SixerFan1976 Offseason Thread (Update Pg 73)

Numb3rs · Post #1561 » by **Numb3rs** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:35 pm

IMO Hawes biggest problem is Thad. He is fine playing minutes with Brand but Thad and Hawes simply give up too much defensively.

Given the minutes Hawes can produce, in the 9 games he played over 30 mins this season he averaged 12-9-4.

PhilasFinest · Post #1562 » by **PhilasFinest** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:37 pm

I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

The Sixer Fixer · Post #1563 » by **The Sixer Fixer** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:40 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

Of course you don't, it puts a hold in your theory. People always hate stats when they don't support an argument.

Kobblehead · Post #1564 » by **Kobblehead** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:40 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

This. The only way to correctly judge someone's rebounding ability is to check their rebounding percentage. Hawes at 16.3 TRP is right around 20-25th in the NBA rank. Which is very disappointing given his 7'1" frame.

PhilasFinest · Post #1565 » by **PhilasFinest** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:41 pm

Numb3rs wrote:IMO Hawes biggest problem is Thad. He is fine playing minutes with Brand but Thad and Hawes simply give up too much defensively.

Given the minutes Hawes can produce, in the 9 games he played over 30 mins this season he averaged 12-9-4.

I agree Hawes being paired with a aged EB and tweener in Thad doesnt exactly make things easy for him. If he had a good rebounding big man at the 4 next to him, maybe he'd get a few more easy looks.

That being said, producing stats given more minutes n Impacting the game are 2 different things.

EugeneBWhitaker · Post #1566 » by **EugeneBWhitaker** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:45 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:
Our team was horrendous at rebounding this year and our best rebounder was a shooting guard.
Anyone that is 7 foot tall with extended minutes could do this.
.

This is just plain wrong, the sixers were not horrendous at rebounding this season, if i recall correctly they were the sixth best defensive rebounding team in the regular season. Offensive rebounding not as good (but also not as important to me as defensive)

The sixers did quite well on the defensive glass in the regular season WITH a horrible front court, think about how they'd do with good rebounders, just one of them.

And no, I don't use counting stats to determine who was a good rebounding team, because they're useless. Use rebounding percentage, because that's what matters.

The sixers were bad at some things this year (worst at drawing ft's I think) but rebounding was NOT one of them and people shouldn't perpetuate the myth that they were, it's disingenuous

PhilasFinest · Post #1567 » by **PhilasFinest** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:45 pm

The Sixer Fixer wrote:
PhilasFinest wrote:I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

Of course you don't, it puts a hold in your theory. People always hate stats when they don't support an argument.

Im not arguing anything. I'm simply debating/ speaking about how I think Hawes is not a quality starting center on a winning basketball team.

If you wanna expand Hawes' stats throughout 48 minutes. Go for it.

But when I watch actual games, he does NOT impact the game. Especially on the glass.

EugeneBWhitaker · Post #1568 » by **EugeneBWhitaker** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:46 pm

The Sixer Fixer wrote:
PhilasFinest wrote:I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

Of course you don't, it puts a hold in your theory. People always hate stats when they don't support an argument.

Counting stats are terrible, Statistics are used incorrectly constantly by people who don't understand them

Rebounding is a team thing, so what matters is how the team rebounds, and the sixers rebounded fine last year.

It is like folks who want to use ppg to evaluate a player and ignore things like the TS% (no not FG%, that is weak too)

EugeneBWhitaker · Post #1569 » by **EugeneBWhitaker** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:47 pm

It seems that the excuse makers have moved on from Evan Turner and on to Spencer Hawes?

How many games did Hawes miss and the sixers were still a good rebounding team?

I know at least one long term dedicated obsessed sixer fan who will quit the team if Hawes is re-signed, and I can't blame him.

Kobblehead · Post #1570 » by **Kobblehead** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:47 pm

Good s*** Eugene. I agree completely. Those extended minutes projection stats are among the most fraudulent things in sports.

EugeneBWhitaker · Post #1571 » by **EugeneBWhitaker** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Good s*** Eugene. I agree completely. Those extended minutes projection stats are among the most fraudulent things in sports.

Counting stats in basketball are usually not the best thing to use in general.

Per 48 minute stats (per 36 is what B-R) uses are only useful if you want to compare production of counting stats between two vastly different 'used' players - for instance, Lou Williams and Monta Ellis.

But there are better, more intelligent ways to compare two such players.

The Sixer Fixer · Post #1572 » by **The Sixer Fixer** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
PhilasFinest wrote:I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

This. The only way to correctly judge someone's rebounding ability is to check their rebounding percentage. Hawes at 16.3 TRP is right around 20-25th in the NBA rank. Which is very disappointing given his 7'1" frame.

He falls basically into the same grouping of guys I posted based on that criteria. Not sure how that changes the fact that he still better with the stat, that MANY other guys that people here would consider "good" rebounders.

Kobblehead · Post #1573 » by **Kobblehead** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:52 pm

The Sixer Fixer wrote:
Kobblehead wrote:
PhilasFinest wrote:I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

This. The only way to correctly judge someone's rebounding ability is to check their rebounding percentage. Hawes at 16.3 TRP is right around 20-25th in the NBA rank. Which is very disappointing given his 7'1" frame.

He falls basically into the same grouping of guys I posted based on that criteria. Not sure how that changes the fact that he still better with the stat, that MANY other guys that people here would consider "good" rebounders.

Well anyone who calls Spencer Hawes a bad rebounder doesn't know what he's talking about. Not sure why you're even addressing them. He's a decent defensive rebounder. Everyone that had watched the Sixers realizes this.

EugeneBWhitaker · Post #1574 » by **EugeneBWhitaker** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:52 pm

Kobblehead wrote:This. The only way to correctly judge someone's rebounding ability is to check their rebounding percentage. Hawes at 16.3 TRP is right around 20-25th in the NBA rank. Which is very disappointing given his 7'1" frame.

Not really ideal either as the TRP is more a measure of the team performance while Hawes is on the floor. NBA statistical analysis is a bit behind on the 'individual' contribution of a given team event, but that's mostly because it has to be. It is not as simple as baseball to evaluate an individual in basketball. It is all intertwined and interactive. In baseball it's hitter vs pitcher - fielder vs ball - there aren't 10 individuals involved in 1 event like there can be in basketball.

The technology exists to better evaluate basketball, but the costs and manpower would probably be prohibitive.

82 games on off stats are sometimes helpful but also not ideal due to the fact that they are a bit simplistic out of necessity

EugeneBWhitaker · Post #1575 » by **EugeneBWhitaker** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:53 pm

I have reasons for not wanting Spencer Hawes on the sixers, not all of them have to do with basketball

The Sixer Fixer · Post #1576 » by **The Sixer Fixer** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:54 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:
The Sixer Fixer wrote:
PhilasFinest wrote:I can't stand the per 48 stat. It almost never translates to on court performance.

Of course you don't, it puts a hold in your theory. People always hate stats when they don't support an argument.

Im not arguing anything. I'm simply debating/ speaking about how I think Hawes is not a quality starting center on a winning basketball team.

If you wanna expand Hawes' stats throughout 48 minutes. Go for it.

But when I watch actual games, he does NOT impact the game. Especially on the glass.

I posted them on a per36 min basis a few weeks back when comparing him to some people here want to spend the max on (Hibbert/McGee). He was almost identical to them in that regard too. I could take it down to 30 MPG....how far do we need to go to prove that he's right there with other "good" rebounders? I'm told to use Rebound Percentage...so I do, and I find again, he's almost identical or better than Al Jefferson, Hibbert, P. Gasol, Garnett, Millsap, M. Gasol, Aldridge, etc.

The Sixer Fixer · Post #1577 » by **The Sixer Fixer** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:59 pm

I'm not trying to support bringing Hawes back with my posts, but I am trying to dispel the idea that Hawes is a bad rebounder. He's right there with many of the other guys people think are upgrades for us in that area. My issue with Hawes go beyond rebounding. I just don't like jump shooting centers typically. I prefer him to play in the post, but that's obviously not his game. I prefer my bigs to be athletic....mainly mobile. You need bigs who can defend the P&R and recover quickly....guys who have quick feet to stop dribble penetration....guys who can come out of no where to occassionaly block a shot. Hawes isn't any of that stuff.

PhilasFinest · Post #1578 » by **PhilasFinest** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:01 pm

IMO As a whole the Sixers team rebounded average, i was exaggerating when i said "horrendous" simply because i was using it in the same sentence to describe sepncer hawes.

If we're talking stats, the Sixers rebounding differential Was -.59 which was 19th in the league, which was average. I blame our weaknesses on Hawes and our front court.

If we added a solid rebounding big to the roster, our rebounding would likely be amongst the top 10 in the league simply due to the fact that our perimeter players (Evan Jrue Iggy) are amongst the top for there position.

PhilasFinest · Post #1579 » by **PhilasFinest** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:03 pm

Amongst all this wonderful debate, I believe we've accomplished 1 thing.

We need a athletic big man who can rebound in the worst way. Whether he's playing next to Hawes or Vuc or someone else is TBD. Either way we need to improve our front court big time.

EugeneBWhitaker · Post #1580 » by **EugeneBWhitaker** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:06 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:IMO As a whole the Sixers team rebounded average, i was exaggerating when i said "horrendous" simply because i was using it in the same sentence to describe sepncer hawes.

If we're talking stats, the Sixers rebounding differential Was -.59 which was 19th in the league, which was average. I blame our weaknesses on Hawes and our front court.

If we added a solid rebounding big to the roster, our rebounding would likely be amongst the top 10 in the league simply due to the fact that our perimeter players (Evan Jrue Iggy) are amongst the top for there position.

And in my opinion, you're just flat out wrong, and using the wrong information to do it.

It is not about rebound differential, it is about how many of the available rebounds does a team get.

And defensive and offensive rebounding are separate issues (in my opinion)

And the sixers were not 'average' in rebounding defensively, they were one of the top teams in the league at defensive rebounding

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/ ... asontype/2

Look at the percentages, not the counting stats