Will too much muscle mess up your skills?

[wilhelmthe1st]

I'm also hoping for a Dragonball GT review. This thread got me motivated to watch DBZ again, but should I go all out and watch GT?

GT is terrible
Just watch Dragonball Z

Yeah, GT is horrible.

[wilhelmthe1st]

These are pros. They don't really build too much anything. Their lifestyle pretty much means unlike trying out USSJ for the first time, these guys actually have an off-season to get used to their new body.

It's more like maybe blind muscle sculpting gets combined with added muscles and sometimes that takes away from skills training. Other times it's the wrong skills and not actually the training part. Other times it's the lack of evolution in their skills.

Dwight and Rose for example are monsters and their weight training know how and regimen probably far surpasses MJ's or Shaq's based on how fast they close the gap in physicality even though they are arguably less gifted players. Yet even with this and their probable superior work ethic, they don't focus on the urgency of the situation and they find themselves in disappointing moments everytime they meet a smart adversary in the playoffs. Dwight doesn't train enough in his confidence so all that muscle becomes over-compensation rather than an additional edge. Rose similarly has an inflated sense of his offensive success in the regular season so all the off season effort is wasted in the post-season when he lets his guard down.

If you want to use a DBZ moment, compare it to how Freeza was bulking up to 100% not some urgent form Trunks has to assume because there wasn't enough of an off-season to test it.

Freeza had tons of success in the regular planets with no legendary SSJ. By far if it weren't for the fillers, he arguably could be the most powerful since there's no proof his father is as strong as him and even if he was - Freeza was far younger. Freeza is the Dwight and Rose and Lebron of the NBA. They are battle tested individuals who can turn it up season after season and scare the rankings for how much dominant they are at such a young age and how much playoff battles they've already gone through in terms of attrition.

However Freeza rarely goes at 100% because he doesn't need to. Going so much as to toy with his prey. Dwight even hinted at this in an interview. Something about training with Olajuwon teaching him the difference between a ninja and a mercenary. For the most part, Freeza is a ninja and while ninjas are cool there's a reason why in reality they are assassins. Their moves are designed to be go to moves and yet Lebron, Dwight and to an extent Rose' go to moves are not varied and optimized enough to really become fall back moves. Instead their secret moves end up becoming predictable power up moves they fall back on.

This is why Freeza not only lost his squad but allowed Goku to reach Namek and become the legendary SSJ. Zaza, Barea, Gasol, Perkins even Lebron when he guarded Rose wasn't aiming to "beat" Dwight/Lebron/Rose. Same way Krillin and Gohan and Vegeta wasn't aiming to beat Freeza.

They were simply aiming to limit Freeza and hoping a miracle would happen. When that miracle happened, Freeza still had a chance. After all he was the one who could go 100%. He was the one with experience dealing with that type of power while Goku had to get used to it on short notice.

However Freeza had the wrong mindset even in his off-season and it finally caught up. Just as Dwight still had his moves, Rose was still a pg with improved playmaking and Lebron as horrible as he was posting up still was someone who could use that silly foul on Barea as an aggressive motivation - their muscular training had reduced the mental aspect of their instincts under pressure even though they aren't as mentally weak. Freeza similarly could have battled against Goku in a war of attrition in which he could probably win but his muscular pride in his super secret ninja move being unbeaten made him forget the difference between a super powered mercenary who is mentally more ready to beat him for a greater cause than his own self deluded value of proving his ninja moves superior. The result was that Freeza ends up losing because he tried to play the superior game of his opponent. A game that even there is close to equal but every frustrated technicals, every failed drives, every humiliating words edged it closer to the mercenary who grew more motivationally stronger as the battle go on where as the muscle guys who hid behind those muscles slowly crumbled and seemingly choked themselves out.

The USSJ failure is much closer to Gasol's failure the first time against Boston. Up to that point in time, the legendary SSJ was already seen as some ultimate unbeatable transformation and that was who Gasol was when he went to LA. Unlike Goku who had faced superior opponents before that nearly killed him while he wasn't a SSJ, Trunks came from a timeline when that transformation was the key. Similarly when Gasol came to LA, it was like he became part of the unspoken NBA champion not just because of the prestige of playing with Kobe but because of the ease the way LA went through almost every team even against the Spurs were Gasol and Kobe simply activated their patented pick and roll and it jarred the normally quick to adapt Spurs.

Then suddenly here comes Cell who were making it tough for the Super Saiyan to perform even on equal terms. Trunks and Gasol had to do something so they tried compensating for who they were and it just hurt the team more. The USSJ may be flawed in that it made the bearer slow but to someone like Trunks who had an exposure to the SSJ transformation as a god send and not just an additional power-up, the USSJ felt like the perfect instinctive back up if the powered up SSJ wasn't enough. And to an extent he's right. USSJ may be slow but SSJ's are darn fast to begin with. Not to mention durable. Under the right opponent who wasn't as mentally cold blooded and hungry as Boston or Cell that would have unnerved them enough in the same way Goku messed up Freeza. I.E. it was a near perfect considering the solution basically meant creating SSJ 2 which at that point had no reference to and Gohan only achieved because of his superior power to Trunks. Unfortunately the solution ended up being a mistake because just like Gasol, Trunks was trying to play a perfect game but although it was perfect, it was still imperfect against the opposing team. Trunks in his attempt to unlock the perfect solution within his body ends up forgetting to look at who his opponent is.

The only comparable element this has to Lebron, is that Lebron might have also tried to play a perfect game and forgot to factor in the way Dallas is and the way Miami is as a roster. That resulted in him becoming more passive. He thought he was being the perfect Pippen to Wade with the triple doubles and the play making and he completely forget that the way Miami was built, they needed Lebron to simply contribute to the team.

The problem with the comparison is that Lebron is on Gohan's level. Even if SSJ2 Gohan went USSJ2, he could have hurt Cell. More importantly, Gohan would realize that at his power level, he needn't go USSJ2 to compensate for the power level since SSJ2 was enough. He just has to get mad.

Instead Gohan does an about face and Wade err... Goku ends up having to bail his ass out there and thankfully the NBA Finals isn't a do or die game but nonetheless Wade ends up injurying himself trying to compensate for Lebron and unfortunately Lebron didn't unleash the beast. Of course the comparison ends there since Dallas is in no way the Perfect Cell of the NBA.

This is pretty much the greatest post of all time.

[wilhelmthe1st]

It's a shame that Akira Toriyama caved to the fans and his editors by making Goku beat a weaker Buu in the end. His plan all along was to have Gohan be the hero at the end, but the fans just had to cry.

/Gohan-fan

Its terrible how Gohan got his mystic powerup and then was forced to fight Buutenks. Just like how every character except for Goku is smacked right after they power up. I will never forget how when Piccolo became a Super Namek and all the rumors up to that point was that Super Nameks **** on Super Saiyans and yet he frickin got destroyed by Semi-Perfect Cell. Not Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell FRICKIN SEMI-PERFECT CELL

"Super Namek" isn't really a thing. Piccolo was just got a huge power boost from fusing with Kami to become a complete being (plus Nail! Won't somebody remember Nail!) again so he was actually a full Namek again.

Gohan was a bitch. All the way from the very beginning until he fights Cell where he was cool for that one fight, but still manages to be a bitch and doesn't want to use his full power until OMG-noz an android got his head smashed in (big-f-cking-deal) NOW I'm going to use my full power to stop you, because you know the threat of you killing my father and all my friends and destroying the entire world didn't really matter, but you crush some machines head? Oh it's on! - Stupid.

And then he goes to school? Stops training, becomes the 'Great Saiya-man'... really? Is actually weaker at an adult (in the World Tournament) than when he was a 12,13 year old kid? Please.

[GoSixersBro]

Answer to this topic: Yes

Why do you think Iguodala can't shoot? Gotta be the arms!

[venky]

SSJ3 Goku is the strongest actually. He could have ended it easily, but he wanted the others to finally save the f***ing day instead of taking all the glory himself. Which he ends up doing anyways.

Wrong. He said he could have probably beaten Fat Buu, but he wanted to give the young uns the chance. He crapped his pants when Super Buu was about to charge at him while Gohan was looking for the Potaraa ring in the rocks. Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku.

Do you want more proof? Gohan ragdolled Super Buu. It was like SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell, it wasn't even close. Gohan didn't even fire off a ki blast in that fight, that is how dominant he was. But Goku went on record to say that even him plus Vegeta un-fused would stand no chance against Super Buu (this was when they were inside Super Buu's body). So if Gohan could ragdoll Super Buu, and if Goku said himself he'd stand no chance, that makes Mystic Gohan stronger.

[big_ticket]

no,just ask lebron james...

[KAVK]

Carmelo is more skilled than Lebron? Do u mean like offensive moves or whatever?

Carmelo has better shooting touch & can post up Lebron down low and destroy him. Does not look cut or muscular but that dude is a bull.

[KAVK]

Derrick Rose looks pretty skilled to me, and has every offensive dribbling move and fluid motion in the book. Not sure if I buy this thread.. Footwork has more to do with practice, and less to do with muscle mass.

Muscle type matters the most.

[Rondo]

SSJ3 Goku is the strongest actually. He could have ended it easily, but he wanted the others to finally save the f***ing day instead of taking all the glory himself. Which he ends up doing anyways.

Wrong. He said he could have probably beaten Fat Buu, but he wanted to give the young uns the chance. He crapped his pants when Super Buu was about to charge at him while Gohan was looking for the Potaraa ring in the rocks. Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku.

Do you want more proof? Gohan ragdolled Super Buu. It was like SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell, it wasn't even close. Gohan didn't even fire off a ki blast in that fight, that is how dominant he was. But Goku went on record to say that even him plus Vegeta un-fused would stand no chance against Super Buu (thisc G was when they were inside Super Buu's body). So if Gohan could ragdoll Super Buu, and if Goku said himself he'd stand no chance, that makes Mystio gohan stronger.

There is no way Mystic Gohan could defeat Kid Buu. SSJ3 Goku would've beaten Kid Buu if Goku didn't let hold back to let Vegeta have a chance of fighing Kid Buu. Making SSJ3 Goku stronger.

[KAVK]

These are pros. They don't really build too much anything. Their lifestyle pretty much means unlike trying out USSJ for the first time, these guys actually have an off-season to get used to their new body.

It's more like maybe blind muscle sculpting gets combined with added muscles and sometimes that takes away from skills training. Other times it's the wrong skills and not actually the training part. Other times it's the lack of evolution in their skills.

Dwight and Rose for example are monsters and their weight training know how and regimen probably far surpasses MJ's or Shaq's based on how fast they close the gap in physicality even though they are arguably less gifted players. Yet even with this and their probable superior work ethic, they don't focus on the urgency of the situation and they find themselves in disappointing moments everytime they meet a smart adversary in the playoffs. Dwight doesn't train enough in his confidence so all that muscle becomes over-compensation rather than an additional edge. Rose similarly has an inflated sense of his offensive success in the regular season so all the off season effort is wasted in the post-season when he lets his guard down.

If you want to use a DBZ moment, compare it to how Freeza was bulking up to 100% not some urgent form Trunks has to assume because there wasn't enough of an off-season to test it.

Freeza had tons of success in the regular planets with no legendary SSJ. By far if it weren't for the fillers, he arguably could be the most powerful since there's no proof his father is as strong as him and even if he was - Freeza was far younger. Freeza is the Dwight and Rose and Lebron of the NBA. They are battle tested individuals who can turn it up season after season and scare the rankings for how much dominant they are at such a young age and how much playoff battles they've already gone through in terms of attrition.

However Freeza rarely goes at 100% because he doesn't need to. Going so much as to toy with his prey. Dwight even hinted at this in an interview. Something about training with Olajuwon teaching him the difference between a ninja and a mercenary. For the most part, Freeza is a ninja and while ninjas are cool there's a reason why in reality they are assassins. Their moves are designed to be go to moves and yet Lebron, Dwight and to an extent Rose' go to moves are not varied and optimized enough to really become fall back moves. Instead their secret moves end up becoming predictable power up moves they fall back on.

This is why Freeza not only lost his squad but allowed Goku to reach Namek and become the legendary SSJ. Zaza, Barea, Gasol, Perkins even Lebron when he guarded Rose wasn't aiming to "beat" Dwight/Lebron/Rose. Same way Krillin and Gohan and Vegeta wasn't aiming to beat Freeza.

They were simply aiming to limit Freeza and hoping a miracle would happen. When that miracle happened, Freeza still had a chance. After all he was the one who could go 100%. He was the one with experience dealing with that type of power while Goku had to get used to it on short notice.

However Freeza had the wrong mindset even in his off-season and it finally caught up. Just as Dwight still had his moves, Rose was still a pg with improved playmaking and Lebron as horrible as he was posting up still was someone who could use that silly foul on Barea as an aggressive motivation - their muscular training had reduced the mental aspect of their instincts under pressure even though they aren't as mentally weak. Freeza similarly could have battled against Goku in a war of attrition in which he could probably win but his muscular pride in his super secret ninja move being unbeaten made him forget the difference between a super powered mercenary who is mentally more ready to beat him for a greater cause than his own self deluded value of proving his ninja moves superior. The result was that Freeza ends up losing because he tried to play the superior game of his opponent. A game that even there is close to equal but every frustrated technicals, every failed drives, every humiliating words edged it closer to the mercenary who grew more motivationally stronger as the battle go on where as the muscle guys who hid behind those muscles slowly crumbled and seemingly choked themselves out.

The USSJ failure is much closer to Gasol's failure the first time against Boston. Up to that point in time, the legendary SSJ was already seen as some ultimate unbeatable transformation and that was who Gasol was when he went to LA. Unlike Goku who had faced superior opponents before that nearly killed him while he wasn't a SSJ, Trunks came from a timeline when that transformation was the key. Similarly when Gasol came to LA, it was like he became part of the unspoken NBA champion not just because of the prestige of playing with Kobe but because of the ease the way LA went through almost every team even against the Spurs were Gasol and Kobe simply activated their patented pick and roll and it jarred the normally quick to adapt Spurs.

Then suddenly here comes Cell who were making it tough for the Super Saiyan to perform even on equal terms. Trunks and Gasol had to do something so they tried compensating for who they were and it just hurt the team more. The USSJ may be flawed in that it made the bearer slow but to someone like Trunks who had an exposure to the SSJ transformation as a god send and not just an additional power-up, the USSJ felt like the perfect instinctive back up if the powered up SSJ wasn't enough. And to an extent he's right. USSJ may be slow but SSJ's are darn fast to begin with. Not to mention durable. Under the right opponent who wasn't as mentally cold blooded and hungry as Boston or Cell that would have unnerved them enough in the same way Goku messed up Freeza. I.E. it was a near perfect considering the solution basically meant creating SSJ 2 which at that point had no reference to and Gohan only achieved because of his superior power to Trunks. Unfortunately the solution ended up being a mistake because just like Gasol, Trunks was trying to play a perfect game but although it was perfect, it was still imperfect against the opposing team. Trunks in his attempt to unlock the perfect solution within his body ends up forgetting to look at who his opponent is.

The only comparable element this has to Lebron, is that Lebron might have also tried to play a perfect game and forgot to factor in the way Dallas is and the way Miami is as a roster. That resulted in him becoming more passive. He thought he was being the perfect Pippen to Wade with the triple doubles and the play making and he completely forget that the way Miami was built, they needed Lebron to simply contribute to the team.

The problem with the comparison is that Lebron is on Gohan's level. Even if SSJ2 Gohan went USSJ2, he could have hurt Cell. More importantly, Gohan would realize that at his power level, he needn't go USSJ2 to compensate for the power level since SSJ2 was enough. He just has to get mad.

Instead Gohan does an about face and Wade err... Goku ends up having to bail his ass out there and thankfully the NBA Finals isn't a do or die game but nonetheless Wade ends up injurying himself trying to compensate for Lebron and unfortunately Lebron didn't unleash the beast. Of course the comparison ends there since Dallas is in no way the Perfect Cell of the NBA.

This is pretty much the greatest post of all time.

+1

[KAVK]

SSJ3 Goku is the strongest actually. He could have ended it easily, but he wanted the others to finally save the f***ing day instead of taking all the glory himself. Which he ends up doing anyways.

Wrong. He said he could have probably beaten Fat Buu, but he wanted to give the young uns the chance. He crapped his pants when Super Buu was about to charge at him while Gohan was looking for the Potaraa ring in the rocks. Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku.

Do you want more proof? Gohan ragdolled Super Buu. It was like SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell, it wasn't even close. Gohan didn't even fire off a ki blast in that fight, that is how dominant he was. But Goku went on record to say that even him plus Vegeta un-fused would stand no chance against Super Buu (thisc G was when they were inside Super Buu's body). So if Gohan could ragdoll Super Buu, and if Goku said himself he'd stand no chance, that makes Mystio gohan stronger.

There is no way Mystic Gohan could defeat Kid Buu. SSJ3 Goku would've beaten Kid Buu if Goku didn't let hold back to let Vegeta have a chance of fighing Kid Buu. Making SSJ3 Goku stronger.

Venky is accurate on Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku.

Kid Buu was baddest one even Goku at SSJ3 could not beat him used a trick ass spirit bomb stunt at the end with help from earth through fake a@@ chump.He did admit that he could have probably beaten fat buu but not Kid Buu. Vegeta's pride almost cost the damn universe.

[spacemonkey]

Also, Gilbert Arenas has a really bulky ass in that planking pic of him.

Wow that was super gay, bro...

[KAVK]

Also, Gilbert Arenas has a really bulky ass in that planking pic of him.

Wow that was super gay, bro...

gay or female .

[venky]

SSJ3 Goku is the strongest actually. He could have ended it easily, but he wanted the others to finally save the f***ing day instead of taking all the glory himself. Which he ends up doing anyways.

Wrong. He said he could have probably beaten Fat Buu, but he wanted to give the young uns the chance. He crapped his pants when Super Buu was about to charge at him while Gohan was looking for the Potaraa ring in the rocks. Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku.

Do you want more proof? Gohan ragdolled Super Buu. It was like SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell, it wasn't even close. Gohan didn't even fire off a ki blast in that fight, that is how dominant he was. But Goku went on record to say that even him plus Vegeta un-fused would stand no chance against Super Buu (thisc G was when they were inside Super Buu's body). So if Gohan could ragdoll Super Buu, and if Goku said himself he'd stand no chance, that makes Mystio gohan stronger.

There is no way Mystic Gohan could defeat Kid Buu. SSJ3 Goku would've beaten Kid Buu if Goku didn't let hold back to let Vegeta have a chance of fighing Kid Buu. Making SSJ3 Goku stronger.

lolwut? Kid Buu is WEAKER than Super Buu!! In the original Japanese manga, it's stated that Kid Buu is the most dangerous, not the strongest. This is because Kid Buu is, well, like a kid. He can't be reasoned with, unlike Fat Buu and Super Buu. Face it, Toriyama HAD to create a weaker Buu for Goku to kill, and even then, he needed the whole Earth to help him. Gohan would murder Kid Buu.

But, explain to me how Goku > Gohan, if Goku himself said he'd get destroyed by Super Buu while Gohan raped him? Explain, I'd love to hear it. Gohan is the strongest UNFUSED character in all of DBZ.

[albert]

Posting in epic thread. Also, speaking in terms of muscle mass, I can't wait to see what type of players Dwight and Lebron will be by age 35. If they don't reinvent themselves and refine their games, the decline could be pretty brutal to watch.

[venky]

Posting in epic thread. Also, speaking in terms of muscle mass, I can't wait to see what type of players Dwight and Lebron will be by age 35. If they don't reinvent themselves and refine their games, the decline could be pretty brutal to watch.

I bet my life LeBron won't reinvent his game. In fact, I guarantee it.

[D Nice]

Yes, in some/most cases anyway. Am I really going to be the first person to bring up Kwame Brown, 11 pages in? His career is virtually a case study on the subject.

[Jheri Curl]

Well, LeBron is a great player, but he does suffer from a lack of fluidity in his moves. I think you can attribute that to him being so big, of course.

[LaLa]

I <3 this thread and DBZ.

[Archerbro]

from what i understand alot of players do certain stretches before and after they workout specifically so they don't mess up their jumpshot. and dirk back in 2008 got bigger and he said it messed with his jumpshot for a while, I don't remember where i think it was the dallasmorningnews.