The Amazingly Suck Theodore Leonsis Thread

[Cramer]

Allow me to step in and give CCJ some love. And I gotta admit, I like giving CCJ some love.

I don't have a "hate" for Saunders (I like to gamble and sometimes you keep getting dealt **** cards) but from what I see, EJ don't look so damn bad. Yea, I was one of the the EJ....what was the term used back then...nut hugger, butt muncher, sumptin.....? I was one of those.....

How many coaches are we going to need to bring through before we say, "eh, maybe we got bad ingredients?"

[Induveca]

I honestly have no idea why anyone is defending Saunders. He has failed miserably right alongside Grunfeld.

He obviously has input in organizational meetings concerning trades/staffing etc.

His failures go beyond on the court coaching. The players he has helped select alongside Grunfels have amounted to a D-League squad on most nights.

Going back 10 years to announce two all stars who loved playing for Flip means nothing. In addition Garnett would have flourished under anyone, and pretty much every PG to ever play alongside KG looked far better at any point in their career otherwise (Hello Terrell Brandon, Billups, Cassell, Rondo, Marbury).

Barkley/Kevin Johnson also loved Paul Westphal (he who failed miserably in Sacramento and was axed).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Grunfeld made all the wrong moves for stretch under Pollin. Resigning an injured Gil was a mistake. I said so before he did it. I couldn't be mad at Gil for opting out hurt, but it seemed to me he wasn't healthy and it was very unwise to resign Gil. The package deal with Jamison was something I went on and on about. If I could see that was a bad move I don't really see why EG couldn't. Gil stayed hurt. I can remember debating Arenas' health the same way we debate Flip Saunders. So many of you were as wrong then as you are now IMO.

Flip Saunders coached them to 26-56 that first season. Look back at that roster. Recall the trades for Miller and Foye that were win-now moves. Flip brought in Oberto. Stevenson's back was hurting but he still played ahead of Young just like Oberto played ahead of McGee. I posted about that then, only for most to tell me then how great of a coach Flip is. In addition to playing DeShawn ahead of Nick Young, Flip even played Quinton Ross ahead of Nick. That year Flip had a veteran lineup and young bigs off the bench. He had a lot of shooters.

Here is the opening night roster that beat Dallas in 2009-2010.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70DAL.html

I don't retract what I said about Flip -- he has been IMO a terrible Wizards coach.

What I do say now is if these players, even now, respond and compete under him THIS SEASON I don't see a need to fire him until the end of the season. If the Wizards want the culture to change, they need to get rid of him and Ernie.

My other comments about what Flip did before and me not holding a grudge is just how I want to be.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Allow me to step in and give CCJ some love. And I gotta admit, I like giving CCJ some love.

I don't have a "hate" for Saunders (I like to gamble and sometimes you keep getting dealt **** cards) but from what I see, EJ don't look so damn bad. Yea, I was one of the the EJ....what was the term used back then...nut hugger, butt muncher, sumptin.....? I was one of those.....

How many coaches are we going to need to bring through before we say, "eh, maybe we got bad ingredients?"

Honestly, I think these players have talent but just lack experience. Saunders coached the way I hoped he would all along against OKC, judging by the different combinations of players he used (I didn't see the game). I have been reading that he cannot win with this group and I don't believe it.

It helps that Nick Young got 22 in the second half against OKC. I think now that Wall has his swagger back and Nick Young has his legs, and also now that Blatche has bottomed out (he can only be better from here out); the Wizards CAN compete. Yeah, they need shooters. Yes, they need a true big man to score at the rim. Something has to happen to make the team good, but I think they are MUCH BETTER THAN THEIR RECORD. With Wall playing the way he is now, the Wizards record is going to get a lot better sooner than later.

I think Washington could be a 40-win team in one season if they make the right change at head coach and if they sign the right FAs.

[nate33]

For those of you defending EJ, please remember how bad he was in Philly.

He took over a 41-41 team with the 14th ranked defense in the NBA and in one year, turned them into a 27-55 record with the 24th ranked defense. He had the same basic roster only Brand was healthier and young players like Thad Young and Maurice Speights had a year more seasoning.

Collins took that same team minus Dalembert and won 41 games the next year (and a 45 win pace going by point differential). He's on a 55-60 win pace this year.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I don't even care about EJ in Philly other than to say EJ was lousy in Philly just like Flip has been lousy in DC. Only EJ got fired quickly in Philly, unlike Flip Saunders. They didn't wait to see if the guy could turn it around. Flip had one win less than EJ's first season and kept his job.

This time (in games played) last year, the Wizards had a BETTER record than Collin's Philadelphia team. If Flip is even as good as EJ, how do you account for the following?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30WAS.html

Flip beat Collins the first two times and had a 5-8 record. Collins team was 3-11. The rest of the season Flip went 18-51. Collins took his team to 38-30 the rest of the way.

-Flip won less games his first season with Washington than Eddie did his only season in Philadelphia.
-Flip won even less games his second season.
-Collins turned his team around far better as Flip ran his team into the ground. You Flip apologists have one excuse after another, but the fact of the matter is Washington beat Philadelphia twice in November at the start of last season. How is it Collins won twice as many games the rest of the season?

EJ went 1-10 one season after having 43 wins and a playoff appearance and he got fired. His next gig he went 27-55 and got fired.

That 41-41 Collins team, nate, BLASTED BY FLIP'S CRAPPY TEAM. Flip has had much more time than EJ got. You want to point out EJ's failings but the truth is in the very same season, and having a team that beat Collins twice early, Flip totally flopped and lost even more games. 23-59 makes two seasons Flip has been worse than EJ. So far, 2-12 is making it three.

Flip has been graced with better luck that he hasn't been fired. That is all.

[Zonkerbl]

For those of you defending EJ, please remember how bad he was in Philly.

He took over a 41-41 team with the 14th ranked defense in the NBA and in one year, turned them into a 27-55 record with the 24th ranked defense. He had the same basic roster only Brand was healthier and young players like Thad Young and Maurice Speights had a year more seasoning.

Collins took that same team minus Dalembert and won 41 games the next year (and a 45 win pace going by point differential). He's on a 55-60 win pace this year.

SMH

[whataknight301]

I dont think ernie has ever been in a successful rebuilding mode cause he never really had to rebuild.
In the past he had ray allen, glen robinson, cassell with the Bucks. And that new york team with larry johnson, allan houston, sprewell..etc I dont recall ernie ever having to rebuild from scratch before the wiz.
I beleive when the late abe pollin was there, ernie was hired as the gm for wash, to take it to the next level. especially after the arenas era; which arenas was not out own product. Kwame Brown, A younger Rip, Jarvis Hayes, Ramos, Pech, never panned out as a "own" product. I dont think ernie and flip came here to rebuild. They will be gone next season I think, then maybe we can bring in a gm who has experience in drafting and growing young talent in the past. I really believe that ted will bring in his own guys for gm and coach next season.
and build on the draft and talent. plus he has admitted that hes not cheap. he wants to win as badly as we want them to.

[Illuminaire]

A lot of stuff

You're playing a fantastic game of whackamole right now, CCJ. By which I mean, every time someone brings up a point that counters one of your arguments, you just bring up an older argument that they didn't happen to address in that post... no matter how well it was already dealt with a few pages back.

Defending EJ over Flip is the sign of desperation, my friend.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Whackamole!

I was the only guy in the room (so to speak) saying don't sign Gil, draft Millsap, Javale is good, and the very first to say what I'm still saying three years in: Flip sucks as Wizards coach. I believe EJ was a better WIZARDS coach.

The things you guys do not address about Eddie Jordan in Philadelphia are much like what went down with Flip.

1. EJ inherited Iverson his last season with the Sixers. AI was traded 25 games into the season.
2. Jrue Holiday was a 19-year old rookie.
3. Elton Brand the two seasons before EJ came had played in 8 and 30 games. He was devastated by Achilles and shoulder injuries. Brand is a MUCH better player now for Collins. He balked against the offense Jordan wanted to run but Elton Brand wasn't playing as well as Mareese Speights then.

Not to defend EJ. I said he was lousy at Philly. He benched Thaddeus Young and he misused Dalembert. Of course their defense was bad.

My point is Flip Saunders has been just as bad as Wizard coach.

Nothing you Flip lovers can do will convince me differently, either.

[nate33]

I don't even care about EJ in Philly other than to say EJ was lousy in Philly just like Flip has been lousy in DC. Only EJ got fired quickly in Philly, unlike Flip Saunders. They didn't wait to see if the guy could turn it around. Flip had one win less than EJ's first season and kept his job.

This time (in games played) last year, the Wizards had a BETTER record than Collin's Philadelphia team. If Flip is even as good as EJ, how do you account for the following?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30WAS.html

Flip beat Collins the first two times and had a 5-8 record. Collins team was 3-11. The rest of the season Flip went 18-51. Collins took his team to 38-30 the rest of the way.

-Flip won less games his first season with Washington than Eddie did his only season in Philadelphia.
-Flip won even less games his second season.
-Collins turned his team around far better as Flip ran his team into the ground. You Flip apologists have one excuse after another, but the fact of the matter is Washington beat Philadelphia twice in November at the start of last season. How is it Collins won twice as many games the rest of the season?

EJ went 1-10 one season after having 43 wins and a playoff appearance and he got fired. His next gig he went 27-55 and got fired.

That 41-41 Collins team, nate, BLASTED BY FLIP'S CRAPPY TEAM. Flip has had much more time than EJ got. You want to point out EJ's failings but the truth is in the very same season, and having a team that beat Collins twice early, Flip totally flopped and lost even more games. 23-59 makes two seasons Flip has been worse than EJ. So far, 2-12 is making it three.

Flip has been graced with better luck that he hasn't been fired. That is all.

Sorry CCJ, but your logic doesn't compute. I think you are somehow arguing that EJ did better than Flip but I don't see how that argument flies. EJ, coaching essentially the same team, did significantly worse than the coach before him and the coach after him. There is no way to deny that he was a terrible coach. That's why he was fired.

Flip took over a really bad team that has stayed really bad (while losing it's good veteran players). But unlike EJ, he hasn't made them worse. You can knock Flip for not pulling a miraculous turnaround, and maybe that's a firable offense. But you can't tell me he did worse than EJ. EJ was 1-11 when the team had talent. Up until the start of this season, Flip has done better than that with significantly less talent.

(All that said, you can make a fair case that Flip can be fired now based on our 1-11 start. But I still say he's better than EJ.)

[Dat2U]

My point is Flip Saunders has been just as bad as Wizard coach.

Nothing you Flip lovers can do will convince me differently, either.

I can only imagine how bad Wall's defense would be right now if Eddie Jordan was coach.

Nothing you can say could convince me that EJ was even a respectable coach. I'm no fan of Flip, but he's tolerable IMO. Not great, or even good, but tolerable. I want Flip gone at this point but using the EJ era to knock Flip isn't much of an argument in my book.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

nate, here it is, Barney simple: You are quite wrong this time.

1. EJ did not coach the same team.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2010.html

Andre Miller was the PG the season before. He was not on the roster under Jordan.
Allen Iverson (age 34) returned to Philly and failed under EJ. Rookie Jrue Holiday, age 19, was the PG. He and Lou Williams, age 23 ran PG for Eddie Jordan.

2. Doug Collins did not inherit the same team that EJ had.

No Willie Green. No Sam Dalembert. No distraction to start his season, Allen Iverson.
Collins had new players Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes. He had players that were 19 and 22 year-old rookies for EJ one year older--JRue Holiday and Jodie Meeks.

If you cannot see how having Lou Williams, Jodie Meeks, JRue Holiday and Evan Turner all pushing one another to improve is not better than having Allen Iverson at 34 and Willie Green chucking shots, just go ahead and blame Eddie Jordan while you praise Flip.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

My point is Flip Saunders has been just as bad as Wizard coach.

Nothing you Flip lovers can do will convince me differently, either.

I can only imagine how bad Wall's defense would be right now if Eddie Jordan was coach.

Nothing you can say could convince me that EJ was even a respectable coach. I'm no fan of Flip, but he's tolerable IMO. Not great, or even good, but tolerable. I want Flip gone at this point but using the EJ era to knock Flip isn't much of an argument in my book.

I can only imagine how much Wall would be improved if EJ was Wall's coach. What guard ever played worse under Eddie Jordan, and when did offense ever suffer when he coached the Wizards?

Larry Hughes?
DeShawn Stevenson?
Antonio Daniels?

Who did EJ keep from putting up numbers and getting paid? Wall would never have any confidence problems under EJ and if anything, playing wild and free would have been better for him IMO.

Dat, how much better is Wall's defense overall this season and can you really attribute that to Flip Saunders? I know Wall shut down Lowry and he's doing better, but really? He's a good defender? EJ would have made this kid ... worse?

The reason I think I'm keeping the fight with respect to EJ is I knew protect the paint was bad and I knew Haywood was better than Etan, but in all the years Eddie coached here I liked him and respected his work. He had a team that got injured a ton and didn't have any great athletes or defenders on it but he made four straight playoffs.

You act like Lebron James didn't get to travel and the Wizards didn't get ripped in the playoffs several years.

EJ was a respectable coach who took a team as far as it could go talent-wise to four playoffs. Why didn't he go farther in the playoffs? Cleveland had Lebron.

Why didn't he do better in the playoffs? Often, Caron Butler or Gilbert Arenas were injured.

What I KNOW FOR A FACT is the people on this board can all be wrong and I am right. This is one of those times. Maybe doclinkin will chime in, but you guys low rating Eddie Jordan and respecting Flip Saunders are wrong, wrong, wrong.

I hate to tell you this, but this isn't the first time you've thought I was wrong, either.

[Nivek]

Kinda interesting, CCJ how you're able to notice the differences between the Philly teams Eddie coached, his predecessor coached, and Doug Collins coached, but you somehow don't know notice the differences between the Wizards teams Eddie coached and the one Flip has coached.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Kinda interesting, CCJ how you're able to notice the differences between the Philly teams Eddie coached, his predecessor coached, and Doug Collins coached, but you somehow don't know notice the differences between the Wizards teams Eddie coached and the one Flip has coached.

I only noticed Philly because nate went there.

As far as the team Flip coached at the beginning of 2009-2010, that roster had Gil on it and it beat Dallas in game one. That team had Blatche, McGee, and Young on the bench and more experienced than they had been under EJ. Flip had Miller and Foye and Oberto, all experienced free agent additions. (Not the same team as the year before, nate). He had Arenas. He had Butler, Stevenson, Haywood, and Jamison--with AJ being injured.

Flip had a lot more size in the middle, with experience than EJ had. Enough to beat Dirk's Mavs on opening night.

Nivek, Flip had more talent than EJ did IMO.

Not maliciously or anything, but I remember the song that went "You Can't See What I Can See", and Flava Flav had the line "You're blind, baby".

People want to tee off on EJ about 1-10 and about him failing in Philly. Allen Iverson for 25 games doesn't even register with them. New system, run the rest of the season by JRue Holiday at 19, no excuse.

But Flip takes a team and gets the #1 overall pick and goes from 26 to 23 wins, and you guys say he's done a respectable job???? I try not to cuss, but that rates a "Dayum!" Whatever, we'll just disagree on this one.

[Induveca]

How about this?

EJ and Flip are poor coaches.

I sincerely hope Flip follows EJ into high school coaching after he is axed.

Posted this in another thread.....but for good luck (from today).

Chioke Hassan (Baltimore,Md)
Dear RicCould you see Flip Saunders gone after this season?
Ric Bucher
From the rumblings I've heard, it could be sooner than that.

[Nivek]

Kinda interesting, CCJ how you're able to notice the differences between the Philly teams Eddie coached, his predecessor coached, and Doug Collins coached, but you somehow don't know notice the differences between the Wizards teams Eddie coached and the one Flip has coached.

I only noticed Philly because nate went there.

As far as the team Flip coached at the beginning of 2009-2010, that roster had Gil on it and it beat Dallas in game one. That team had Blatche, McGee, and Young on the bench and more experienced than they had been under EJ. Flip had Miller and Foye and Oberto, all experienced free agents. He still had Arenas. He had Butler, Stevenson, Haywood, and Jamison--with AJ being injured.

Flip had a lot more size in the middle, with experience than EJ had. Enough to beat Dirk's Mavs on opening night.

Nivek, Flip had more talent than EJ did IMO.

Not maliciously or anything, but I remember the song that went "You Can't See What I Can See", and Flava Flav had the line "You're blind, baby".

People want to tee off on EJ about 1-10 and about him failing in Philly. Allen Iverson for 25 games doesn't even register with them. New system, run the rest of the season by JRue Holiday at 19, no excuse.

But Flip takes a team and gets the #1 overall pick and goes from 26 to 23 wins, and you guys say he's done a respectable job???? I try not to cuss, but that rates a "Dayum!" Whatever, we'll just disagree on this one.

Dude, if you think the Arenas Flip had was the same as the Arenas Eddie had, you're just wrong. But whatever. I said I was done this once before, but just when I think I'm out you keep pulling me back in.

I'm not knocking Eddie -- for like the umpteenth time, I thought he was a decent coach. I think he'd have been a lot more successful if he'd placed more emphasis on defense or he'd kept Thibodeau around.

And by the way, I'm not even really defending Flip here. I think he should be fired. I want them to hire Joerger to see if a different voice might actually get better performance from these players. But, as Cramer said -- I don't think the issue is coaching. It's worth giving a coaching change a try, though.

But whatever -- I think I'm done with this conversation.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The good news is I think we will be happy with the next coach.

I believe Ted will do the right things. I hope so, any way.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Kinda interesting, CCJ how you're able to notice the differences between the Philly teams Eddie coached, his predecessor coached, and Doug Collins coached, but you somehow don't know notice the differences between the Wizards teams Eddie coached and the one Flip has coached.

I only noticed Philly because nate went there.

As far as the team Flip coached at the beginning of 2009-2010, that roster had Gil on it and it beat Dallas in game one. That team had Blatche, McGee, and Young on the bench and more experienced than they had been under EJ. Flip had Miller and Foye and Oberto, all experienced free agents. He still had Arenas. He had Butler, Stevenson, Haywood, and Jamison--with AJ being injured.

Flip had a lot more size in the middle, with experience than EJ had. Enough to beat Dirk's Mavs on opening night.

Nivek, Flip had more talent than EJ did IMO.

Not maliciously or anything, but I remember the song that went "You Can't See What I Can See", and Flava Flav had the line "You're blind, baby".

People want to tee off on EJ about 1-10 and about him failing in Philly. Allen Iverson for 25 games doesn't even register with them. New system, run the rest of the season by JRue Holiday at 19, no excuse.

But Flip takes a team and gets the #1 overall pick and goes from 26 to 23 wins, and you guys say he's done a respectable job???? I try not to cuss, but that rates a "Dayum!" Whatever, we'll just disagree on this one.

Dude, if you think the Arenas Flip had was the same as the Arenas Eddie had, you're just wrong. But whatever. I said I was done this once before, but just when I think I'm out you keep pulling me back in.

I'm not knocking Eddie -- for like the umpteenth time, I thought he was a decent coach. I think he'd have been a lot more successful if he'd placed more emphasis on defense or he'd kept Thibodeau around.

And by the way, I'm not even really defending Flip here. I think he should be fired. I want them to hire Joerger to see if a different voice might actually get better performance from these players. But, as Cramer said -- I don't think the issue is coaching. It's worth giving a coaching change a try, though.

But whatever -- I think I'm done with this conversation.

Dude, where's my car? (Just didn't know where to go from dude, Kevin).

This feels like a war on several fronts to me. There are factions against me who respect Flip and think EJ was a terrible coach (Dat). Factions who qualify Fiip's lack of success even more than just respecting him--they think he's a good coach (nate). At the same time nate downs EJ, like most EXCEPT (as for as far as can keep track of Nivek and doclinkin). There are still others who say both EJ and Eddie suck.

The post a few pages up where I posted that EJ was the 2007 all star coach and Flip was the 2006 and 2004 all star coach expresses my views.

About EJ and Flip: They have been successful in the past. They both failed at their latest/last NBA stop. I prefer EJ as a coach, but I respect a lot of Flip's technical skills. I think Eddie would have done not just a little better, but a lot better with this Wizards group. Flip succeeded in the past but I am too blinded by what I have seen the past three years to be objective about him. I am sure the man knows how to coach. I just don't see it with the Wizards.

I think Induveca saying they are both terrible with respect to what have they done lately might be the most appropriate thing.

At the same time, as Wizard coach each of two seasons, Doug Collins was 37-45 and failed to make the playoffs both times. He sucked was the consensus then. He cried at press conferences and whined mightily 10 years ago. Now, he's coaching his butt off.

It all comes down to the team and how it fits the coach. I don't think any of these guys are as bad or as good as we make them out to be. Eddie can coach the right team well. So can Flip.