RealGM Top 100 List #12

[Baller 24]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Bob Pettit

NBA Champion (1958)
2× NBA MVP (1956, 1959)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1956, 1958–1959, 1962)
11× NBA All-Star (1955–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1955)
10× All-NBA First Team (1955–1964)
All-NBA Second Team (1965)
2× NBA Scoring Champion (1957, 1959)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

David Robinson

2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star

Dirk Nowitzki

# NBA MVP (2007)
# NBA Champion (2011)
# NBA Finals MVP (2011)
# 4x All-NBA 1st Team
# 5x All-NBA 2nd Team
# 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
# 10x NBA All-Star

Charles Barkley

# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006

LeBron James

# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)

Kevin Garnett

# NBA Champion (2009)
# NBA MVP (2004)
# 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (2000,2003-2004, 2008)
# 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2001-2002, 2005)
# 2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1999, 2007)
# NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2008)
# 9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2000-2005, 2008-2009, 2011)
# 2x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (2006-2007)
# 14x All-Star
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2004)

Oscar Robertson

* NBA Champion (1971)
* NBA MVP (1964)
* NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
* 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1961-1969)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970-1971)
* 12× All-Star (1961-1972)
* Voted to the HOF in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Jerry West

* NBA Champion (1972)
* NBA Finals MVP (1969)
* 14× All-Star (1961-1974)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1962-1967, 1970-1973)
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1968-1969)
* 4X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1970-1973)
* 1X NBA All-Defense Team Selection (1969)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1980
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Karl Malone

# 2x NBA MVP (1997, 1999)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1989, 1993)
# 11x All-NBA First Team Selection (1988-1999)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986-2000)
# 1x All-NBA Third Team Selectin (2001)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1997-1999)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1988)
# 1986 All-Rookie 1st Team
# Elected to the Basketball HOF in 2010 as a player

Moses Malone

* 1x NBA Champion 1983 Philadelphia 76ers (NBA)
* 3x MVP (1979, 1982, 1983)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1978-1989), 1x ABA All-Star (1975)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection (1979, 1982, 1983, 1985)
* 4x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1980, 1981, 1984, 1987)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1983)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection (1979)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1983)
* All Rookie Team (ABA 1975)
* Basketball HOF Player (2001)

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Karl Malone

Nominate: Dwyane Wade

Rick Barry should start creeping up into this project soon.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Garnett

Nominate Ewing

Same reasons as last thread. KG > Malone and West > Oscar for me. KG vs West is extremely close but KG was healthier and gets the benefit of the doubt for time period.

I nominated Wade last time but am changing my mind (I practically did in that thread but since Ewing wasn't a contender let it slide). Wade's peak is obviously higher but I've decided the longevity gap is too big to put him over Ewing, who had 12 straight 20ppg and great d seasons to start his career, then some more decent seasons on top of that to end it.

[Baller 24]

I'm going to wait on the vote. I'm leaning towards K. Malone. As for the nomination, ronnymac's right, Rick Barry deserves some mention soon too, I've got D-Wade ahead though. Three consecutive seasons as being arguably the best SG in the entire league, and nonetheless all three very elite seasons. Almost elite as a defender, dominant play-off/finals performer, and you put that dominant & historic '06 run and you can very easily see arguments for him in this range.

Nominate: D-Wade

[JordansBulls]

This is Moses Malone for me. The other guys ahead of him that have 3+ MVP's are already taken. Not to mention was on one of the greatest teams ever in the 1983 Sixers and won Finals MVP and was 1st in WS Per 48 minutes in the season and playoffs, 1st in Win Shares in the season and playoffs and 1st in PER in the season and playoffs.

Vote: Moses Malone
Nominate: Clyde Drexler

[penbeast0]

//hi, just checked in, good fight on last thread. Voting Jerry West again -- his regular season accolades aren't quite as spectacular but his postseasons were.

Nominations:
At C, Gilmore is better than Ewing even with era differential accounted for. He wasn't quite the scorer and didn't have the offensive versatility but he was basically Shaq with an introvert's personality, able to get low and score on anyone at truly ridiculous efficient -- the best of all time in fact. Add to that terrific defense and very good rebounding and you have a wonderful player, although Doc was the face of the ABA most GMs at the time of the merger thought Gilmore was the more valuable commodity and Chicago wouldn't pass the merger if Kentucky was included for just that reason.

At F, it's either Pippen or Baylor. Pippen gets the versatility and defense vote, Baylor the dominance although his efficiency wasn't as good as Pettit. Still, Baylor was in the Rick Barry range for efficiency and blows Barry away on rebounding and class; played great ball even while communting from military service and took the Lakers to the finals with West over and over again though he couldn't get past Russell. On the flip side, the Lakers didn't seem to miss him when he retired and was replaced by Jim McMillen -- Wilt gave them enough rebounding, West and Goodrich enough scoring. I love Pippen too, 6 rings don't just happen without a team around Jordan and Pippen and the Zen Master were the other constants. He was very good, not great, as a #1 but he was the greatest #2 ever. All the tools, but, like Gilmore, not the lead dog personality which is his only weakness.

At G, Frazier is easily the best PG left with 2 rings (like Isiah) but the best scorer of the contenders and (with Payton) the best defender to ever play the 1. Wade (peak) or Drexler (career arc) are the best 2 guards but neither really dominates Frazier's game offensively, matches him defensively, and Frazier has longevity on Wade and finals play on Drexler. Clyde was the 5th greatest guard to ever play and belongs in the conversation just after West and Oscar.

My nomination -- Walt Frazier (though I could easily be persuaded to Gilmore or possibly even Baylor with a good argument that addresses the questions I have about him).

Vote: West
Nomination: Frazier

[Fencer reregistered]

This is where we begin to see the virtue of nominating one guy at a time per position. A few others may get in ahead of Garnett and Malone because the PF vote is split between those two.

[therealbig3]

Dr. J was a great choice, it was almost a toss-up for me between him and Garnett.

I'll be sticking with my vote and nomination from last time.

Vote: Kevin Garnett
Nomination: Dwyane Wade

[Rupert Murdoch]

Vote: Oscar Robertson
Nominate: Walt Frazier

[NO-KG-AI]

This is where we begin to see the virtue of nominating one guy at a time per position. A few others may get in ahead of Garnett and Malone because the PF vote is split between those two.

I don't think people are really just voting for them because they are PF's though, ya know? I don't think position is really a factor, especially since KG and Malone are so radically different as players, and Malone's value to a team would be more like the offensive force's like West than it is like KG.

I think the next few votes are going to be about style preferences to be honest.

[lorak]

Question to everybody: why Karl or KG before Moses?

And what about 1981 series between Rockets and Lakers - - it seems that Moses stopped KAJ at the end of his prime (in 1981 he still was 3rd in MVP, 1st team All NBA and 1st All D), because Jabbar had only 51.7 TS% against Rockets (61.6 in regular season). Sure, he still scored a lot, but he was very ineffective against Moses.

BTW, at the end of G1, when Lakers were down 2 pts, Bill Willoughby (6-8 center) blocked KAJ's sky hook!

[fatal9]

Question to everybody: why Karl or KG before Moses?

And what about 1981 series between Rockets and Lakers - - it seems that Moses stopped KAJ at the end of his prime (in 1981 he still was 3rd in MVP, 1st team All NBA and 1st All D), because Jabbar had only 51.7 TS% against Rockets (61.6 in regular season). Sure, he still scored a lot, but he was very ineffective against Moses.

BTW, at the end of G1, when Lakers were down 2 pts, Bill Willoughby (6-8 center) blocked KAJ's sky hook!

They didn't guard each other much in that series. In Moses' best game/half (game 1, first half), he was guarded by Jim Chones. In game 2 which I have seen, KAJ was guarded mainly by a combination of Willoughby and Billy Paultz. Again Moses was mainly guarded by Chones and he abused him. KAJ was on him for a bit but it was clear Moses was a bit too powerful and active for KAJ to contain.

Moses had 38/23 in the first game (on 15/34 shooting), 23 of which were in first half with Chones guarding him. KAJ had 21/15/7 on 9/19 shooting. In game 2, which I have seen, KAJ kind of put away the game early, had 27/17 on 10/22 shooting though Moses came on late with 33/15 himself on 15/19 shooting. Lakers were up double digits and as high as 20, and IIRC Moses's stats came kind of after the fact but him and the Rockets did cut the lead enough to make it a game at the end.

Game 3, KAJ had 32/18/4 on 11/24 shooting. Moses had 23/10 on 8/21 shooting. Moses didn't score in the fourth except for two last second FTs. Magic kind of screwed up that series in this game, shot 2/12 from the field, 6/11 from FT (missed crucial ones down the stretch) and airballed the game winning shot on a play designed for KAJ.

I don't know all in all if Moses really even outplayed him in that one. But even then a three game series which came down to the final shot, it's just not the same credit I give for a 7 game series. And it seems like KAJ outplayed him heavily with the series on the line in game 3.


edit: but yes, I'm generally critical of Moses. The seasons from before he joined the Sixers don't impress me much because a) team records weren't that great (feel like talent was there), b) the defensive ratings of his teams were absolutely dreadful (like close to last place bad). I don't know if it was the style the team played (because they were quite high offensively) but they did have decent defensive players like Paultz, Reid and decent athletes, so that and his poor shot blocking numbers speak to his inability to anchor defenses (this is pretty important for great centers). I'm also critical of his post game being as easy to build around as other great centers because he lacks the passing skills and ability to read defenses/doubles (forced a lot of shots). For that reason I really see him working on a talented team with players who individually can get theres (unlike say Shaq, Hakeem, D-Rob who you can surround with role players/shooters and do quite well). When he did win a championship he joined a team that was 58-24 before he arrived, had been to finals two of the previous three years and he replaced Caldwell Jones. Then the years afterwards the Sixers had an embarrassing first round exit to the Nets in '84 and Moses seems to have generally performed poorly in the playoffs after that (ie. playoff career after 27 is basically irrelevant).

[Wavy Q]

Vote: Jerry West

Nominate: Dwyane Wade

[shawngoat23]

My vote will be for Jerry West. Moses Malone would have been next.

Not sure who my nomination will be for. I said John Havlicek last thread, but I really didn't feel good about it. There are seriously like a dozen names I might consider here.

[lorak]

Thx for the info fatal. I see that I have G2 in my collection, so I'll watch it later today.

BTW, here's video of Willoughby's block on KAJ's skyhook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r09WtKVwaMU

[Fencer reregistered]

This is where we begin to see the virtue of nominating one guy at a time per position. A few others may get in ahead of Garnett and Malone because the PF vote is split between those two.

I don't think people are really just voting for them because they are PF's though, ya know? I don't think position is really a factor, especially since KG and Malone are so radically different as players, and Malone's value to a team would be more like the offensive force's like West than it is like KG.

I think the next few votes are going to be about style preferences to be honest.

You make some good points. Still, I haven't seen any Malone vs. West comparisons that I can recall.

[Laimbeer]

I'd like to see West or Oscar for the next spot on the list. They were pretty dominant at their positions for some time. Moses could be considered. LeBron's body of work is just too short for me.

Nomination, I'd still like to see Zeke, Baylor, Cousy or Hondo get some mentions. Barry is not unreasonable at this point. Let's see who gets traction and I want to read the discussions. I'd prioritize them right now

Isiah/Baylor/Havlicek
Barry/Cousy


Those guys are all reasonably close.

[mysticbb]

Well, my vote would be the same as last time:

Vote: Karl Malone


Nomination so far: Elgin Baylor

Possible others for nomination not named yet: Steve Nash and Jason Kidd? What speaks against them?

[FJS]

Vote: Karl Malone
Nomination: I have to think a little more.

[Laimbeer]

Top rated players from RealGM 2008 needing nomination

14 John Havlicek
19 Walt Frazier
21 Elgin Baylor
24 Rick Barry
25 Isiah Thomas
26 Scottie Pippen
27 John Stockton
28 Patrick Ewing
29 Bob Cousy
30 Clyde Drexler