2012 NBA Draft - Part V

[TGW]

If anything, I think Wall is more likely to bust with a non-floor-spacer like MKG beside him. Wall needs to develop some confidence in his teammates or he'll never become the true PG he needs to be. Adding a knockdown shooter and a floor spacer like Beal will help Wall more than adding a vocal leader with a broken shot like MKG will.

Sorry Nate, but this is a poor argument. Wall will likely bust because his teammates can't shoot? That's like saying a guy will be a bust because his teammates can't pass and therefore he's likely to ballhog more. If Wall becomes a bust, it will be because he didn't put in the work to improve his own jumpshot. It won't be because his teammates can't shoot.

[Upper Decker]

When you weed out the Andre Drummonds (who demonstratively have poor work ethics) of the NBA draft and compare all the top prospects you'll see they ALL have great work ethics and great intangibles. Separating one from the other is virtually impossible, as such, it's fluff to say MKG is a better prospect than Beal because his work ethic BECAUSE we don't know for certain his lauded intangibles are superior than Beal’s. From what I see, Beal is just as intense as MKG on the floor, Beal lead his team in rebounding (a hustle stat), and Beal has validated his work ethic by having a refined shot. If MKG’s work ethic is as great as everyone says it is why isn’t his body fat % lower than Beals? Why isn’t his shooting form not more refined? I’m not saying he doesn’t have good intangibles, but it’s a weak argument to say he’s clearly a better prospect because he tries harder—they all try hard, they have to to get to this point.

In general, I agree with you, but it's ironic that you use body fat % as the criteria for whether a player tries hard after you just called out Drummond for having demonstrably poor work ethic - and Drummond scored a very low body fat % for a guy his size.

Not sure what leads people to believe Drummond has a poor work ethic. Can't blame people for questioing his demeanor on he court, but he's 18 y/o. Most of the big men prospects in draft were raw as a Fr.

Perhaps the more appropriate term with Drummond should have been *intangibles*, not work ethic.

[sfam]

to make blanket statement about the metrics used by a leading edge simulation game is silly. I would try to keep from embarassing myself until i was able to make a solid argument as to why the metrics used in nba2k12 don't related to a players actual ability in real life. show an understanding for categories that used to determine a players rating. So again how many categories is each player rated in would be where i would start before showing my lack of knowledge i am using to draw a solid conclusion like "silly".

WizD, I almost never comment on your posts, or finish reading the long ones, because frankly, I rarely have any idea what you're trying to say. Case in point above. Are you trying to ask Nivek in a not so polite manner if he would explain (yet again) his YODA system? If so, perhaps a simpler method would be, "Hey Nivek, can you explain the basis for your YODA system?" Again, we all love to be snarky on occasion, but its usually a good idea to write snark in a way that people understand - I would suggest complete sentences as a start. Personally, this would help me to understand better how "show an understanding for categories that used to determine a players rating" relates to the statements prior to and afterwards. It might also be a good idea to capture the portion you're responding to above as a reply (feel free to cut out the extraneous parts).

Just a thought - feel free to ignore if you like, as chances are I'll continue to ignore your posts if you don't.

[nate33]

If anything, I think Wall is more likely to bust with a non-floor-spacer like MKG beside him. Wall needs to develop some confidence in his teammates or he'll never become the true PG he needs to be. Adding a knockdown shooter and a floor spacer like Beal will help Wall more than adding a vocal leader with a broken shot like MKG will.

Sorry Nate, but this is a poor argument. Wall will likely bust because his teammates can't shoot? That's like saying a guy will be a bust because his teammates can't pass and therefore he's likely to ballhog more. If Wall becomes a bust, it will be because he didn't put in the work to improve his own jumpshot. It won't be because his teammates can't shoot.

I think it's a very good argument. You don't think Wall is likely to develop bad habits because he doesn't trust his teammates to hit open shots? You don't think the game would come easier to Wall if opponents didn't always pack the lane?

I think these factors are much more important to Wall's development than adding an 18-year-old kid who is supposed to teach Wall to work harder in the offseason.

[Mizerooskie]

Comparing MKG to Marvin Willaims, big gaps in bold.

........

How about a comparison with a guy that was touted as a future lockdown defender last year?

Wingspan
MKG 7'0
Chris Singleton 7'1

Standing Reach
MKG 8'8.5
CS 8'7.5

NS Vert
MKG 32.0
CS 30.5

Max Vert
MKG 35.5
CS 37.5

Bench Press
MKG 6
CS 15

Lane Agility
MKG 11.77
CS 11.33

Sprint
MKG 3.18
CS 3.09

So MKG had an inch advantage in standing reach, and and inch and a half in no step vertical. Singleton tested better in every other category.

[sfam]

If anything, I think Wall is more likely to bust with a non-floor-spacer like MKG beside him. Wall needs to develop some confidence in his teammates or he'll never become the true PG he needs to be. Adding a knockdown shooter and a floor spacer like Beal will help Wall more than adding a vocal leader with a broken shot like MKG will.

Sorry Nate, but this is a poor argument. Wall will likely bust because his teammates can't shoot? That's like saying a guy will be a bust because his teammates can't pass and therefore he's likely to ballhog more. If Wall becomes a bust, it will be because he didn't put in the work to improve his own jumpshot. It won't be because his teammates can't shoot.

Nate's argument makes sense from the perspective that Wall clearly got frustrated last year when he lost confidence in his team mates and basically played hero-ball by driving even when his lanes were cut off. Sure, he totally needs to develop his shot regardless, but then his hero ball antics would only be better in that he would be dropping long crappy shots along with poorly decided drives. If Wall has confidence in his team mates, his drives start having more purpose - he goes into the lane with the idea of passing first. More confidence in his team mates will definitely develop his leadership and decision making faster.

Bottom line, if we draft MKG, it is pretty critical that we also find an awesome vet shotmaker at SG this season.

[WallTown02]

Long-time lurker here…

I’ll start out saying I’d be really happy with Beal. I think he’ll be a top SG in time and a perfect fit next to Wall. When it was announced that we’re picking third, he was my #1 choice because I figured it was a no brainer of 1) Davis and 2) MKG. However, if Charlotte took someone else, then I think MKG has to be the pick. I’d even trade up to #2 to get him if possible.

A recent Grantland article (The Exchange: Gladwell vs. Simmons IV) posted this quote from Keyon Dooling about KG.

“He's incredible. I guarantee you if you did a poll of everybody who has played with Kevin Garnett, I guarantee you he would probably be 98% of people's favorite teammate. He is that guy. He's the glue. If somebody is not going well, he's the guy to pick him up. If there's a problem, he's the one to address it. If somebody needs to be taken up for, he's the one to do that, if there's a question that needs to be asked and somebody doesn't want to ask it, he does that. He is amazing … I guarantee you if you went around the locker room, everybody who has been around him, ask his former teammates, he is incredible, man. He is an incredible man. He should get awards every year for the man, the mentorship he gives to young guys, the work ethic that he shows them and instills in them. The camaraderie that he gives to the team. You know what I mean? The way he embraces everybody on the staff from the video coordinator to the masseuse. Kevin Garnett should be an ambassador. He is that kind of personality. He is amazing.”

When I was reading this article, MKG immediately came to mind. I really think his intangibles (desire, leadership, and work ethic) are extremely rare. Regardless of his jump shot, I think these factors are what give him the potential to be a superstar at the next level.

Everybody focuses on his jump shot and fit with Wall. I keep hearing references to Durant, Westbrook and Harden. What about the other team in the finals? The team with arguably the greatest player on the planet right now? If the Heat win the finals this year, it will be because LeBron finally takes over. And LeBron taking over does not involve jumpshots. LeBron is finally learning that he HAS to take it to the rim to win. The Thunder are praying that he’ll shoot jumpers. His success is due to driving and posting up.

Back to the Heat’s team. Obviously they will have both LeBron and Wade on the court together the majority of the time. Both LeBron and Wade are better shooters than Wall and MKG right now. However, they are at their best when they are attacking the rim. They’ll also often have a big like Anthony that isn’t a shooter. So they’ll have a shooting wing and a stretch 4 (mid-range – not threes).

The wizards could play a similar style. Having deadly three point shooters at the 2 would be mandatory. But that’s not hard to get. Nene has a proven mid-range shot. Both Booker and Seraphin look like they will as well.

Also, at times we could go small with MKG at the 4, and add another shooter, like the Heat do with LeBron.

Ok, my rant has gone on long enough. But I just truly believe that MKG has superstar potential and that his lack of shooting is overrated. I think that we (and Charlotte) would have big time regrets passing on him.

[Dark Faze]

I have nothing against Beal but he doesn't bring those things. He'll work hard, he'll bring leadership, but he's not in MKG's class there. Look at the stats: Was inferior to EG, Wade and Harden in terms of scoring and FG%. He was a good rebounder, that can't be debated.

Why dont you post some statistical comparisons between MKG and current NBA players?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compar ... e-iguodala

Comparing him to Iggy, G. Wallace, Marion and Artests freshmen college campaigns.

MKG had better FG percentages and offensive ratings than anyone but Shawn Marion, who was a stud (and btw was maybe the second biggest reason why Miami lost to Dallas despite him having no jumpshot whatsoever).

MKG drew SIGNIFICANTLY more free throws than everyone of these guys.

3Point percentage? None of them were good shooters from range but he was a little worse than Marion and Artest, which sounds about right, and significantly better than Iggy and Wallace were.

Shawn Marion had a .7 percent better true shooting percentage. .57.7 Shawn Marion was also a much better rebounder than MKG but MKG was much better than everyone else, also MKG played with Davis and Terrence Jones, who are good rebounders.

So basically he compares favorably to proven all-stars, a guy who won a chip and he's arguably got a lot more fire than any of them possessed.

People describe MKG as if he is an overachieving, high motor/hustle player. He can't shoot. What skill does he have?

Look above ^

[Mizerooskie]

And that bit about KG being everyone's favorite teammate would be pretty meaningless if he didn't have a boatload of skill. Not to mention, KG is 4+ inches taller than MKG.

I don't get the point of the comparison.

[WallTown02]

And that bit about KG being everyone's favorite teammate would be pretty meaningless if he didn't have a boatload of skill. Not to mention, KG is 4+ inches taller than MKG.

I don't get the point of the comparison.

The comp had nothing to do with skill. It was all about intangibles.

Also, the kid is 18. He has plenty of time to learn skill.

[Mizerooskie]

Comparing him to Iggy, G. Wallace, Marion and Artests freshmen college campaigns.

MKG had better FG percentages and offensive ratings than anyone but Shawn Marion, who was a stud (and btw was maybe the second biggest reason why Miami lost to Dallas despite him having no jumpshot whatsoever).

MKG drew SIGNIFICANTLY more free throws than everyone of these guys.

3Point percentage? None of them were good shooters from range but he was a little worse than Marion and Artest, which sounds about right, and significantly better than Iggy and Wallace were.

Shawn Marion had a .7 percent better true shooting percentage. .57.7 Shawn Marion was also a much better rebounder than MKG but MKG was much better than everyone else, also MKG played with Davis and Terrence Jones, who are good rebounders.

So basically he compares favorably to proven all-stars, a guy who won a chip and he's arguably got a lot more fire than any of them possessed.
^

Again, you're painting an incredibly biased picture.

FT ATT/40

MKG 6
Iguadola 6
Marion 5
Wallace 8
Artest 5

So MKG didn't get to the line more than Iggy or Wallace, and only got one attempt more per game than Marion and Artest

[Mizerooskie]

And that bit about KG being everyone's favorite teammate would be pretty meaningless if he didn't have a boatload of skill. Not to mention, KG is 4+ inches taller than MKG.

I don't get the point of the comparison.

The comp had nothing to do with skill. It was all about intangibles.

Also, the kid is 18. He has plenty of time to learn skill.

Maurice Evans is renowned for his intangibles.

And you don't learn skill, IMO. It's innate ability.

You learn technique and consistency.

[sfam]

And that bit about KG being everyone's favorite teammate would be pretty meaningless if he didn't have a boatload of skill. Not to mention, KG is 4+ inches taller than MKG.

I don't get the point of the comparison.

The comp had nothing to do with skill. It was all about intangibles.

I get the analogy and agree with it. This is why MKG is at the top of the draft. He will make players around him better. Even Wall. When Wall goes on one of his rants, we would expect MKG to ground him better (MKG is the team mate bromance version of "He completes me!"). But again, if you're choosing MKG this high, you really are in essence saying emphatically that you think he's going to be able to fix his shot. Otherwise, its just not worth this high a pick I think. You basically are taking on a higher risk than Beal or Robinson, without necessary a significantly higher upside.

[tontoz]

3Point percentage? None of them were good shooters from range but he was a little worse than Marion and Artest, which sounds about right, and significantly better than Iggy and Wallace were.

So the 7% difference between Artest and MKG was a little but the 5% difference betwen MKG and Iggy was significant?

[WallTown02]

And that bit about KG being everyone's favorite teammate would be pretty meaningless if he didn't have a boatload of skill. Not to mention, KG is 4+ inches taller than MKG.

I don't get the point of the comparison.

The comp had nothing to do with skill. It was all about intangibles.

I get the analogy and agree with it. This is why MKG is at the top of the draft. He will make players around him better. Even Wall. When Wall goes on one of his rants, we would expect MKG to ground him better (MKG is the team mate bromance version of "He completes me!"). But again, if you're choosing MKG this high, you really are in essence saying emphatically that you think he's going to be able to fix his shot. Otherwise, its just not worth this high a pick I think. You basically are taking on a higher risk than Beal or Robinson, without necessary a significantly higher upside.

I think he'll improve his shot. But does it really matter all that much? LeBron has improved his shot over the years, but shooting jumpers isn't going to win him a ring.

Also, just my opinion, but I believe that MKG has significantly higher upside than both Beal and Robinson.

[Mizerooskie]

I think he'll improve his shot. But does it really matter all that much? LeBron has improved his shot over the years, but shooting jumpers isn't going to win him a ring.

Also, just my opinion, but I believe that MKG has significantly higher upside than both Beal and Robinson.

Based on what?

By all accounts, Beal and Robinson have outstanding intangibles.

[Dark Faze]

And that bit about KG being everyone's favorite teammate would be pretty meaningless if he didn't have a boatload of skill. Not to mention, KG is 4+ inches taller than MKG.

I don't get the point of the comparison.

The comp had nothing to do with skill. It was all about intangibles.

I get the analogy and agree with it. This is why MKG is at the top of the draft. He will make players around him better. Even Wall. When Wall goes on one of his rants, we would expect MKG to ground him better (MKG is the team mate bromance version of "He completes me!"). But again, if you're choosing MKG this high, you really are in essence saying emphatically that you think he's going to be able to fix his shot. Otherwise, its just not worth this high a pick I think. You basically are taking on a higher risk than Beal or Robinson, without necessary a significantly higher upside.

I don't understand why he has to fix his shot in order to be picked this high. Look how Shawn Marion smacked LeBron James around in the finals. Robinson isn't anywhere close to a guarantee to be a 20-10 player. He inflated his offensive stats by being a better athlete than everyone he faced in college. It's not going to happen in the NBA. He lacks offensive skills. His only elite NBA skill is rebounding.

There isn't any evidence that Beal will be an elite offensive talent. I mean everyone's talking about shooting based completely on his form. Let me reiterate his numbers: 44 % from the field and 34% from 3. Wall'esque. Jordan Crawford is blushing.

[Jay81]

We need skilled players....we have enough athletes lacking in the skill dept(john wall). Kyrie Irving dosnet have the tools of John Wall but right now he is a better player because he is more skilled

[Mizerooskie]

I don't understand why he has to fix his shot in order to be picked this high. Look how Shawn Marion smacked LeBron James around in the finals. Robinson isn't anywhere close to a guarantee to be a 20-10 player. He inflated his offensive stats by being a better athlete than everyone he faced in college. It's not going to happen in the NBA. He lacks offensive skills. His only elite NBA skill is rebounding.

There isn't any evidence that Beal will be an elite offensive talent. I mean everyone's talking about shooting based completely on his form. Let me reiterate his numbers: 44 % from the field and 34% from 3. Wall'esque. Jordan Crawford is blushing.

*Sigh*

What was MKG doing at UK? What's his elite NBA skill?

[tontoz]

Comparing MKG to guys like Lebron and KG is really ridiculous.