but you can say the same thing offensively/defensively on the perimeter, imagine if Duncan had a player of Bryant's caliber capable of shouldering the load, closing out games, and creating his own shot?

[An Unbiased Fan]

1) If Bryant is considered on par with Bird as a facilitator, than he's clearly better than or on par with LeBron James, and we all know that isn't remotely close.

Lebron's AST% has been better than both Kobe & Bird's. In his prime, Lebron has been on par with Kobe in points created, and slighty ahead of Bird.

A better question people should start asking is whether Bird is the best Point-Forward ever, or is that Lebron. Lebron's PTS% & AST% are higher than Bird's, and he's a better defender. Now for me, I count playoff performances & success, along with longevity & accolades, so Bird is still ahead by a decent margin at this point. However....for those who think playoff success 7 accolades shouldn't matter, and that "peak" is the most important thing, how is Bird ahead of Lebron?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shaq and Duncan faced each other a total of 5 times in the playoffs from '99 to '04. Shaq (not Bryant) won 3 of the playoff series ('01, '02, '04), while Duncan won 2 ('99, '03).

Baller, how can you say Shaq(not Bryant) won those series, when Kobe was clearly the best player on the floor for either team in all 3 series?

[Baller 24]

Hmm.. that is closer then I thought but you also have to take into consideration how they performed against other opponents and the fact that SA's post defense was superior to LA's.

Would Duncan have produced aswell going against a defensive front line as good as his own?

Shaq was very good defensively especially in the early 00's but he never had a partner like DRob with him to try and slowdown Duncan with.

1) Lakers in the '01 playoff run showcased Shaq anchoring at his finest, he was playing at the level of how he did in '00 (clear DPOY candidate). And that's with Horace Grant, still very capable of contributing on the defensive end, especially on the weak-side rotations:

Rasheed Wallace: 16.7 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 2.3APG, FG 37%, 3PT 36%

Chris Webber: 26.2 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 3.75 APG, FG 42%

Of course this is all with Shaq anchoring, so if we're speaking statistically, so yes Duncan still faced a defense that was on caliber in the playoffs of his own, and again Grant was still very well a solid contributing defensive asset capable of holding his own.

2) If you're going to bring up Robinson, you can also bring up the question what if Duncan had a player on the perimeter of that of Kobe Bryant? He's capable of making clutch plays, creating his own shot, capable of closing games, and during the three-peat playing elite defense. Robinson & Shaq on the team w/Kobe obviously is an insane team, but what if it's just Robinson & Shaq? with San Antonio's role players? Do they accomplish a lot ?

[Baller 24]

Shaq and Duncan faced each other a total of 5 times in the playoffs from '99 to '04. Shaq (not Bryant) won 3 of the playoff series ('01, '02, '04), while Duncan won 2 ('99, '03).

Baller, how can you say Shaq(not Bryant) won those series, when Kobe was clearly the best player on the floor for either team in all 3 series?

Shaq's team, best player on the team, very clear leader of the team. When I compare the two I don't think of Bryant v Duncan, I think Shaq v Duncan. Bryant didn't come into the equation until Duncan's was on the decline. Sorry, just my thought process, not that it has anything to do with the argument in Duncan's favor.

[Baller 24]

Lebron's AST% has been better than both Kobe & Bird's. In his prime, Lebron has been on par with Kobe in points created, and slighty ahead of Bird.

A better question people should start asking is whether Bird is the best Point-Forward ever, or is that Lebron. Lebron's PTS% & AST% are higher than Bird's, and he's a better defender. Now for me, I count playoff performances & success, along with longevity & accolades, so Bird is still ahead by a decent margin at this point. However....for those who think playoff success 7 accolades shouldn't matter, and that "peak" is the most important thing, how is Bird ahead of Lebron?

That's the thing, playoff success at peak form does matter, especially if you're debating a spot as high as number 6 on the all-time list. Consider it like this, LeBron's peak has given him such a signicant edge, that even with 1 contributing role in a championship puts him in the top 10 border. He's very clearly showcased during an 82 game sample size for 3 seasons now GOAT level play. That's how amazing LeBron James is, but that's not for awhile.

[ElGee]

re: Kobe and assists -- they certainly don't tell the whole story. I wouldn't say his creation/pressure on defense has always been where we tend to think of someone like LeBron's (in 06 he just shot it more), but it's the same sphere basically. At his best, this was definitely a top overall offensive player, which includes forcing defensive pressure and making good passes (especially later in his career IMO).

Duncan v Shaq Paint Defense

There is a figure hoopstats records that might be of interest here (since 1998). It is defense in the paint. For the Lakers, the numbers were:

LAL Paint Defense
1998 45.8% (8th) 32.3 (25th) 12.7 FTA (23rd)
1999 48.4% (22nd) 31.8 (25th) 14.3 FTA (28th)
2000 42.6% (2nd) 32.3 FGA (20th) 10.5 FTA (8th)
2001 No data
2002 43.6% (1st) 30.7 FGA (25th) 10.3 FTA (11th)
2003 46.4% (14th) 30.9 FGA (25th) 10.5 FTA (17th)
2004 45.9% (9th) 27.2 FGA (2nd) 9.6 FTA (7th)

In 2005, Shaq went to Miami and the Heat jumped to 2nd in the league in FG% against in the paint. The Lakers dropped to 21st. As for the Spurs:

SAS Paint Defense
1999 41.3% (1st) 32.3 FGA (26th) 11.0 FTA (7th)
2000 43.7% (3rd) 32.4 FGA (23rd) 8.6 FTA (2nd)
2001 No Data
2002 44.7% (5th) 30.4 FGA (23rd) 7.8 FTA (1st)
2003 43.8% (2nd) 30.0 FGA (20th) 8.6 FTA (1st)
2004 43.6% (2nd) 28.9 FGA (13th) 9.9 FTA (9th)
2005 45.8% (6th) 31.1 FGA (24th) 10.4 FTA (10th)
2006 46.3% (6th) 29.4 FGA (17th) 10.4 FTA (14th)
2007 45.8% (2nd) 30.2 FGA (24th) 9.4 FTA (4th)

2004 is when David Robinson retired and Duncan was paired with Rasho, later guys like Oberto and Elson. Outside of fouling more in the paint, the numbers look pretty similar, which is a testament to Duncan's defense IMO.

Note, firstly, that no one was afraid of coming into the paint against LA (even if they were funneled there). The Lakers from 98-03 regularly had high number of shots taken on them in the lane. In 98 and 99, they sent guys to the line like crazy.

One year that totally jumps to me is 2002 for the Lakers. Shaq misses his usual 15 games, but the team still finishes first in FG% defense in the paint. So, either Shaq had a Herculean effect out of nowhere, or something else is going on. In the game O'Neal missed, LAL's DRtg was about 2 points worse...but it was still a stellar 103.7.

Crazy as it sounds, maybe Samaki Walker and Mark Madsen played good paint D for LA that year, along with good team play by guys like Fox, Horry and Kobe. There's little to suggest that O'Neal was *that* good defensively in 2002. (For instance, in 2003 opp eFG% was 48% with him, 47% with him out). Yet the Lakers finished first in that stat...

Duncan's 03 on/off shows us opp eFG% of 44.4% with him in and 49.5% with him out...

Nonetheless, the overall trend there is clear, and it reflects the common perceptions. Shaq's defense was there during his best years, and Duncan's defense was just always there.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shaq and Duncan faced each other a total of 5 times in the playoffs from '99 to '04. Shaq (not Bryant) won 3 of the playoff series ('01, '02, '04), while Duncan won 2 ('99, '03).

Baller, how can you say Shaq(not Bryant) won those series, when Kobe was clearly the best player on the floor for either team in all 3 series?

Shaq's team, best player on the team, very clear leader of the team. When I compare the two I don't think of Bryant v Duncan, I think Shaq v Duncan. Bryant didn't come into the equation until Duncan's was on the decline. Sorry, just my thought process, not that it has anything to do with the argument in Duncan's favor.

I actually think your points about Shaq & Duncan's differing situations are very much on point.

I just have a problem with Shaq getting credit for those playoff wins, when Kobe played the best of the 3, and had the big games for LA.

[Baller 24]

I actually think your points about Shaq & Duncan's differing situations are very much on point.

I just have a problem with Shaq getting credit for those playoff wins, when Kobe played the best of the 3, and had the big games for LA.

Oh of course Bryant deserves credit, check out what I stated above, imagine if Duncan had a player of Bryant's caliber capable of doing almost everything on the perimeter side?

[Dr Positivity]

Question, where has Tsherkin been? I would have thought he'd be all over these threads?

Not that he hasn't been absent anyways, but if I'm not mistaken, he's never been the type to argue all time rankings or post much about players before the 80s (which I assume is when his personal experience starts)

[Sedale Threatt]

Before I forget,

Vote: O'Neal
Nominate: James

[Sedale Threatt]

Hakeem only had 3?!?!?!?

I need Bastillon for support.

Please, no. These threads have been enjoyably civil.

[Baller 24]

Vote: Tim Duncan

Nominate: LeBron James

[shawngoat23]

Vote: Shaq (over Hakeem). I feel Shaq's prime was clearly higher than anyone else on the list beside possibly Hakeem. They were pretty much equal as players, possibly even a slight edge to Hakeem, but Shaq had a better career (due to better circumstance involving teammates and the relative strength of the rest of the league, especially at his position). But I'm treating this about 50% as a career ranking, not just a "power ranking" (in terms of which players I felt were most individually talented and/or impactful. So Shaq it is.

Nominate: LeBron. I may end up voting for someone like David Robinson or Charles Barkley over LeBron, but LeBron earns my nomination as being the least unreasonable choice for being in contention for #8 by the next round.

[ronnymac2]

http://nba-information.blogspot.com/2010/02/shaq-inside-has-made-big-difference-for_06.html

This was an NBA.com article, but you can't see it there now, presumably because of the lockout. I found it here though.

Points in the paint have been tracked since the 2000-01 season. And in eight of the 10 seasons since, Shaq's team has ranked in the top three in points-in-the-paint differential.

One anomaly was the 2002-03 Lakers, when Kobe Bryant became the team's leading scorer for the first time and shot a lot more threes than he ever had. The other was the season when Shaq was traded from Miami to Phoenix in February and played just 61 games total.

Diesel in the paint
How Shaquille O'Neal's teams have fared
Season Team PIP Diff Rank
2000-01 Lakers +6.7 3
2001-02 Lakers +7.1 2
2002-03 Lakers +3.6 8
2003-04 Lakers +6.6 1
2004-05 Heat +10.5 1
2005-06 Heat +12.0 1
2006-07 Heat +5.5 3
2007-08 Heat (47 G) -5.3 28
2007-08 Suns (34 G) +0.1 17
2008-09 Suns +12.6 1
2009-10 Cavs +9.4 1

PIP Diff = Difference between points-in-paint made
and points allowed in paint

Just food for thought...

[34Dayz]

Wow @ those 2 first years on the heat.. o.o

[UDRIH14]

The series spurs v suns in with shaq on the suns...clearly showed or exploited shaqs weakness...hack a shack....both players clearly on the decline..but duncan outplayed him

[ronnymac2]

The series spurs v suns in with shaq on the suns...clearly showed or exploited shaqs weakness...hack a shack....both players clearly on the decline..but duncan outplayed him

That's about as useful as using the '99 series between Houston and Los Angeles to determine Shaq vs. Hakeem.