2011-12 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[MisterWestside]

So, either the reality is wrong here or you just made up things in order to prop up your favorite player.

Like I said mystic, the numbers he used doesn't account for 1) Kobe's volume shooting, which can take away from better scoring opportunities for his team (shot creation IS valuable, but it can also be a detriment especially if you're preventing two capable 7-footers from working in the post) and 2) his matador defense.

Also a good post by dzra.

[C-izMe]

Kobe's shot selection is a result of Bynum not always bringing it and Pau being passive. Good post though.

[MisterWestside]

Kobe's shot selection is a result of Bynum not always bringing it and Pau being passive.

Not always. Or even most of the time.

[Dr Positivity]

Good post drza. I never bought the best player in the world battle here either. To me this is some 92 Jordan vs 92 Drexler ish.

My biggest problem with Durant is that when he's not scoring, he's not impacting the game all that much for a star, to me. Aside from the lack of playmaking and elite D, I think you hit on a good point that Durant's spacing can't be compared to a guy like Dirk's or even KG's. Not only does Durant just bring his SF defender out, but he's usually inside the arc looking to create a shot. So his spacing just in terms of range isn't that unique for SFs, it's just his defenders have to pay incredible attention to him. Durant does draw extra defenders on the ball, but it doesn't open up space like when a prime Lebron or Wade after they break into the paint and the defense has to scramble and collapse if they don't want to get dunked on. Durant has gotten much better at driving to the basket off screens or w/e, but it's not like Lebron getting a head of steam. Let's put this way, Durant doesn't have as direct a connection to teammates getting open shots at the rim or from 3, as a lot of the all time great offensive players to me. The thing I do like about Durant is how well his game fits with other ballhandling players and how he doesn't have to dominate the ball much. But this helps him be a part of an ensemble, which he was this year. Also one argument for Durant vs a guy like Dirk to make up for the 'less spacing' thing, is that I generally think it's easier to build an elite defensive team when the stars are on the perimeter offensively. Because this allows the frontcourt to be filled with the defensive guys/rebounders and bigs who aren't afraid of fouls.

In a way I feel like Durant/Westbrook is a bizarro world West/Baylor, where instead of Baylor getting injured and West taking over as the #1, Durant has just stayed the #1

[Mo26]

Except they play offense and defense in basketball, and Kobe gave a lot of those points back on the defensive end of the floor

No, not really. He's still a good defender.

. Kobe's high per game averages were also mainly due to his volume shooting.

No, they were mostly due to him being one of the 3-4 best scorers in the league. His only league-average TS% had more due with the horrible spacing than anything, which is why he had a 56% TS with Bynum or Pau off the court.

He can still ball, but he wasn't top five.

Pretty easily top 5.

[Mo26]

Kobe's shot selection is a result of Bynum not always bringing it and Pau being passive. Good post though.

It's actually because of the Lakers horrible spacing and the fact that he has to play on the perimeter instead of the post where he's at his best. It doesn't help that his coach is the worst offensive coach in the league.

That's why his efficiency was better in the 5 games without Bynum and he had a 56% TS when Bynum was off the floor.

[Mo26]

Like I said mystic, the numbers he used doesn't account for 1) Kobe's volume shooting, which can take away from better scoring opportunities for his team (shot creation IS valuable, but it can also be a detriment especially if you're preventing two capable 7-footers from working in the post) and 2) his matador defense.

Except he's not taking away opportunities from Bynum/Pau. Bynum put up 19 PPG and averaged more FGA than any center in the league. Pau took the same amount of FGA he was taking as a #1 option in Memphis.

Of course, both saw big declines in their efficiency when Kobe was out, and in general saw decline when Kobe was on the bench.

Here's some Bynum nights in those 7 games without Kobe:
10-27
7-17
7-20
9-24
8-16

Big decline in efficiency. Kobe helps their TS% by a significant amount, and isn't taking opportunities away at all. And his defense isn't close to matador. Try again.

[Mo26]

Yup. And that's on a team with the worst bench in the league, the worst 3-pt shooting, the worst PG and SF rotation, the worst at creating turnovers (by far), the worst head coach in the NBA, the least productive 4-15 in the entire league, and a totally new offensive and defensive system.

Well, it is weird. If that all would be true, it should have showed up in the 7 competitive games the Lakers played without Bryant.

Well, it is true and 7 games doesn't change that. They did have the worst bench in the league, the worst 3-pt shooting, the worst PG and SF rotation, the worst at creating turnovers (by far), the worst head coach in the NBA, the least productive 4-15 in the entire league, and a totally new offensive and defensive system. Oh, and no training camp. Oh, and 0 play-makers outside Bryant Actually amazing they ending up the #3 seed/6th best record all things considered. They'd have been in the lottery or a 8th seed without Bryant.

Easy top 5.

lol @ Dork being top 5 when he came into the season out of shape and played like garbage until about mid-Feb. Then was swept in the first round. Great leadership there by Dork.

[Mo26]

Kobe is still top 5 . Lead the lakers to the 3rd seed. Come on

Yup. And that's on a team with the worst bench in the league, the worst 3-pt shooting, the worst PG and SF rotation, the worst at creating turnovers (by far), the worst head coach in the NBA, the least productive 4-15 in the entire league, and a totally new offensive and defensive system. Incredible how they overachieved and Kobe was the biggest reason for that. Put up 28/5/5/1.3. #2 in PPG. #3 in APG among non-PG's trailing only LeBron and Iggy. 5.4 RPG as a SG. Led Lakers in SPG. #1 in 30+ pt and 40+ pt games. 1st Team All-NBA. 4th in MVP voting.

Then in the playoffs he was excellent. Put up 30/5/5/25 PER in 12 games with a bunch of great games.

31/5/4/2/54% TS
38/4/2/3/59% TS
22/8/6/2
43/6/5/2/58% TS
31/4/3/1/59% TS
17/8/2
36/7/6/2/55% TS
38/8/6/55% TS
42/5/2/1/59% TS

The playoffs are what it's all about and only LBJ/Durant had a better playoffs. Easily top 5.

[MisterWestside]

That's why his efficiency was better in the 5 games without Bynum and he had a 56% TS when Bynum was off the floor.

A paltry 5-game sample size notwithstanding (and just for you, I'll forget about the sample size for the sake of argument), you don't think that Kobe being at his freshest at the beginning of the season and his playing defensive juggernauts like the Jazz and Nuggets has nothing to do with that?

Big decline in efficiency. Kobe helps their TS% by a significant amount, and isn't taking opportunities away at all.

Once again, disregarding sample size, Bynum was also playing some of the better defenses in the league during that stretch (the Spurs twice and the Mavs). When you factor that in along with his increased shot-creation, some of those performances were comparable with his average season performances.

And his defense isn't close to matador. Try again.

Is that why he rates averages on defense in defensive efficiency, SPM and RAPM data?

[Mo26]

Except his TS% was 56% with Bynum off the floor for the season. And it's pretty obvious for those who actually know the game instead of just looking at the stat-sheet and going "omgz only 53% TSZ"!!!!!!

If he was allowed to routinely go into the post where he's at his best at this point in his career, and have better spacing to work with, he'd obviously be quite a bit more efficient. Same thing with Pau.

Bynum is an offensive cancer. The Lakers are better offensively with him OFF the court yet somehow Kobe is hurting the opportunities he gets even though he averages 19 PPG and more FGA than any center in basketball. lamo.

Even Phil has pointed out that Bynum hurts the Lakers offensively. That's why he always played the Odom/Pau combo much more. That's why the Lakers were winning rings when he was a non-factor. That's why Mike Brown is such a joke for making Pau the #3 option and turning him essentially into a mid-range jump-shooter. Yet clowns still wanna bitch and moan about how Bryant takes opportunities away from a dude who is a negative offensively.

lmao. Amazing how ignorant some are.

[MisterWestside]

Except his TS% was 56% with Bynum off the floor for the season.

How about a link?

Easy top 5.

His highest rating in the metrics I've seen is 12th (SPM). Kobe is lower in WS and RAPM.

That doesn't say "top 5". Or perhaps you only look at the numbers that help your argument?

Yet clowns still wanna bitch and moan about how Bryant takes opportunities away from a dude who is a negative offensively.

So why have the Lakers played well (and against some good teams to boot) with Kobe OUT of the lineup?

You see, you can't trump your small sample data when there actually data that shows the Lakers performing basically the same WITHOUT their "top 5 player" on the floor.

[Mo26]

How about a link?

How about you find it yourself.

That doesn't say "top 5".

No, but this does:

Yup. And that's on a team with the worst bench in the league, the worst 3-pt shooting, the worst PG and SF rotation, the worst at creating turnovers (by far), the worst head coach in the NBA, the least productive 4-15 in the entire league, and a totally new offensive and defensive system. Incredible how they overachieved and Kobe was the biggest reason for that. Put up 28/5/5/1.3. #2 in PPG. #3 in APG among non-PG's trailing only LeBron and Iggy. 5.4 RPG as a SG. Led Lakers in SPG. #1 in 30+ pt and 40+ pt games. 1st Team All-NBA. 4th in MVP voting.

Then in the playoffs he was excellent. Put up 30/5/5/25 PER in 12 games with a bunch of great games.

31/5/4/2/54% TS
38/4/2/3/59% TS
22/8/6/2
43/6/5/2/58% TS
31/4/3/1/59% TS
17/8/2
36/7/6/2/55% TS
38/8/6/55% TS
42/5/2/1/59% TS

Of course, he also commands as much defensive attention as anybody in the league. Still possess the best skill-set in the league. Still capable of playing 39 MG. Still a phenomenal passer/play-maker and a very good rebounder.

Really his only weakness is the 53% TS, which is still right around league-average, so it's not THAT bad, and has more to due with horrible spacing/moron coach/Bynum/Pau in the post.

[Mo26]

So why have the Lakers played well (and against some good teams to boot) with Kobe OUT of the lineup?

So why should the Lakers/Kobe give more opportunities for a guy who makes them worse offensively? A guy who is an offensive cancer?

You see, how silly it is to act like Kobe is taking opportunities away from a guy who averages 19 PPG and FGA than any center in the league?

[Mo26]

"You know, Jim is a guy that, you know, saw Andrew as a kid-- and thought Bynum was gonna be a great pick for our team. But in the process, I think you know, he's wanted Andrew to have a bigger and bigger role. And I think he's hired his coach to have Andrew have a bigger and bigger role. And that kinda disjointed the symmetry of what the Lakers were really about this last year. You know, Andrew is All-Star center. He was-- did a wonderful job. But, you know, it-- what happened was, it took Pau out of his game. And it took the team away from some of their game. So they changed the style dramatically."

Even Phil agrees.

[MisterWestside]

So why should the Lakers/Kobe give more opportunities for a guy who makes them worse offensively?

Except he doesn't. Perhaps a bit overrated by the box score, but he still rates above average in 2 of the 3 metrics I mentioned above (WS and SPM). Gasol is above average in all three. In Kobe-less Lakers games, their offense didn't miss a beat, with both of those players logging alot of minutes on the floor.

No, but this does:

Funny how you go from the on-off data to raw per game numbers - surely an "intelligent" poster such as yourself knows better than that, right?

No link, citing numbers only when they support your case = disingenuous.

[Doctor MJ]

How about a link?

How about you find it yourself.

I don't know if Westside has done something like this before that causes you to no longer act courteously to him, but you sound unfriendly to the point where conversation can't even happen. While no one can be expected to provide links for every stat they quote for practical reasons, ideally speaking, everyone WOULD provide such links every single time, and most certainly would provide one when quoting something obscure that others are interested in.

For myself, my thought when I saw your stat was that I'd really need to look at the data closely before I came to any major conclusions (sample size? do the numbers lineup to imply Bynum "takes" Kobe's good shots when he's on the floor?), but that it was a good thing for you to bring up.

[Doctor MJ]

So why have the Lakers played well (and against some good teams to boot) with Kobe OUT of the lineup?

So why should the Lakers/Kobe give more opportunities for a guy who makes them worse offensively? A guy who is an offensive cancer?

You see, how silly it is to act like Kobe is taking opportunities away from a guy who averages 19 PPG and FGA than any center in the league?

Yeah, you're just confusing me on a number of levels here.

I will say absolutely that the idea that "19 PPG is plenty for a center!" is just bizarre. If a guy is scoring at great efficiency, and his method for doing this is something that can be initiated more often by the offense, you should never be thinking "oh, he's getting plenty, don't be greedy", you should be thinking seriously about why you aren't increasing that method's usage until his efficiency balances out with the other options.

[Mo26]

[

No link, citing numbers only when they support your case = disingenuous.

Not at all.

Kobe also seems to perform much better with one of our bigs off the floor. He draws more fouls. He's shooting more efficiently.

Kobe (w/ Gasol): 52.2 TS%
Kobe (w/o Gasol): 55.3 TS%

Kobe (w/ Bynum): 50.9 TS%
Kobe (w/o Bynum): 55.9 TS%

NBA.com

And this matches what anybody who actually knows the game can see by the eye test. Much better spacing. More lanes to drive. Much more post-opp opportunities. Lakers don't kill the shot-clock posting and re-posting either one of Pau/Bynum.

So yeah, his efficiency decline has little to do with his shot-selection.

try again.

[Mo26]

[

I will say absolutely that the idea that "19 PPG is plenty for a center!" is just bizarre. If a guy is scoring at great efficiency, and his method for doing this is something that can be initiated more often by the offense, you should never be thinking "oh, he's getting plenty, don't be greedy", you should be thinking seriously about why you aren't increasing that method's usage until his efficiency balances out with the other options.

No, actually you shouldn't. If that player is putting up 19 PPG and taking more FGA than any center in the league, yet the teams offense is actually worse with him on the floor, then you should probably look to involve him less. And that's especially true when you have two far superior offensive players whose games are negatively affected by said player. There's a reason Phil always played the Odom/Pau far more. How can a Laker fan not see this?

The idea that Kobe should look to involve a offensive cancer more is just "bizarre" really.