Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 12

[Marlo Stanfield]

It's funny how everyone is saying it's ignorant when the fact is you have nothing solid to back up his ranking. Many players have been ranked highly before and have flopped, they're called draft busts. Lillard will be mediocre at best. He hasn't face anyone good to this point, explain how anything he's ever done can be used to defend his rank? Put college Bayless against those same bums Lillard faced and you guys would be jizzing your pants over an even better prospect. Bayless was ranked around the same while facing legit competition.

I'm definitely bookmarking this one for future reference.

[Undefeated]

For some reason I now have my draft preferences at 8 being Lamb or PJ3. The weird part is I may want PJ3 on this team more. I think the lack elite talent on the club has me interested in us taking a gamble.

I keep hearing that Perry Jones III has elite talent, but which part of his game says he's an offensive supernova? I just don't even see the perimeter skills from PJ3 that tells me he's going to be even an above-average wing player. Can he shoot? Yes, but not consistently, and can't really shoot off the dribble after a crossover, step-back or pull-up. Can he handle the ball? A little bit and that's in transition, but when you have a 6-foot-11 wing player handling the rock asking him to breakdown the first line that's only screaming for trouble because of his high center of gravity, so every dribble he takes, it takes longer for the ball go up and down out of his finger tips which means whoever's defending him can easily steal the ball off of him as they're pressing. Can he pass? In transition when Baylor runs their 3-man weave. I keep seeing the comparison to Paul George, but Paul George can actually create for others off the dribble with his penetration or when he's in an iso. Perry Jones III can't really do that. Honestly, where is this elite talent coming from because I don't see it from him unless we're speaking about his freak athleticism and physical gifts then yeah, but I don't consider that talent.

[RaptorReloaded]

Never ever say never ever.

[Rapsfan4life]

It's funny how everyone is saying it's ignorant when the fact is you have nothing solid to back up his ranking. Many players have been ranked highly before and have flopped, they're called draft busts. Lillard will be mediocre at best. He hasn't face anyone good to this point, explain how anything he's ever done can be used to defend his rank? Put college Bayless against those same bums Lillard faced and you guys would be jizzing your pants over an even better prospect. Bayless was ranked around the same while facing legit competition.

I'm definitely bookmarking this one for future reference.

Its funny that you have nothing solid to back up your comments saying lillard will be a bust as there have been many solid-good NBA players who have come from lower end conferences. "Lillard will be mediocre at best." Would you also like to tell me this weeks lottery numbers? "explain how anything he's ever done can be used to defend his rank" His skill, tell me what point guards in this years draft are as explosive, strong, fast, or as good of a shooter as lillard? none. The ONLY thing you can argue about lillard is his passing game, but you can also argue he had no one good to pass too. Put him on UNC and I wouldn't be surprised if he put up Ty Lawson numbers when he went there.

[Marlo Stanfield]

It's funny how everyone is saying it's ignorant when the fact is you have nothing solid to back up his ranking. Many players have been ranked highly before and have flopped, they're called draft busts. Lillard will be mediocre at best. He hasn't face anyone good to this point, explain how anything he's ever done can be used to defend his rank? Put college Bayless against those same bums Lillard faced and you guys would be jizzing your pants over an even better prospect. Bayless was ranked around the same while facing legit competition.

I'm definitely bookmarking this one for future reference.

Its funny that you have nothing solid to back up your comments saying lillard will be a bust as there have been many solid-good NBA players who have come from lower end conferences. "Lillard will be mediocre at best." Would you also like to tell me this weeks lottery numbers? "explain how anything he's ever done can be used to defend his rank" His skill, tell me what point guards in this years draft are as explosive, strong, fast, or as good of a shooter as lillard? none. The ONLY thing you can argue about lillard is his passing game, but you can also argue he had no one good to pass too. Put him on UNC and I wouldn't be surprised if he put up Ty Lawson numbers when he went there.

If he actually faced any of them I might be able to tell you something. His competition was crap, he's never played in a big game, he's never faced a real point guard (except maybe his high school career). But yeah, he's as good as Ty Lawson

[raptor jesus]

Is the hoop not 10 feet tall in the Big Sky Conference? Is Lillard going to have to adjust to smaller baskets in the NBA? Will his buttery smooth and efficient jumper not translate?

[Marlo Stanfield]

Is the hoop not 10 feet tall in the Big Sky Conference? Is Lillard going to have to adjust to smaller baskets in the NBA? Will his buttery smooth and efficient jumper not translate?

Worst...logic...ever... I'm a driveway superstar against my boys on my 10 foot hoop too. The difference is, NBA COMPETITION IS ON ANOTHER LEVEL!

Enough of these Lillard trolls. Let's just wait and see. If I'm wrong I'll gladly eat that tasty crow, but I won't be.

[deeps6x]

To all who want Lillard; stop sniffing those bath salts. The guy will be mediocre in the NBA. He's never faced real competition and the NBA will be not just one level up like most guys who come out of division 1 schools, but two or more levels. I need you to trust me on this one, say NO to Damien Lillard. I wouldn't mind him if we're picking 20 or late, but at 8? C'mon son... c'mon.

Sorry, that's pretty ignorant man. Paul Milsap probably had the same questions. Same as Rodney Stuckey. Kurt Thomas went to TCU. There are lots of players who make the league and produce out of smaller schools.

For every Paul Millsap, Rodney Stuckey and Kurt Thomas there are 100 no name busts we've never heard of. As a matter of fact, don't even include Millsap and Thomas in there. Both of them were the leading rebounders in the country the years they came out. Rebounding is the most translatable NBA skill, and people knew they'd at least get guys who would be solid on the glass. People will probably think I'm lying, but I thought Millsap would be good in the NBA. I didn't know how good, but I was surprised he dropped.

I agree with your comments about Lillard. Not worthy of the 8th pick. Sadly, won't be around by the time of our next pick.

[Double Helix]

It's funny how everyone is saying it's ignorant when the fact is you have nothing solid to back up his ranking. Many players have been ranked highly before and have flopped, they're called draft busts. Lillard will be mediocre at best. He hasn't face anyone good to this point, explain how anything he's ever done can be used to defend his rank? Put college Bayless against those same bums Lillard faced and you guys would be jizzing your pants over an even better prospect. Bayless was ranked around the same while facing legit competition.

I'm definitely bookmarking this one for future reference.

Its funny that you have nothing solid to back up your comments saying lillard will be a bust as there have been many solid-good NBA players who have come from lower end conferences. "Lillard will be mediocre at best." Would you also like to tell me this weeks lottery numbers? "explain how anything he's ever done can be used to defend his rank" His skill, tell me what point guards in this years draft are as explosive, strong, fast, or as good of a shooter as lillard? none. The ONLY thing you can argue about lillard is his passing game, but you can also argue he had no one good to pass too. Put him on UNC and I wouldn't be surprised if he put up Ty Lawson numbers when he went there.

If he actually faced any of them I might be able to tell you something. His competition was crap, he's never played in a big game, he's never faced a real point guard (except maybe his high school career). But yeah, he's as good as Ty Lawson

Only a fool expects his Big Sky numbers to translate over to NBA dominance. Rodney Stuckey averaged 30ppg in that league and now scores around 15ppg/5apg and has a PER of 17.6 and 18.4 the past 2 seasons. Those are respectable numbers for a combo guard but clearly Stuckey had an adjustment to make and is nowhere near as dominant in the NBA as he was at the Big Sky. That's pretty much a given, I hope. I'm certainly not expecting 25ppg from Lillard! All that said... Lillard has a more defined position waiting for him, I think, than Stuckey did. Lillard also has a great head on his shoulders and an unparallelled work ethic and knowledge of the game. I don't see a PG superstar but perhaps a lesser Jay Willliams (Had he not been hurt) is within his reach.

Shooters can shoot anywhere so long as their shot mechanics aren't rushed and they're tall enough at their position to get their shot off. Lillard's height isn't an issue at the PG spot so he'll get his shot off without issue and his metrics for years have been excellent. There's very little reason to think his shooting skill won't translate somewhat to the next level. There aren't a ton of guards that are knock down shooters from deep, from mid-range, and from the free throw line.

He's got good height, athleticism, speed and body control for the PG spot.

He had a ton of usage and rarely turned the ball over. In fact, I read somewhere that his turnover % was one of the lowest in the country. That bodes well for his maturation as a PG at the next level, especially when you consider the amount of double teams he faced and the pressure he received as being so clearly that team's best player.

While many of the players he played against don't have the talent to be NBA players or even euroleague players... defence is as much about hustle and coaching as it is talent, especially at the PG spot. The double-teams he's faced consistently were still being lead by relatively athletic guys hellbent on trying to stop him. I'll admit that the "giants" he was driving into are going to be a lot bigger and better and that he won't be able to attack as much but he also won't be seeing doubles in the NBA so that's got to open things up for him a bit and he does seem to have a solid arsenal of shots in traffic. I'm more concerned with the fact that he hasn't been able to guard anybody good rather than whether he has what it takes to break down an NBA defence himself.

He's not my pick at 8 and I've explained why but I think you're underselling him and I don't think he'll be a scrub at the next level. I think he'll be an above average PG, especially after watching another hard working PG like Isiah Thomas transition nicely to the pros with worse tools.

[JN]

Has anybody even seen any studies comparing the career performance of players selected outside of the power conferences vs those in power conferences (and not good programs either in non power conferences -- not talking the Gonzaga's of recent years, Memphis, Utah, UNLV type picks, or Camby at the time when UMASS and the A-10 were strong). But teams like Weber St would certainly be included.

I was thinking of comparing the career WAR's of players drafted since 1993 vs four players in each individual case. The four players would be the two preceeding picks from top programs, and the two next picks. Then building up such overall data.

I was going to start in 1993 because I would understand the scope of what is in/out by then and there would be judgment of who is in sample.

For example in 1993 a player from BYU, UNLV and Cincy would not be included -- those were good schools in decent conferences. But picks from Hartford, Jackson St and New Orleans certainly would. Those were all from conferences in the bottom half or close to it at the time.

In 1994 I would exclude Xavier, Temple, George Washingotn (A-10 was really strong at the time), but I would include Tennessee St and UMKC.

Just wondering if its worth my time, or if there is already data out there.

[Aidin]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAYGLih7pKY[/youtube]
Jeremy Lamb Interview Post-New Orleans Hornets Workout.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_rH_yq1pI[/youtube]
Terrence Ross Interview Post-New Orleans Hornets Workout.

[GP2]

Combine starts in 2 days. Will they be playing it on NBA TV Canada?

[raptor jesus]

Is the hoop not 10 feet tall in the Big Sky Conference? Is Lillard going to have to adjust to smaller baskets in the NBA? Will his buttery smooth and efficient jumper not translate?

Worst...logic...ever... I'm a driveway superstar against my boys on my 10 foot hoop too. The difference is, NBA COMPETITION IS ON ANOTHER LEVEL!

Enough of these Lillard trolls. Let's just wait and see. If I'm wrong I'll gladly eat that tasty crow, but I won't be.

Lillard has all the physical tools, basketball fundamentals and mental makeup to be a solid contributor at the next level. Your argument is based on strength of conference. By that logic, we should be looking at guys like Jordan Taylor and Robbie Hummel.

[tdotrep2]

If lillard but those numbers up at duke he would be going 2 come draft day, but since he didn't his stock drops to the 6-10 range which is fair. Does anyone know his numbers against school that are considered to have good defense?

[DG88]

Here's a good read on Lillard, seems the Raptors have called his college coach about him and they look interested

Rahe said that Portland, which has the Nos. 6 and 11 picks, has been calling quite often. Utah, which doesn't have a first-round selection, would love to find a way to get involved. Rahe said he has talked to Cleveland, although the Cavaliers already have Kyrie Irving, so selecting Lillard may not make as much sense at No. 4, which is also deemed too high for Lillard to get drafted. Golden State, which has the No. 7 pick, has also called Rahe. That might be a starting point for him, but the latest team that Rahe has heard from is Toronto, which picks at No. 8.

Lillard, listed as a junior athletically, redshirted during his normal junior year after playing in only nine games. He technically was an early entry, but was in his fourth year of school.

"The thing about Damian is that he's obsessed with improving his weaknesses,'' Rahe said. "He's got such a great sense of his maturity. Every year, he would be in the gym and work on what his weaknesses were.

"He was a scorer when we got him, and he couldn't run off a stagger screen to catch and shoot it,'' Rahe said. "Then it was his middle game. That was important to him and [he] worked on that, too, as well as his pick-and-roll offense. He worked on all of that. He takes the weaknesses and becomes obsessed with it. He never thinks he's good enough. It drives him crazy.''

Lillard is a prime example of how a player can go to a school off the main basketball grid, develop his game and become a lottery pick. Lillard did this while winning at Weber State, but he couldn't get to the NCAA tournament to entertain the masses and build on his credibility. Norfolk State's Kyle O'Quinn is a hot name because of his performance (26 points, 14 rebounds) in an upset of Missouri in the opening round of the NCAA tournament

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... basketball

[Marlo Stanfield]

Is the hoop not 10 feet tall in the Big Sky Conference? Is Lillard going to have to adjust to smaller baskets in the NBA? Will his buttery smooth and efficient jumper not translate?

Worst...logic...ever... I'm a driveway superstar against my boys on my 10 foot hoop too. The difference is, NBA COMPETITION IS ON ANOTHER LEVEL!

Enough of these Lillard trolls. Let's just wait and see. If I'm wrong I'll gladly eat that tasty crow, but I won't be.

Lillard has all the physical tools, basketball fundamentals and mental makeup to be a solid contributor at the next level. Your argument is based on strength of conference. By that logic, we should be looking at guys like Jordan Taylor and Robbie Hummel.

Stop twisting words and make a good point for once. The argument on strength of conference also needs to be coupled with common sense. It's pretty obvious no one is talking about Taylor or Hummel.

And to be clear, I never said Lillard would be a scrub, I said he would be mediocre. Meaning a guy who might average Mo Williams numbers at his peak, but ultimately ends up being a good bench player when his career plays out.

[raptor jesus]

Like Double Helix pointed out, nobody should realistically expect his stats to translate, exactly. The intrigue is his total package (mental, physical and basketball skills). I think he'll be better, but Mo Williams was a fringe all-star for a few seasons and actually made an all-star team, IIRC. That's pretty good value at 8, if you look at the recent history of 8th overall selections.

[DA_SCOUT]

Asked before, but could someone please tell me what Ford says about the Raptors in his Mock Draft 6.0?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft201 ... -version-6

Btw Marlo I usually agree with you, but I really have no idea where you're going or planning on going with this Lillard argument. The kid hasn't played one game in the NBA and you're already labelling him as a mediocre player at best. I don't think Mo Williams is mediocre, he's above average if anything in this league. Also anyone could be called mediocre before playing a game in the NBA, I really don't understand your theory. I feel he'll be a great player, to me Raymond Felton is a great player..So whats not to like? You can't get a Kyrie Irving at 8 bud, plus he's all about getting better. Having watched Michael Jordan's hall of fame speech last night, its a good characteristic to have.. hunger to be better.

[JN]

If lillard but those numbers up at duke he would be going 2 come draft day, but since he didn't his stock drops to the 6-10 range which is fair. Does anyone know his numbers against school that are considered to have good defense?

Based on KenPom rankings these were the only good defensive teams that Weber St played in 2012.

23 BYU
28 Cal

St Mary's was a good team, but their defence was ranked #93 which cannot qualify as a good defence.

In those two games, Lillard did the following:
14.5 PPG AVG
9-29 FG (31%)
4-14 3PT (29%)
6.5 REB
2.5 AST
1.5 TO

Small sample size. So don't want to use it against him.... but its certainly not a positive!!

Comparitively a player like Lamb played 14 games against top 40 defences, which is a very high number. Even average teams like Fairfield and Tennessee had good defences.

1 Louisville
7 Georgetown
13 South Florida
14 Marquette
15 Florida St
17 Syracuse (3X)
24 Cincy
29 Fairfield
31 Seton Hall (2X)
37 Harvard
38 Tennessee

In those 14 games Lamb averaged 17 points per game, and shot 48% -- I know earlier when I looked at top 25 overall teams (about half of those above games)his stats fell alot, but if you start to add some of those good defensive teams like the Hall, USF, Fairfield, Tennessee... they end up getting very close to his season averages.

[bboyskinnylegs]

All three of Fournier, Satoransky, and Van Oostrum will be participating in the Reebok Eurocamp between June 10-12.