Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[C_Money]

Who is Sean Deveney?

[dhackett1565]

you inherit a risk and you deserve a return on investment.

I think you need to reread this sentence and understand the paradox. Either you 'deserve' a return on your investment or you are inheriting a risk, not both. The owners don't want any part of any risk whatsoever based on their proposals. They want guaranteed returns with the risks belonging to the players, because whenever the owners spend even more money despite revenues continually rising, the owners will just look to slash their salaries. And I really don't understand the idea of deserving a return on your investment. You don't deserve anything from an investment. Instead, you have the right to be smart about where you invest and wisely manage the investments you make and you have the responsibility to do so in a manner that isn't just lining your pockets at everybody else's expense. Sadly, we've lost track of the whole responsibility aspect of things decades ago.

Well, then part of managing that asset would be making sure you are paying your employees an amount that makes your business model workable. Managing the business well and "lining your pockets at everyone else's expense" are not mutually exclusive.

They don't deserve a return on investment. But they have the right to do whatever they are capable of to guarantee one - including reducing payments to employees. The whole point of an investment is to get a return on it - so you can't complain that the owners want to slash salaries. The question is whether they can, and the answer appears to be yes.

[bboyskinnylegs]

on the one hand, it would have been nice to not have to go through another tanking season in order to secure a high draft pick, but at this point I'm desperate for NBA basketball so I hope this gets worked out so we have a full season.

It seems unlikely that any fundamental changes that were going to help our team compete better were ever a major concern anyways.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

[BLKMASS]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

bull.

[KG1585]

It can happen. Here's how:

Each side already has signaled a willingness to at least discuss 51 percent for the players in some form, based on the league's informal offer of a 49-51 band and the players' informal counter of 51-53. Each percentage point move is worth $300 million, based on a seven-year deal. The numbers are large, but at least the math is neat.

To figure out how much farther each side will go, you have to quantify how much they would lose by canceling the first two weeks of the regular season. For the players, it's $200 million -- $140.6 million for the 301 players under contract, plus an estimated $53.7 million for the 129 free agents, $4.4 million for the 30 first-round picks and $1.2 million for the 30 second-round picks, based on calculations provided by a front office executive.

Tuesday, deputy commissioner Adam Silver estimated the losses associated with canceling the first two weeks of games as being "in the hundreds of millions." We know what the players' loss would be, so let's call it about the same $200 million for the owners. This doesn't count the collateral damage that is difficult to quantify, plus the slippery slope of cancellations leading to more cancellations as each side inevitably hardens its position by trying to recoup those losses. Fighting to get the $200 million back results in losing $200 million more, and before you know it, $4 billion is gone.

So when the sides resume meeting -- possibly as early as Thursday, with a league-imposed Monday deadline to reach a deal before regular-season games are canceled -- each one moves another $200 million. (They'd lose that money anyway by failing to reach a deal.) The bargaining gap is now $500 million over seven years, or about $71 million a year.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15691389/nbpa-owners-can-reach-finish-line-on-new-deal-heres-how

Berger thinks there is deal to be done, but he seems to be in the minority though.

[knickerbocker2k2]

I'm not doing "slave and master crap." I am sarcastically mocking your backing of the owners and alluding the unintended consequences of what would happen if the players just caved because the owners are the owners. If your argument is that the players should cave because they aren't the owners, then they should cave every time. They should give the owners whatever they want all the time. Since the owners have all of those important points you listed.

It is mind boggling people are supporting the owners. It is one thing to say I hope players cave so we have season and we don't miss any games, but totally another to actually think owners are fighting for the league/some good reason other than greed. Using their logic the players should always accept whatever the owners suggest and as long as they are getting paid above minimum wage, they should be happy because they should be lucky to have job given they have no other options.

For the neutral it is easy to see they are playing with accounting to make up these loses. Are they technically losing money? I'm sure if they count the interest/depreciation of the acquisitions costs they could be losing money. However why should the players take on these costs? When the owners resale the franchise, players get nothing out of it. In addition recent owners knew of the system in place when they bought the franchise. If they were too stupid to consider the full consequences of owning a team, they can put their franchise up for sale.

[highness]

I really despise the cocky attitude of some of these players and their agents. And of course I don't understand the sympathy for the "poor" players from some posters on this board.

Do you realize that most of the players if not for the NBA owners business acumen, they would either be in trouble (some are anyway) or at best making a minimum pay?
Their life is a sweet dream than anybody wishes for himself.
Also in this economy when most of US population struggles to make ends meet, they complain for not making enough money
I'm surprised to see any public support for these spoiled brats. Most of them end up poor anyway after blowing them in Vegas, drugs, etc. Easy come, easy go...

That's pretty stereotypical and racist.

[sewerfrosh]

They will settle, the utimate deadline is January or there will be no season, the last strike showed the owners and the players that what is gained by losing almost half the season is not worth what you gave up as neither is in a better position then they were before the last strike. If not done by next Monday both know the season is lost as they will not gain enough by sitting out a partial season.

[7-Day Dray]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

If the NBA does the Draft lottery like the NHL did after their lockout, that's bad for the Raptors.

If the NBA holds a lottery with the same percentages as last year's, then it is goo for the Raptors.

It depends because no one knows yet how the NBA would hold the lottery if there was a full season.

[DG88]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

If the NBA does the Draft lottery like the NHL did after their lockout, that's bad for the Raptors.

If the NBA holds a lottery with the same percentages as last year's, then it is goo for the Raptors.

It depends because no one knows yet how the NBA would hold the lottery if there was a full season.

The NHL did that draft based on the last 3 years of playoff appearances and getting a #1 pick. Raptors haven't been in the playoffs for 3 years and haven't had a #1 pick since 2006. We'd still get a top 5 pick either way.

[7-Day Dray]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

If the NBA does the Draft lottery like the NHL did after their lockout, that's bad for the Raptors.

If the NBA holds a lottery with the same percentages as last year's, then it is goo for the Raptors.

It depends because no one knows yet how the NBA would hold the lottery if there was a full season.

The NHL did that draft based on the last 3 years of playoff appearances and getting a #1 pick. Raptors haven't been in the playoffs for 3 years and haven't had a #1 pick since 2006. We'd still get a top 5 pick either way.

Oh yeah I forgot they didn't make the playoffs in 09-10/ They almost had the 8 seed that year.

[bboyskinnylegs]

I found this tweet mildly amusing:

Met with the NBA owners today, made no progress. We as players are a lot smarter then they think. We are prepared to boycott. #StandProud

[DG88]

I found this tweet mildly amusing:

Met with the NBA owners today, made no progress. We as players are a lot smarter then they think. We are prepared to boycott. #StandProud

[TheDoctor]

They will settle, the utimate deadline is January or there will be no season, the last strike showed the owners and the players that what is gained by losing almost half the season is not worth what you gave up as neither is in a better position then they were before the last strike. If not done by next Monday both know the season is lost as they will not gain enough by sitting out a partial season.

I'm with Berger and Deveney here. I think this gets wrapped up in the nick of time, with much grumbling. Most for public consumption, to try to save a little face.

The owners have conceded a lot more than I expected by this point. It really shows they're willing to make a deal. More than I expected - I thought they'd bleed the players and we'd get a 60 game season again... but now I think they'll go very slightly further on the %, and call it a day. The players aren't going to get a better deal by waiting any further than the weekend - and if they wait it will cost them a lot in legal, in hit to the league's image and overall profitability this year which they get a % of, lost salaries, and power to the agents.

The rank and file should take the loss of hard cap and remaining MLE/LLE, etc and run. The inflationary power of the MLE is more important to the majority of NBA players than the BRI is.

Its actually funny. The lowered BRI impacts contracts in proportion to their size. So the big guys lose the most, and the sub-MLE guys really don't lose that much. But the grandfathered current contracts mean that the current stars are protected. So who is really getting screwed? The pre-extension superstars in the making would be giving up the most. That's a pretty small constituency.

Yes, the agents get screwed because it hits all their contracts - but the super 7 troublemakers get screwed the most by the BRI going down because they have most of the market of major contract players. Boo hoo.

I think it makes sense for a deal to get done.

[C_Money]

Its gonna be so funny to see those agents get whats coming to them. I bet they can't stand all this right now.

[dhackett1565]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

If the NBA does the Draft lottery like the NHL did after their lockout, that's bad for the Raptors.

If the NBA holds a lottery with the same percentages as last year's, then it is goo for the Raptors.

It depends because no one knows yet how the NBA would hold the lottery if there was a full season.

The NHL did that draft based on the last 3 years of playoff appearances and getting a #1 pick. Raptors haven't been in the playoffs for 3 years and haven't had a #1 pick since 2006. We'd still get a top 5 pick either way.

Yeah, except that is not at all true. If they go with the NHL system, the Raps would end up with 3 ping pong balls, along with 4 other teams, out of a total of 50 ping pong balls given out. Ten teams would have 2 balls, and the other 15 would have 1. That leaves them with a 6% chance at the top pick. But it in no way guaranteed them a top 5 pick. In all likelihood, they would slip to 9th or later in that system.

Think of it this way: there's an 94% chance that the Raps don't get the 1st pick. Assuming the other picks go by order of likelihood (outside the Raps), there's then a 93% chance they don't get the 2nd pick. 93% for the 3rd pick. 92% for the 4th pick. 92% for the 5th pick. 91% for the 6th pick. 91%. 90%. 90%. 89%. 88%. 87%. 86%. 85%. 84%. Etc.

So their aggregate chance of winning a pick goes as follows (roughly):
1st pick: 6%
Top 2: 13%
Top 3: 19%
Top 4: 25%
Top 5: 31%
Top 6: 37%
Top 7: 43%
Top 8: 48%
Top 9: 53%

So you can see, the 50% threshold is at about pick 8.5. So they are just as likely to get a bottom 12 pick as they are to get a top 8 pick. Not so good. The Raps need this season to be played unless the NBA decides to simply redo the lottery with the same positions as last year.

[whoknows]

I really despise the cocky attitude of some of these players and their agents. And of course I don't understand the sympathy for the "poor" players from some posters on this board.

Do you realize that most of the players if not for the NBA owners business acumen, they would either be in trouble (some are anyway) or at best making a minimum pay?
Their life is a sweet dream than anybody wishes for himself.
Also in this economy when most of US population struggles to make ends meet, they complain for not making enough money
I'm surprised to see any public support for these spoiled brats. Most of them end up poor anyway after blowing them in Vegas, drugs, etc. Easy come, easy go...

That's pretty stereotypical and racist.

You care to explain why do you feel that way or you just want to continue to spam while fulfilling your agenda?

[DG88]

Chris Mannix gives his take on the Labour issue on NBA TV
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... pdate.nba/

[highness]

I really despise the cocky attitude of some of these players and their agents. And of course I don't understand the sympathy for the "poor" players from some posters on this board.

Do you realize that most of the players if not for the NBA owners business acumen, they would either be in trouble (some are anyway) or at best making a minimum pay?
Their life is a sweet dream than anybody wishes for himself.
Also in this economy when most of US population struggles to make ends meet, they complain for not making enough money
I'm surprised to see any public support for these spoiled brats. Most of them end up poor anyway after blowing them in Vegas, drugs, etc. Easy come, easy go...

That's pretty stereotypical and racist.

You care to explain why do you feel that way or you just want to continue to spam while fulfilling your agenda?

It's obvious that you assume that most of the players will be in trouble with the law because of the colour of their skin. Otherwise how else would you come to a conclusion like that when you know nothing about the player's lives outside of basketball?