Lockout

Little Digger · Post #481 » by **Little Digger** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:29 am

How much of that 3.5 billion in revenue did Andris Biedrins and Charlie Bell generate?

Post #482 » by **floppymoose** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:21 am

Joe Hollywood wrote:How much of that 3.5 billion in revenue did Andris Biedrins and Charlie Bell generate?

So because there were bums, we should reduce the overall slice of the pie that the players get collectively?

I know a doctor who cut off the wrong leg. So they should all take a 50% pay cut.

Little Digger · Post #483 » by **Little Digger** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:33 am

floppymoose wrote:
Joe Hollywood wrote:How much of that 3.5 billion in revenue did Andris Biedrins and Charlie Bell generate?

So because there were bums, we should reduce the overall slice of the pie that the players get collectively?

I don't give a crap how much of the pie the players eat. As a basketball purist, I just want to see the end to guaranteed contracts.

BTW ..Throwing out the 3.5 billion number as player generated seems extremely flawed to me.

Post #484 » by **floppymoose** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:42 am

On unguaranteed contracts... Once the players and the owners agree to a way to divide the money, I think it's not so easy to make sure they get that much, but to also have unguaranteed contracts.

All the things the owners are pushing: hard cap, unguaranteed contracts, etc, all look like code to me for "reduced share of the pie".

If they can sort out a way to do it without shafting the players, I'm not totally opposed to unguaranteed contracts.

turk3d · Post #485 » by **turk3d** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:10 am

floppymoose wrote:On unguaranteed contracts... Once the players and the owners agree to a way to divide the money, I think it's not so easy to make sure they get that much, but to also have unguaranteed contracts.

All the things the owners are pushing: hard cap, unguaranteed contracts, etc, all look like code to me for "reduced share of the pie".

If they can sort out a way to do it without shafting the players, I'm not totally opposed to unguaranteed contracts.

+ 1. What happens (under the current rules) when teams go over the cap intentionally (pay lux tax)? Can this potentially bring the total salaries over the established BRI? And by the same token, what if enough teams were to pay minimal salaries (stay way under the cap) could that drop down the potential players share? Anyone know the answer to this? It seems that the numbers can changed depending on what a team spends.

One approach might be to take the difference (if under) and add it to player pensions.

Here's Fisher's letter to the player for those who're interested (I've boldfaced a few paragraphs which I found interesting):

To Each & Every Player,

After the latest round of meetings, I thought it would be best to update you personally as to where the leadership of the National Basketball Players Association stands, where the negotiations stand where we are headed and the reasons why.

Without a doubt, someone will be leaking this. I know it. The moment you read this you will know it. So, I say all with the fullest transparency.

I was elected as your President. By you. For you. I take great pride and am honored to serve the over 400 members of our association. I and our Executive Committee take this job and this role seriously and will not agree to an unfair deal on behalf of you and our players. Period.

I’m not looking out just for the marquee guy, I’m looking out for the guy that dreams of being a professional basketball player and gets a minimum deal. I’m not just trying to protect the guy on a team in a huge market. I’m protecting the player that is in a small market with incredibly loyal fans.

I’ve made it clear, I want to play. You have each made it clear, you want to play. The fans have been unwavering, they want their basketball. The thousand of employees that work in the arenas, the ticket offices, the concession stands, they want a season. We all want to go back to work.

The league and the team owners have locked us out. This was not our choice. Our employers decided to stop allowing us to do our jobs.

My job since July 1st is to find a solution. To find an outcome that protects each of you and your livelihoods and continues to allow us to play the game we love so much and the fans love supporting.

Since before the lockout began, I have spent hours upon hours, days, months, years, working on preparing you, the fans and the media about the possibilities. Now as the lockout has set in, reality of the situation is here.

The most recent meetings in New York were effective. What you have been told by your agents, representatives and the media is probably speculative and inaccurate.

What actually happened in those meetings was discussion, brainstorming and a sharing of options by both sides. The turning point this past Tuesday was not a disagreement between the players and the owners. It was actually a fundamental divide between the owners internally. They could not agree with each other on specific points of the deal and therefore it caused conflict within the league and its owners.

So it is our hope that today, Thursday, at the owners meeting in Dallas that they work out their differences, come up with a revenue sharing plan that will protect their teams and are then ready to come together and sign off on the agreement we as a smaller group deemed reasonable.

Decertification seems to be a hot button issue today in the media. So I’d like to address it. I’ve read yesterday’s stories and find the position of these agents interesting. I have made myself available to each and every agent. But not once have I heard from them. If they are so concerned about the direction of the union, then why have they not contacted me? Each and every one of them mentioned has been in meetings with me. I’ve answered their questions, I’ve been told they support you, their players and our Players Association. So if there is a genuine concern, a suggestion, a question, call me. Email me. Text me. I’m working tirelessly each and every day on behalf of the over 400 players that they represent. Working for nothing but the best interests of THEIR guys. I don’t make a commission, I don’t make a salary for serving as President. I have NO ulterior motives. None.

It is because they have not come to me once that I question their motives.

I work every day on these negotiations. I work so that each player from Blake Griffin to Tyler Hansbrough, Pau Gasol to De’Andre Jordan, Dwight Howard to Jrue Holiday, Taj Gibson to Danny Granger, Steve Nash to Luke Babbit and every single player get a fair and reasonable deal. Not just for this year, not just for next year but for years to come. So that the league that WE the players largely helped build, continues to grow and thrive.

So to address the agents that have decided to say their piece yesterday, I don’t mind. Perhaps they are trying to make news. Perhaps they just want to show you, their clients, they are working hard. But what would be appreciated by the 400+ players would be the support of our agents and constructive ideas, suggestions and solutions that are in our best interests. Not the push for a drastic move that leaves their players without a union, without pensions, without health care. We just aren’t there.

I will remain committed to finding resolution to this because I know how important this is. I ask you to remain united with me and your over 400 allies, friends, brothers and colleagues. We are a powerful group if we remain united and focused on the task at hand.

I urge every single one of you to call me, text me, email me with anything. An idea, a suggestion, a concern, a question. I represent you. I work for you.

So to each player, each fan, each agent, each media member who ends up reading this…I stand behind this message. It comes from me, a 15 year veteran of basketball, the game I dreamt of playing as a kid, the game I love so much. I’m a teammate, I’m a father, I’m a son, I’m a husband, I’m a brother, but right now, the role I must work so hard to honor is the one as PA President. And I ask each of you to stand with me, stand by me and urge the league and the owners to come together and allow the game of basketball to continue to grow and thrive. We’re ready.

Sincerely,
Derek

Little Digger · Post #486 » by **Little Digger** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:32 pm

I'd guess the current range for the % of the pie the players will recieve in the next CBA is between 48 and 52 %..Why in the world do you two care so much how much money is left for Antawn Jamison's great great great grandchildren? Let the little brats find their own way in life.

Amazing thread.

Post #487 » by **Sleepy51** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:34 pm

Why do others care how much is left for cohan's grandchildren?

turk3d · Post #488 » by **turk3d** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:40 pm

Sleepy51 wrote:Why do others care how much is left for cohan's grandchildren?

Who knows Sleepy? Maybe we have a few of his relatives lurking around here. :lol:

Post #489 » by **Sleepy51** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:37 pm

turk3d wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:Why do others care how much is left for cohan's grandchildren?

Who knows Sleepy? Maybe we have a few of his relatives lurking around here.

I don't really think anyone cares about Cohan's grandkids. I was just pointing out that if were going to start assigning absurd strawmen positions to one another, there's plenty of ridicule to go around. This has been a good thread becayse the debate has stayed largely within the confines of civility and those who don't find the details and minutia of the conflict of interest have largely respected the fact that others are having a mutually respectful adult discussion. I hope that can be allowed to continue without the peripheral irrelevant poo throwing.

Twinkie defense · Post #490 » by **Twinkie defense** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:03 am

floppymoose wrote:
Souvlaki wrote:It'd be better for the economy if they don't play the season. So I'm all for a hardline on guaranteed contracts. The players are overpaid anyway.

Yeah, the players generate $3.5 billion in revenues, so clearly they don't deserve much.

Teams generate money too... remember you're rooting for laundry. That "Knicks" on the chest is good for something.

Post #491 » by **floppymoose** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:05 am

I believe that if all the nba players were replaced by average joe's playing basketball, league revenue would go from $3.5 billion to $3.5.

Twinkie defense · Post #492 » by **Twinkie defense** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:41 am

And yet no one wants to watch them play in Vegas...

BROWN · Post #493 » by **BROWN** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:48 am

There's no business men out there who can replace these talented players, but you sure can replace the business men with new ones.

Players should stand pat, if these owners don't want to settle for something 'fair' then find new guys who'd love to invest. I'm sure there's a bunch of rich guys that'd love to own their own ball team.

Little Digger · Post #494 » by **Little Digger** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:28 pm

BROWN wrote:There's no business men out there who can replace these talented players, but you sure can replace the business men with new ones.

.

and where exactly are these new owners going to host these games at? The Cow Palace? Target parking lots?

Post #495 » by **Sleepy51** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:08 pm

Joe Hollywood wrote:
BROWN wrote:There's no business men out there who can replace these talented players, but you sure can replace the business men with new ones.

.
and where exactly are these new owners going to host these games at? The Cow Palace? Target parking lots?

If Joe Lacob changed his mind about owning the Warriors and was replaced by some other business man the Warriors would continue to play games at Oracle without missing a beat. Oracle is owned by the City of Oakland. The city leased to Chris Cohan and they now lease to Joe Lacob. The city will be happy to lease to the next business man, just like they were happy to lease to the last one.

The majority of NBA franchises are similarly tenants under public or private arena ownership by independent parties. Of the 30 teams and 29 NBA arenas, only 9 are privately owned by their teams . . . one of which is the Kings, who are leaving Sac unless they get a public arena in the next year.

Mylie10 · Post #496 » by **Mylie10** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:52 pm

These players could organize their own league if things were totally broken. The owners could too, but people will want to watch the best.

I doubt it would ever come to that.

This thing just sucks....I hope something can be done soon.

Souvlaki · Post #497 » by **Souvlaki** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:15 pm

floppymoose wrote:
Souvlaki wrote:It'd be better for the economy if they don't play the season. So I'm all for a hardline on guaranteed contracts. The players are overpaid anyway.

Yeah, the players generate $3.5 billion in revenues, so clearly they don't deserve much.

The players are employees. Employees can be replaced. You are naive to think it's all the players who've generated that revenue. The NBA as a corporate entity is one of the worlds largest and most effective hype machines. The "star players" that some seem to think are irreplaceable are churned over every 5-10 years or so. Players come and go, the league endures.

The players haven't taken a huge risk and invested hundreds of millions of their own money in the business that can and very often does lose money. There just is no comparison between the two entities. I mean, if it's really all about the players, why don't they just go start their own league and keep all the big money for themselves? Because they simply can't.

BROWN · Post #498 » by **BROWN** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:05 pm

These employees, are world class, talented employees, they don't grow off trees. It takes years for them to even be at the stage they are right now, you can't simply pick up a bunch of joe's and have them generate the revenues the NBA creates.

The investment these businessmen make are in their employees, it's their risk I agree, but you can't fault a player for accepting a massive contract if the owner wants that asset.

Get a fair deal done, were the players earn what is right, and have the owners be able to walk away happy with their investment.

What about signing bonuses? Something the players get right away, and then get paid some guaranteed and unguaranteed money like the NFL does.

Post #499 » by **floppymoose** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:41 pm

Souvlaki wrote:The players are employees. Employees can be replaced. You are naive to think it's all the players who've generated that revenue. The NBA as a corporate entity is one of the worlds largest and most effective hype machines. The "star players" that some seem to think are irreplaceable are churned over every 5-10 years or so. Players come and go, the league endures.

We already have leagues where average joes play basketball. They are called rec leagues, and they make a few billion less dollars than the nba.

If all the best basketball talent left the league and started their own, that would spell real trouble for the nba.

Of course players come and go. That has nothing to do with whether or not the strength of the league is on their shoulders. Owners come and go too. In fact, your whole paragraph above makes more sense to me if you replace players/employees with owners. Few fans remember "star owners", but they remember their favorite players. And they don't come to see the owners, they come for the players and the game.

turk3d · Post #500 » by **turk3d** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:50 am

Souvlaki wrote:
floppymoose wrote:
Souvlaki wrote:It'd be better for the economy if they don't play the season. So I'm all for a hardline on guaranteed contracts. The players are overpaid anyway.

Yeah, the players generate $3.5 billion in revenues, so clearly they don't deserve much.

The players are employees. Employees can be replaced. You are naive to think it's all the players who've generated that revenue. The NBA as a corporate entity is one of the worlds largest and most effective hype machines. The "star players" that some seem to think are irreplaceable are churned over every 5-10 years or so. Players come and go, the league endures.

The players haven't taken a huge risk and invested hundreds of millions of their own money in the business that can and very often does lose money. There just is no comparison between the two entities. I mean, if it's really all about the players, why don't they just go start their own league and keep all the big money for themselves? Because they simply can't.

"Employees" can't be replaced that readily all the time, especially if they're high up the food chain and if (in they case, they are the product themselves). They don't call guys "franchise players" for nothing. If you think you can replace your Kobe Bryant or your Kevin Durant or Derek Rose with some guy off the street you're mistaken.

How many people do you think you will fill up your arena with if you put 5 Joe Blows out there? How many hot dogs do you think you well sell (and 7 dollar beers) if you were to lose your players? And what kind of profit are you going to be expecting? Yes those players may only be getting those big contracts for 5-10 years and get turned over but then another set comes in and replaces them.

And that new set is likely another group of stars that people are willing to pay the major coin to come out and watch. How much TV revenue do you think the networks will be willing to pay for a product that doesn't consist of the best basketball players in the world and how many markets would be interested? Might as well not be in the business and do something else.