Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 2

[DreamTeam09]

Lebron's struggles are definitely mental. He was passing up open 3's and just not shooting the ball at all. The Mavs played zone and Lebron just refused to try and break it. I can't imagine Jordan passing up an open 3 against a zone, and he wasn't a very good 3 point shooter either outside of a couple of seasons.

Jordan was a zone killer for many reasons. His mid range game being the main point. Something that Lebron doesn't have.

[Basketball_Jones]

That's true as well. Lebron still checked out mentally though. He can still create with the best of them. Maybe another example should be used.

[Rapcity_11]

Lebron's struggles are definitely mental. He was passing up open 3's and just not shooting the ball at all. The Mavs played zone and Lebron just refused to try and break it. I can't imagine Jordan passing up an open 3 against a zone, and he wasn't a very good 3 point shooter either outside of a couple of seasons.

Jordan was a zone killer for many reasons. His mid range game being the main point. Something that Lebron doesn't have.

Lebron shot 44.7% from 10-15 feet last year and 45% from 16-23 feet. On a combined 7 attempts per game.

Those are elite percentages on high volume.

[DreamTeam09]

Glad you avoided answering me head on and some key points but let's go at this again....

Then why did he put up a total of 10pts and 6 4th quaters games in the NBA finals. He's a great passer. Lebron Iso up top, I am not afraid of in the least bit. Froce left into the help and hes going to charge into and get a foul call or not... I can show you countless of youtube plays. You don't need to break guys down off the dribble in order to create. KD creates in the ways Demar and H.Barnes can and will. Post up smaller players, attack the bigger players to get your shot off clean or to get to the basket. KD doesn't have premiere handles. Dwade can create yes!! Its not the end all be all in order to be a star player. Its over-rated in some aspects because you still need to finish the shot, get to the line, or make a pass which is all independent of "creating" The Mavs won the ship this yr with Marion, D.Stevenson, Jet, and Cardinal on the wings, none of those guys are what one consider a good creater...

1. It's clear that when I criticize Barnes for not having "ballhandling" skills you have an image of a player who's got ridiculous handles, crossing over people left and right like he were Allen Iverson...because you've spent time refercing PG size players not large wings.

2. AGAIN address how Lebron beat teams like the Pistons and Celtics with his "limited" ballhandling skills...teams like that were far too good to just "barrell" through. For one barrelling requires a lot of open space either from open court or spaces left open by the defences....OR THEY ARE CREATED. BOS or DET would without doubt close up all available lanes and very rarely give fastbreak opportunites....

Keep in mind, he did this in CLE as the LONE target of the defence -- he had to figure out ways to manipulate and get around the defences while BEING THE PRIMARY BALLHANDLER in the offence. Mike Brown was long criticized for seemingly having very limited offensive schemes other then getting the ball to James and expecting him to create....oddly somehow with what you dub as average or comparible handles to Barnes he was a player averaging 30pts, 7 apg and 7rpg...explain to me again how that happens???

3. Then I call on exhibit "A" in which Durant uses his handles on several occasions to get his shots off and score at will

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzBGlL3ZQc[/youtube]
Feel free to show me comparible footage of DeMar or Barnes, crossing over defenders or using other forms manipulating their dribble to create openings (A BIG PART OF BALLHANDLING YOU DON'T SEEM TO COMPREHEND) like Kev just did....I'll wait.

So you show me a video fo a charity game to prove your point. Check 1:36 of that video where KD does that weak crossover that killed lebron lol, prolly woulda got called for palming the L. All you saw there were weak crossovers, hesi moves & studder steps. None of that **** was crisp because that really aint their games. You see how they are able to finish so well tho because Durant is a lights out shooter and can get to the rim with his length. Exactly what I said b4. Nor am I comparing Demar to lebron or freaking KD. But some1 anyone go post a demar video from this summer, you'll see the same ****. Heck he even throws in a few spin moves... James Harden, joe johnson, tyreke evans, Rudy Gay are wing players with elite handles.

[Basketball_Jones]

Man, just use another example. I get what you're trying to say, but Lebron and Durant still have better handles and creativity then what Barnes has shown. (I'm on the Barnes wagon now BTW)

[Kabookalu]

1) Lebron choked in the finals because he has no mid-range game! And didn't / couldn't do it for himself as his #s and game showed. We let him take those 3s and sag offed off of him, let him try to get to the basket... What good is lebron James is you are going to defer to wade, bosh, haslem, miller, and whoever else wanted the ball...

I must be fooled, what was LeBron doing to Chicago the series before if he has no mid range game to speak of?

2)I'm not sayin Barnes or Demar are KD, my point was this "creativity" or "handle" that is being craved by a lot of posters is over-rated. Even if KD is better than Barnes or Demar, that isn't something that defines his game is it. KD is not known as that type of baller. He's a lights out shooter who can put the ball on the deck & get to the rim with his length right????

He gets to the rim because he has underrated athleticism. I'll give you that his game isn't predicated on it, but his combination of off the ball game and his athleticism is what makes him a deadly scorer; not all of it is on his shooting. And length doesn't help you get to the basket any quicker.

3) The poster asked me what WINGS duo or w/e are on team that are contenders. Yes ino about DIRK. Thats my favourite player/team. This was the sole reason why the mavs never won a championship b4, because they never had that wing help. When they did with josh howard, they went to the finals, and his dumb ass choked away game 3. Finley did his thing back in the day too.

Wasn't aware of the post you were responding to, nonetheless it does not mean we should build out team model through an exception; that's like turning a blind eye to acquiring help in the front court because Jordan was able to get it done with Luc Longley.

[Rapture]

Just finished watching San Diego State vs Baylor. I tried to watch Quincy Miller real close for the whole game because he has been my favourite prospect so far. A few points that i picked up:

-Very skilled and smooth offensive player. Has a great feel for the game. He can pretty much do it all. Can create from the perimeter and get to the basket or pull up for a jump shot. Knows angles well and can draw fouls (so far 5.8fta/g in 28mins). Also has a little bit of post game, mainly because of his good touch around the basket. Also an underrated passer!

-Like others have said it's clear that he's not yet recovered from the ACL injury. It looked almost like he was limping when running full court. Also seemed slow lateraly.

-Difficult to evaluate defense because Baylor was playing zone most of the game. Some rookie mistakes here and there but his awareness seemed to be ok.

-Does have average/good length for SF position but not great/freakish like Durant.

-Has great attitude and overall intangibles.

Two things that will be very important as the season progresses:

1. Baylor has no playmakers at all. Their offensive game is not very beautiful to watch. Perry Jones will be back for the next game. How will Q. Miller react and how much responsibility will he get as a playmaker from perimeter when he moves back to his true position SF.

2. How will he progress athletically! He has all the skills in the world to be even a first option in the NBA. Now the question is how much can he regain/improve his athleticism in the next couple of years. This will determine if he can become a star or just an above average player in the league. He'll have a hardtime being a premier shot creator if he can't improve athletically because of the low release also.


Should be veeery interesting to see how he develops and how they can play together with P. Jones.

[Dr Positivity]

Quincy is a flat out PF to me at the next level, his on ball ability and speed is good and not exceptional... for a 4, in college. At the 3, in the NBA? Unless he has a burst of speed in him he hasn't shown because of the ACL injury I don't see it.

[JamesNaismith]

So you show me a video fo a charity game to prove your point.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUHvbmoIFGk[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STG0oJC9gwE&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8KXPl3sT9M&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shCfTKLXMLM[/youtube]
There's more NBA footage...would you like the beating to continue???

[God Squad]

Despite what some posters think, I actually think us netting 1-2 pick isn't unlikely. Quite possible actually. I actually think most/every team is better than us lol.

[fredericklove]

What is everyone's opinion on kendall marshall? What if the worst happens and we are picking in the 12-14 range? oh yikes, nevermind, is averaging 5 points on 36% from the field. No thank you ha

the dude is a legit disher. i thinks thats good when our squad has guys like demar, ed davis, amir and val who needs a pg to create for them since they cant create that well. its okay that hes shooting 36% from the floor. thatll improve with better coaching hopefully. his court vision and size is intriguing for a pg. if he learns how to abuse smaller guards thatd be soo sick

For a 12-14 range, I rather get Kabongo cos his potential is much higher, he's no weakling when it comes to running a team and he also has defensive potential too..., I don't expect him to be a Rondo but a guy who's solid at the point guard role: passes, defend, runs a team...I like all that about him and he's a local kid I love to have him represent' tdot.

Marshall is amazing passer but his lack of everything else screams problematic for the raptors.

[bboyskinnylegs]

Despite what some posters think, I actually think us netting 1-2 pick isn't unlikely. Quite possible actually. I actually think most/every team is better than us lol.

netting a #1 or #2 pick isn't likely for any team. Even if we're the worst team in the league, all that assures us of is a top 4 pick because of the lottery system.

[fredericklove]

The only way to top that is to find a combination that has the potential to match that or top it....which is why I LOVE the thought of getting Drummond (and second Davis) cuz when you pair him with Jonas you suddenly have Twin Towers just gobbling up the post (also why I keep insisting on trying out Oden) and if your a top young FA of any position PG - SF you're going to strongly consider getting with that team and THAT would be a TRUE contender and team that the other elites would have to deal with in 2-3 years time.

Drafting Drummond/Davis would be good duo with Jonas...I like this twin tower idea even months ago..., I'm aiming toward Davis now cos Drummond is just too damn soft. I love his potential but absolutely hate the kid's lack of aggressiveness and poor BBIQ. The thing I'm afraid of is that Drummond looks like a 3 year project despite having the best talent., it's gonna take awhile for him to dominate, if he can figure things out that is. If he doesn't, I don't wanna waste time waiting for this guy to get it together it might take awhile..., Drummond is either a hit or miss, he's either going to be a monster or a bust. Such a huge gamble for us to handle.

On the other hand, Davis looks like a guy who can contribute and be an instant impact right away, his hustle/energy/defensive presence/BBIQ are amazing. Size is the only issue for him that can work out over the summer time..., this is why I prefer Davis over Drummond. We'll have a legit go to guy on the team tho ugly and uni-brow-ish he's still going to be our best player no matter what.

Barnes is a good talent to be added to our team, some attack him being marvin williams, hey he was also compared to Kobe (funny), Grant Hill, Granger or Deng. I don't like player comparisons. People use comparison to either praise or attack in a debate. All I'm saying is he's an ideal pick in the top 5 (outside of top 2), he's just another great talent to have on our roster. He's not done developing his talent in my opinion. His smarts and superb work ethic are going to help him a whole lot. Good players know how to learn and adjust. He's going to find lots of different ways to score. I just like his all around talent (except dribbling).

[The Chucker]

Quincy is a flat out PF to me at the next level, his on ball ability and speed is good and not exceptional... for a 4, in college. At the 3, in the NBA? Unless he has a burst of speed in him he hasn't shown because of the ACL injury I don't see it.

speed isnt bout everything and its harder when you have an acl injury like he has had. quincy is honestly one of the most craftiess offensive players in the ncaa right now imo. steph curry isnt the most athletic guy on the floor but his creativity and craftiness with the ball in his hands is phenomenal much like quincy. quincy's ability to create and read the defense is off the charts.

[DreamTeam09]

LOL...you seriously have nothing to offer in this discussion.


"Weak" crosses overs?!? That's truly laughable...it was indeed "crisp" but again you clearly have POINT GUARDS like Iverson and Rose in your mind when comparing (also insanely funny how you say Rudy Gay hahah who's handles were openly criticized until he tightened them up but still isn't at Lebron or KD's level). Please feel free to compare any other SFs with better ballhandling skills and AGAIN let it sink in that ballhandling is not just "sick crossovers".....there are so many subtlities of ballhandling skills, many of which were displayed in change of paces, redirection, stutter steps etc.

Length is also not the determining factor why Durant gets to the rim...that's just flat out stupid lol. If that were the case then just put Chris Bosh out on the wings and let him do the same. Although Chris himself is considered to be a decent ballhandler at PF, it would be embarassing if he tried to CREATE like Durant does because Kev's BALLHANDLING SKILL is far superior to his...please get familar with what that entails because now you just sound either uneducated or stubborn.

Finally again PLEASE ADDRESS:

HOW DID LEBRON AS THE PRIMARY BALLHANDLER FOR THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS BEAT THE PISTONS AND NEARLY BEAT THE CELTICS ALL BY HIMSELF WITH JUST AVERAGE HANDLES? THE 2 BEST DEFENCES IN THE LAST DECADE.

*keep in mind you're claiming he has doesn't have good ballhandling, you seem to think I'm stating Barnes needs to be at DRose level....also answer do you think Barnes or DeRozan at their peak would be able to breakdown the Pistons or Celtics???? Didn't think so....you might start getting it.

Their are just to many fundamental points that I disagree with you on to go back and forth.

[The Chucker]

For a 12-14 range, I rather get Kabongo cos his potential is much higher, he's no weakling when it comes to running a team and he also has defensive potential too..., I don't expect him to be a Rondo but a guy who's solid at the point guard role: passes, defend, runs a team...I like all that about him and he's a local kid I love to have him represent' tdot.

Marshall is amazing passer but his lack of everything else screams problematic for the raptors.

hmmmmm ive played against myck and tbh, hes not that great. yeah he sees the floor and playmakes pree good and is a fast guy, tho he a bit too raw for my liking. he doesnt do anything exceptionally well. as a playmaker marshall is much better. i dont see his body filling out unlike marshall who has an nba ready body.

marshall isnt the most athletic dude, tho hes smart you know? i always see him make the right rotations and ****. i personally dont think its too important to have a lockdown defender at the pg.

[JamesNaismith]

The only way to top that is to find a combination that has the potential to match that or top it....which is why I LOVE the thought of getting Drummond (and second Davis) cuz when you pair him with Jonas you suddenly have Twin Towers just gobbling up the post (also why I keep insisting on trying out Oden) and if your a top young FA of any position PG - SF you're going to strongly consider getting with that team and THAT would be a TRUE contender and team that the other elites would have to deal with in 2-3 years time.

Drafting Drummond/Davis would be good duo with Jonas...I like this twin tower idea even months ago..., I'm aiming toward Davis now cos Drummond is just too damn soft.

Barnes is a good talent to be added to our team, some attack him being marvin williams, hey he was also compared to Kobe (funny), Grant Hill, Granger or Deng. I don't like player comparisons. People use comparison to either praise or attack in a debate. All I'm saying is he's an ideal pick in the top 5 (outside of top 2), he's just another great talent to have on our roster. He's not done developing his talent in my opinion. His smarts and superb work ethic are going to help him a whole lot. Good players know how to learn and adjust. He's going to find lots of different ways to score. I just like his all around talent (except dribbling).

I hear ya on Anthony Davis, I'm just a bit more in line with 5DOM's feeling....that this franchise not only needs to hit a HR to be a true championship contender but a grand slam lol and if Drummond reaches that potential that's exactly what you would have. The kid has similarites to Amare (scoring), Webber (passing) and Howard (shotblocking). He does looks a bit out of sorts, some blame is on him and some of it I contribute to Calhoun and the face mask. Either way, he when he fills out he's going to be a huge body in the post and again at his peak is just scary.

All that said I would have absolutely no qualms about taking Davis either, just Drummond's ceiling is slightly higher imo.

As for Barnes I've never hated him as our pick but these draft threads are asking WHO DO WE PICK IF ALL THESE PLAYERS WERE OUR OPTION....and under that assumption it makes little to no sense how Harrison was previously leading the poll and still very popular when he just doesn't seem to have franchise potential to him. Especially since THIS is THE draft for us as we will likely not be back in the bottom five again for awhile and as I explained DeRozan/Barnes/Val just isn't going to get the job done --- would love all 3 guys as people but they are high end complimentary pieces.

I just don't feel like being the next generation of the Atlanta Hawks....

so I'll pass on Barnes' high floor and low ceiling for a bigger gamble that may take us somewhere meaningful in this league.

[7-Day Dray]

Durant's handles aren't very good for a SF. He has good handles for someone his height, but his handles are not very good in general. His poor handle is what cost OKC game 6 in the WCF. I can't find the video right now, but Durant had a key turnover late that was caused because of his poor handle. He can get in the lane sometimes because of his ability to straight-line drive and his long stride, but he's not a guy that can consistently breakdown the defense from the perimeter, that's just not his game. His forte is jumpshooting. He's a great off-the-ball player that can come around screens, and he can get in the lane occasionally and get bailed out by the refs.

But he proves that you can be a deadly scorer without having game-breaking handles.

[God Squad]

Despite what some posters think, I actually think us netting 1-2 pick isn't unlikely. Quite possible actually. I actually think most/every team is better than us lol.

netting a #1 or #2 pick isn't likely for any team. Even if we're the worst team in the league, all that assures us of is a top 4 pick because of the lottery system.

true enough, But i'd prefer odds to be in our favor (crappy record) opposed to being slated to draft 4-5-6

[gerrit4]

From what I've seen of both players (admittedly limited), I must say that Drummonds passing is very overrated, and Davis' passing is very underrated. Davis seems to have incredible court vision, and Drummond is only able to make crazy behind the back passes. I'll take vision over flash any day...