Official Trade Thread XVIII: 1/20/12 - 5/14/12

[miller31time]

Trading our 1st for Melo falls under the same category as trading it for Pau Gasol that has been discussed and shut down numerous times already.

Also NYK can't amnesty Melo, as far as I'm aware, since they used that already on Billups.

Good call on the amnesty point -- that gives them even more reason to do the trade.

And Melo is 27. Gasol is 31, 32 in July. For that, alone, I don't think you can compare the two in relation to trading a pick for them.

[Illuminaire]

Melo is not a star. He's a moderately efficient scorer and nothing else. Everyone treats him like a superstar because he can score a lot, but that's because people overvalue scoring to begin with.

He looks like one. Carries himself like one. He has the raw talent to be one, and on Team USA, put that talent on full display. Theoretical talent <<<< actual basketball contributions over a long period of time, however.

Just say it with me, then back away from the trade checker. Melo. Is. Not. A. Star.

And he's not worth trading our draft pick for.

[truwizfan4evr]

Melo is a chemistry killer. And he selfish and he plays no d. he's good at scoring. He is pretty much one dimensional and the most overrated star in the Nba.

[miller31time]

Melo is not a star. He's a moderately efficient scorer and nothing else. Everyone treats him like a superstar because he can score a lot, but that's because people overvalue scoring to begin with.

He looks like one. Carries himself like one. He has the raw talent to be one, and on Team USA, put that talent on full display. Theoretical talent <<<< actual basketball contributions over a long period of time, however.

Just say it with me, then back away from the trade checker. Melo. Is. Not. A. Star.

And he's not worth trading our draft pick for.

Moderately efficient?

Year/PER/TS%
03: 17.6 / 50.9%
04: 16.7 / 52.6%
05: 22.0 / 56.3%
06: 22.1 / 55.2%
07: 21.1 / 56.8%
08: 19.0 / 53.2%
09: 22.2 / 54.8%
10: 21.7 / 55.7%
11: 18.7 / 50.0%

He also throws in 3 to 3.5 assists per game while being a good offensive rebounder and for someone with as high a usage rate, he manages to keep his turnovers fairly low.

I'll buy that he's not a superstar in the LeBron, Dwight, Durant mold. I don't know if anyone said he was. But to say he's just a slightly above-average scorer and nothing else is ludicrous.

[Illuminaire]

Moderately efficient may be understating things some seasons, but he's got a few in there that aren't exactly inspiring.

You list his assist totals and note his incredibly high usage, but neglect to connect the two. Melo's assist rate is absolutely mediocre. His TRB% is average, with the exception of two years when Carl was on his case about it constantly.

I'm not trying to say Melo is a bad player, but he is not a game changer. The problem is that he - and the league- believes that he is, which, call me crazy, might just be a bad thing for team chemistry.

Anthony gives you good scoring, average rebounding, average passing, and poor defense. That's one plus, two ehs, and a minus. So yeah... I'm sticking with Melo as an above average scorer and... a whole lot of hype. ^_^

[Illuminaire]

I should note that I've been writing essays all week, I haven't slept much for three days, and I'm probably at least 25% insane at this point. I'll gladly revisit my arguments in a few days to ensure I'm not frothing mad.

[miller31time]

Moderately efficient may be understating things some seasons, but he's got a few in there that aren't exactly inspiring.

You list his assist totals and note his incredibly high usage, but neglect to connect the two. Melo's assist rate is absolutely mediocre. His TRB% is average, with the exception of two years when Carl was on his case about it constantly.

I'm not trying to say Melo is a bad player, but he is not a game changer. The problem is that he - and the league- believes that he is, which, call me crazy, might just be a bad thing for team chemistry.

Anthony gives you good scoring, average rebounding, average passing, and poor defense. That's one plus, two ehs, and a minus. So yeah... I'm sticking with Melo as an above average scorer and... a whole lot of hype. ^_^

You know who else you can say the same about regarding pluses and minuses? Kevin Durant, who while a more efficient scorer has a lower assist percentage, rebound percentage and higher turnover percentage with around the same usage rate. And it's not like Kevin is winning any defensive awards (though, admittedly, he's not terrible in that aspect).

[miller31time]

I should note that I've been writing essays all week, I haven't slept much for three days, and I'm probably at least 25% insane at this point. I'll gladly revisit my arguments in a few days to ensure I'm not frothing mad.

Heh, sounds like some Wiz-Board procrastination to me.

[Ruzious]

Bottom lining Melo's sitiation, if the Knix keep losing with him, and his numbers don't get back up to his normal levels - with his contract - he's got negative trade value. The Knicks would have to take on someone like Blatche in order to dump Melo.

[truwizfan4evr]

lol A mix on Jafail Mcgee bone headed plays. http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/v ... qus_thread I never knew he was this bad. More i watch that video the more i want h im gone.

[dangermouse]

I should note that I've been writing essays all week, I haven't slept much for three days, and I'm probably at least 25% insane at this point. I'll gladly revisit my arguments in a few days to ensure I'm not frothing mad.

Heh, sounds like some Wiz-Board procrastination to me.

LOL i thought i was the only one guilty of this... i'm a Wizboard procrastination king. Sometimes I Wizboard while im still in class.

lol A mix on Jafail Mcgee bone headed plays. http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/v ... qus_thread I never knew he was this bad. More i watch that video the more i want h im gone.

You have to take those plays with a grain of salt though. Its entertaining for sure, but they are cherry picked with an agenda in mind. He makes a lot of stupid mistakes, but he makes like 5x as many amazing plays. Those bonehead moves have given him the reputation he now has, unfortunately. I want him gone too, but for other reasons, namely his lack of improvement this year in rebounding and defense (also see: willbcock's post in the Free Agents thread).

[Nivek]

Moderately efficient may be understating things some seasons, but he's got a few in there that aren't exactly inspiring.

You list his assist totals and note his incredibly high usage, but neglect to connect the two. Melo's assist rate is absolutely mediocre. His TRB% is average, with the exception of two years when Carl was on his case about it constantly.

I'm not trying to say Melo is a bad player, but he is not a game changer. The problem is that he - and the league- believes that he is, which, call me crazy, might just be a bad thing for team chemistry.

Anthony gives you good scoring, average rebounding, average passing, and poor defense. That's one plus, two ehs, and a minus. So yeah... I'm sticking with Melo as an above average scorer and... a whole lot of hype. ^_^

You know who else you can say the same about regarding pluses and minuses? Kevin Durant, who while a more efficient scorer has a lower assist percentage, rebound percentage and higher turnover percentage with around the same usage rate. And it's not like Kevin is winning any defensive awards (though, admittedly, he's not terrible in that aspect).

Durant's offense is more valuable than Carmelo's because he's more efficient.

By offensive rating:

Code: Select all

ortg    Durant  Carmelo LgAvg
2008    100     109     107.5
2009    111     105     108.3
2010    118     110     107.6
2011    115     109     107.3
2012    114     102     103.9
Avg     111.6   107.0   106.9


Durant's 5-year AVERAGE is better than Carmelo's most efficient season (he has one other season with a 110). And that includes Durant's inefficient rookie year.

Carmelo's efficiency is okay for such a high usage player. With his skills, he could almost certainly boost his efficiency and be more valuable to his team by taking fewer bad shots. Yeah, he makes some, but he misses a lot of them too.

[truwizfan4evr]

Carmelo Anthony want out of New York. it's the same thing with Denver. He was not good enough to get the team to win so he blames it on the organization. Just face it melo you overrated and never been that good in the first place. I hope melo don't come to the wizards or we really be in bad shape with his selfish play and large contract. He is a cancer to any team he plays for and to any of the team he goes on in the future. He reminds me of Gilbert arenas and Iverson. They all kill your team chemistry.

[hands11]

Melo is not a star. He's a moderately efficient scorer and nothing else. Everyone treats him like a superstar because he can score a lot, but that's because people overvalue scoring to begin with.

He looks like one. Carries himself like one. He has the raw talent to be one, and on Team USA, put that talent on full display. Theoretical talent <<<< actual basketball contributions over a long period of time, however.

Just say it with me, then back away from the trade checker. Melo. Is. Not. A. Star.

And he's not worth trading our draft pick for.

Interesting take. There does seem to be something missing with him. Comes down to personality again. That is always the unmeasurable deciding element that way to many undervalue.

What makes Booker The Beast. It isn't just his body. What made MJ great. Same with Kobe and Nash. Physical skills are important but personality is very very important. It's what hold back Dray and McGee.

Bring in players with the right personality first if you are going to pay them a lot. Gil should have taught this team all they need to know.

[Nivek]

Carmelo Anthony want out of New York. it's the same thing with Denver. He was not good enough to get the team to win so he blames it on the organization. Just face it melo you overrated and never been that good in the first place. I hope melo don't come to the wizards or we really be in bad shape with his selfish play and large contract. He is a cancer to any team he plays for and to any of the team he goes on in the future. He reminds me of Gilbert arenas and Iverson. They all kill your team chemistry.

If he reminds you of Arenas, you need to get your memory checked. Arenas was a stone-cold offensive machine -- an uber-efficient, high-usage weapon. Hughes, Jamison, Butler all had terrific seasons playing with Gil. Deshawn Stevenson resurrected his career playing off Arenas. Gil was scoring 28+ a game, but also getting 6+ assists. And his team's offenses were terrific -- top 3-4 in the league when he was at his peak.

Now defense was an issue with Arenas, as it was with basically everyone on the roster not named Haywood.

But don't confuse the stuff that happened after Gil got hurt to what Arenas was pre-injury. Before the injury, the guy was phenomenal.

[hands11]

Ball dominate scorer. Poor defense. Questionable personality. Not a first tier star.

I think the Gil comparison is valid.

Regardless of if it was by choice, Denver got to cash in on Melo. The Wiz didn't. Denver is transitioned from Melo. The Wiz got blown up over Gil.

[Nivek]

Ball dominate scorer. Poor defense. Questionable personality. Not a first tier star.

I think the Gil comparison is valid.

Then you should get your memory checked too.

Gil shared the ball. Gil was better offensively than Carmelo.

Gil's problem was defense, not the way he played offense. Carmelo has defensive issues, and there are problems with how he plays offense.

And the stuff about Denver cashing in on Melo and the Wiz getting blown up over Gil isn't relevant. That's on management.

[sashae]

Melo is an elite scorer and a quality rebounder from the SF position. His last two years sharing the floor with another ball-dominant scoring forward in Stoudemire have insanely depressed his value. If we can get him for a "maybe" in our 1st rounder plus Rashard Lewis' corpse, how could you not do it?

[Rafael122]

Melo's value is at an all time low and there's no way he could fetch the same package Denver got for him.

[sashae]

Obviously not -- but forcing the Knicks to have to dispose of Lewis' dead body would be sweet justice.