Wilt vs Shaq

[LascelleL]

he is too mentally weak to stand up to Shaq

What's sad is that numerous fans honestly believe this crap.

Kind of hard to argue that Wilt was mentally weak...when in the Top 10 all time list he's the only player who regularly during his prime saw his numbers DIP

[ThaRegul8r]

Okay. The thing I have the problem with is something you touched on in your post. You penalize Shaq for his lack of rebounding. But let's look at the numbers: Shaq over his 19 year career averaged 10.9 rpg. Let's look at some others:

Rodman- 13.1
Howard- 12.9
Ben Wallace- 11.8
Duncan- 11.4
KAJ- 11.2
Akeem- 11.1
Drob- 10.6

So you have 3 rebounding specialists (2 of which had ZERO offensive responsibilities), and yet, the biggest gap between them and Shaq is 2.20 rpg. So even the best rebounder out of all of these HOFers, a man who was responsible for ONLY rebounding and defending pulled down a whopping 2 more rebounds per game than Shaq. So let me ask you this- was Rodman's 2 additional rebounds more important than the 17.3 point per game gap in their scoring? Do you think that if Rodman had to score even just 10 more points per game than he did, his rebounding would remain the same? Do you see what I'm getting at? Kareem- he and Shaq averaged the exact same number of ppg and KAJ pulled down a huge .3 of 1 rebound more than Shaq. Yet, he's never criticized for it.

With all due respect, if you don't think Kareem was ever criticized for his rebounding, then, quite frankly, you don't know much about the history of the game.

[turk3d]

Anyone who is over 7 feet should be able to rebound, and Kareem although not the greatest rebounder was pretty decent at it which is reflected in his numbers. Shaq (who's biggest attribute was that he was so dominant), was NOT a dominant rebounder, plain and simple except on occasions where he wanted to. It's on him that he chose not to do it as often as he could have.

[34Dayz]

I think rebounding takes a certain skill, you either have it or you dont.

Sure size and athleticism matters but that's probably only 30-50% of the equation. Kevin Love is a better rebounder then Dwight/Duncan/Oneal even though he's half the athlete and much smaller. I am pretty content if my bigman is giving me 11+ board tbh.

Could he have gotten more boards if he tried harder.. maybe but its hard for me to be discontent with an offensive force like Shaq who is also one of the better defensive anchors. Shaqs teams usually had a big edge on opponents when it came to Rebounding.

[doctorfunk]

How getting 10.4 to 13.9 boards in first 12 season is not dominating on boards lmao
what is?

[34Dayz]

Yes.. and he was one of the best offensive rebounders in the game especially in his Young and Prime years.

[MacGill]

Wow this thread has gone all over the place with comparisions etc...

Look, there is some really good information on all the said centers mentioned in the RPOY & ATL 100 threads in the PC thread near the top. Lots of interesting breakdowns, stats, but most of all, insight of many players that many may not have known about, myself included.

In my opinion, you really can't compare Shaq to Russell, KAJ or D-Rob like you can with Wilt or Hakeem. Shaq was a two way power center if you will, regardless of how others perceive how dominant or efficient he was at both ends of the court. He wasn't a sniper player (specialist) or did we count on him being there if he was really needed, as in increasing his production on certain ends of the floor where you say it was a breakout game or not his normal trend, he was already always there and you always knew what he was going to bring ( power balanced production) and scarier was he even could increase that balanced production on his two way game.

Regardless of rebounding rates, blocks etc, it is pretty clear that as an overall power center, I feel like we have to start a (SuperHeavyweight Class) only one player in the history of the game challenges him and that is Wilt. And from what we have watched in his career, Hakeem was the only Heavyweight who could step into the SuperHeavyweight ring and not look out of place as a comparable two-way center.

We need to use a bit of reality here ( size, strength, skill of player) and stop with the well, look what he did in his era against lesser players to who we are comparing against etc. If going off what we know from styles of play I believe KAJ to be the worst match-up in trying to stop Shaq. He just didn't have the strength needed on the defensive end regardless of him scoring on the offensive end against Shaq. Kevin McHale had little trouble backing down KAJ and scoring and now we are talking about Shaq. We have already mentioned how he goes at people, and it's wasn't the way Wilt did.

Look, every great center could score on each other and defend each other but the interesting fact is that in the history of the entire nba, it only produced two true SuperHeavyweights worthy of being called just that. And only one true heavyweight (Hakeem) who could venture into that ring. Everyone could still be effective to a degree but when you combine superior size with equal or better overall talent, something has to give and it's normally the lesser/disadvantaged opponent. Basketball isn't fighting but why do you think MMA or boxing have weight classes? To make things competitive and prevent more lop-sided mismatches. The nba doesn't have such rules and with it being a team game it gives better chances of winning against these individual monsters. If the nba was one-on-one versus strictly position I'm not taking the crafty, long, but leaner weaker center when I have a bigger equally talent one. This isn't a Rocky movie where Rocky takes three rounds of Clubber's punches to tire him out and then go for the knock-out.

I am also not banking on a rebound or block advantage when I know that in said head to head match-ups those numbers or going to get skewed. Shaq wouldn't need to be as defensively sound as Russell because his size would instantly close that gap. So even at the said lesser boards or blocks, the match-up instantly says 'reset to the stats' and you would see more 'civilized numbers' since each of them are more equal then everyone else.

I look at everything in these comparisions as, take all the said players, put them on exactly the same teams, same clutch, same efficency but only switch the centers. Example, put both Shaq and Hakeem on the winning 95 Rockets team and discuss styles of play and could Shaq replicate what was done or not. Otherwise, you are comparing what they did in their time versus the competition they faced and the exact teams as it truly happened in history. Which is why it is fun with the Wilt & Shaq swap. To me, putting Shaq on all of Wilt's team, rewrites history all over again because of Shaq's style of play versus Wilt's. Rebounds could be less, blocks less, but in a more offensive flowing game where he gets more touches, those lesser boards, blocks, wouldn't be the difference maker, as the higher rates in these categories didn't allow Wilt to win more.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

How is 3rd year Shaq "on par" with peak Hakeem?

Maybe you Shaq homers should also factor in the ardous road Hakeem had to face just to meet Shaq that year. 5 elimination games, 3 of them on the road and he averaged 33ppg and 11rpg 55% shooting with his back against the wall in all those contests. Down 2-1 and 3-1 in consecutive series.

No margin for any mediocre Game 7 letdown like "prime Shaq" at home vs. Portland, not even mentioning his mediocre game 6 before. No room for sitting on the pine fouled out while Kobe wins a pivotal Game 4 on the road. No room for conditioning woes and inability to close out games like Shaq in the 2002 WCF playoffs. And no room for being the benefactor of some crooked ref.

If I were Hakeem matched with a so-called peak Shaq, I'd be more worried about Kobe going off and Shaq deferring than I would be worried about being dominated h2h by Shaq.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I look at everything in these comparisions as, take all the said players, put them on exactly the same teams, same clutch, same efficency but only switch the centers. Example, put both Shaq and Hakeem on the winning 95 Rockets team and discuss styles of play and could Shaq replicate what was done or not.

Shaq either the 3 yr version or so-called prime Shaq had zero chance of leading the 95 Rockets to a title, not even mentioning 94 which would also be zero. Hakeem's margin for error those two years required him to be nothing short of flawless at both ends of the floor for them to win back 2 back titles, which peak or 3 year Shaq surely wasn't.

[MacGill]

I look at everything in these comparisions as, take all the said players, put them on exactly the same teams, same clutch, same efficency but only switch the centers. Example, put both Shaq and Hakeem on the winning 95 Rockets team and discuss styles of play and could Shaq replicate what was done or not.

Shaq either the 3 yr version or so-called prime Shaq had zero chance of leading the 95 Rockets to a title, not even mentioning 94 which would also be zero. Hakeem's margin for error those two years required him to be nothing short of flawless at both ends of the floor for them to win back 2 back titles, which peak or 3 year Shaq surely wasn't.

Did you not see the 'EXAMPLE' I placed before the statement? I respect Hakeem way too much to even respond to this. It was just the easiest, most used debate that I normally see in these threads and I have already read your for arguments for him. His two year run was very impressive indeed and so was his overall career but I still take Shaq over all past great centers but also give credit where credit is surely do, even if 95 happened all over again.

[doctorfunk]

If I were Hakeem matched with a so-called peak Shaq, I'd be more worried about Kobe going off and Shaq deferring than I would be worried about being dominated h2h by Shaq.

That's really stupid thing to say, after Shaq dropped 29-13 at 59% FG on that Houston team. If anything he would score more if he was at his prime. Nobody on that Rockets team did any good on Shaq. Kobe had some good series/games but it was Shaq's team no doubt about it.

Despite what Shaq said, he played on par with Hakeem. It's true Hakeem had slightly better series and Rockets won but Shaq despite being only 22 played on the same level as prime Hakeem. Anyway I consider Hakeem and Shaq two best centers ever. I would take either of them instead of Wilt or anyone else. They were just better than anyone before or after them. This is based solely on my observation of their skill not stats or accolades.

[34Dayz]

LOL @ FushengTheShaqHater

Why do you think Kobe was able to go off against Portland and the Spurs? Do you think the fact that both teams were holding team meetings around the Diesel might have made it a bit easier for Kobe to have those explosive games?

And lets just convenietly forget how Dominant he was over the entirety of those series because only the small handful of games over that 3 year span where Oneal played bad should be used to represent him.

Lets also forget that in that game 7 vs Portland it was Shaq who scored 9 pts in the 4th after being held in check for most of the game.

Your a joke..

[nolunch]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v53lwRhU4fs&NR=1[/youtube]

[turk3d]

I think the Admiral was actually intimidated by Shaq. It wasn't until Duncan came on the scene that the pressure on him was relieved. It was the Spurs Twin Towers which put them on the map as far as being able to compete with Shaq wherever he went.

Not taking anything away from Robinson (who was a great player in himself) but he simply (by himself) was no match for the Diesel. A big mistake imo to try and say he was. Now Hakeem & Wilt OTOH are totally different stories and since Wilt was from a completely different era, that complicates things even more when trying to do an honest and objective comparison.

[nolunch]

Shaq averaged 20+pts and 10+rebs in 13 consecutive seasons.

[pancakes3]

Shaq played 19 seasons to Wilt's 14 and but in terms of total minutes, Shaq trails Wilt by about 6000 minutes (roughly 2 full seasons @ 36mpg worth of minutes).

[jaypo]

If I were Hakeem matched with a so-called peak Shaq, I'd be more worried about Kobe going off and Shaq deferring than I would be worried about being dominated h2h by Shaq.

Well, why were you never an NBA coach then if you're so sure about that? You must be smarter than the likes of Greg Popovich, Rick Adleman, and Mike Dunleavy. Because they were so worried about Shaq that they recruited big bodies just to have enough to finish the game. They didn't gameplan to stop Kobe. They gameplanned to try to slow down Shaq. And they had to change their gameplans on BOTH ENDS of the floor. Why would they have to do that if he was so bad defensively?

I'm guessing that if you were the head coach of any opposing team between 00-04, you would employ your strategy of stopping Kobe and single covering Shaq, and it would result in a few more sweeps! Then, Shaq's status as GOAT would be undeniable. He'd be the only player in history to average 50 ppg for the playoffs 3 years in a row!!

[FuShengTHEGreat]

LOL @ FushengTheShaqHater

Why do you think Kobe was able to go off against Portland and the Spurs? Do you think the fact that both teams were holding team meetings around the Diesel might have made it a bit easier for Kobe to have those explosive games?

And lets just convenietly forget how Dominant he was over the entirety of those series because only the small handful of games over that 3 year span where Oneal played bad should be used to represent him.

Lets also forget that in that game 7 vs Portland it was Shaq who scored 9 pts in the 4th after being held in check for most of the game.

Your a joke..

I think Kobe has proved over the course of his career that he isn't the type of talent that suddenly improves as a result of Shaq creating space for him. Kobe driving and dishing created a lot of easy baskets for Shaq as well. The Spurs guarded Shaq with DRob and they'd occaisionally send TD over for help, it's not as if they sent their whole squad on Shaq. For a MDE just admit Shaq was a bust in Game 7 at home. Couldn't even out-do Kobe in stats a big man should dominate in such as rebounds and blocks.

For someone that's supposedly "MDE" on the basis of '99-02 play, he should justify being held to a higher standard...especially considering a guy he was superior to in Hakeem had ZERO let down in the playoffs over a 3 year span from 92-95. Never once during that that span he needed to defer to anyone, was never carried by anyone with his season on the line. No FT woes, not getting beat out by a 35 yr. old Dikembe on a all-D NBA team, never had a problem closing out games.

Even if Shaq supposedly improved from getting swept in '95, his short comings show he was still an inferior Center to Hakeem in his prime who played near flawlessly.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Well, why were you never an NBA coach then if you're so sure about that? You must be smarter than the likes of Greg Popovich, Rick Adleman, and Mike Dunleavy. Because they were so worried about Shaq that they recruited big bodies just to have enough to finish the game. They didn't gameplan to stop Kobe. They gameplanned to try to slow down Shaq. And they had to change their gameplans on BOTH ENDS of the floor. Why would they have to do that if he was so bad defensively?

I'm guessing that if you were the head coach of any opposing team between 00-04, you would employ your strategy of stopping Kobe and single covering Shaq, and it would result in a few more sweeps! Then, Shaq's status as GOAT would be undeniable. He'd be the only player in history to average 50 ppg for the playoffs 3 years in a row!!

Where are these "big bodies" the Spurs recruited? 6'7" Malik Rose? As for the Blazers, they had to employ a lot of "big bodies" like a near dead Sabonis, a coke fiend Kemp and a aging Dale Davis because these guys were all old and past it.

Shaq scared none of the elite big men led teams in the 90s, even a softie like DRob talked smack to him in the media and backed it up whenever they met before his injuries. None! After the leftovers that never made a difference in that era were on crutches that's when Shaq took over and installed his fear factor.

Shaq would avg 50ppg 3 years straight?......

[34Dayz]

Lol nice Dodge Fushegi.

You couldnt refute any of my points so you just go back to spewing hate towards the player that is completely unrelated to what we were discussing or what I wrote/spoke of in my quote.

Fusheng : Oneal was bad at FT's, Hakeem was better because his team won.

Your blinded by hate but the fact is despite his flaws which every player has he still became the GOAT Center and a very strong argument can be made that by his 3rd Season he was already on par with Peak Hakeem.

Anyone who analyzes that 95 series fairly will see Shaq played on par if not better then Hakeem and the reason Oneal lost or better to say the reason why he got swept was because while Hakeem/Shaq and Penny/Drexler basically canceled eachother out the rest of the Rockets supporting cast stepped up and played well while the rest of Shaqs played terribly and chocked under pressure.

If you weren't so blatantly biased against Oneal you would understand this. And its not like Shaq chocked he averaged almost 12PPG in the 4th quarters in that Final series the most in the last 20 years, 2nd place is him again in 2000 and then Jordan in third place. So VS the greatest defensive C of all time he was throwing down almost 30PPG on 60% shooting and averaging 1/3rd of those points in the 4th Quarter... yea but I guess he should of averaged 40/20 with 20 in the 4th.. he was just not good enough.

Wow.. just reading your last post.. your such a Troll.