OFFICIAL DWIGHT HOWARD TRADE / SPECULATION / THOUGHT THREAD

[tiderulz]

But you saying it's a big man's game? You kidding? That used to be true when this league had real centers like Shaq and Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, even Smits, Brad Daugherty, Seikaly. Even most PF's of several years ago would make better centers than scrubs playing center today. You can blame Stern for pussifying the game the way he has to spotlight the wingmen.

Look at the teams that have won championships, Miami is the only team to not have 2 quality bigs since Jordans era, and that was for the same reason the Heat won, they had two of the best players in the league playing on the perimeter with Jordan and Pippen, two of the 50 greatest in the game. Miami had Lebron, Wade and Bosh, arguably 3 of the best 15 players in the league on the same team.

Other championship teams include the Lakers who had the two 7 footers Gasol and Bynum, the Celtics with KG and Perkins, the Pistons had Rasheed and Big Ben, the Lakers before had Shaq, Grantand Walker, the Pistons had Laimbeer and Rodman, the Spurs had Duncan and Robinson, and after Robinson left they kept the twin tower format. The Lakers with Magic had Kareem, Rambis and Green, the Rockets had Hakeem and Thorpe, the Celtics had the Parrish, Mchale and Bird.

So unless you have two the the very best perimeter players on your team, you better have two quality big men with legit size inside to win. The Mavs had Dirk and Chandler, two 7 footers, this Orlando team had Dwight and tall perimeter type players which left very little post offense so you settle for jump shots, especially since Stan didnt want to utilise Dwight in the 4th for fear of him being put on the foul line. It was a flawed logic that isnt effective in the post season, even if your playing in the weak eastern conference where a losing record can still be good enough to get you in the playoffs.

what 2 quality bigs did San Antonio have after Robinson retired? What 2 quality bigs did LA have with Shaq and Kobe? Detroit may have had Big Ben, but he was atrocious on offense. Same with Perkins, he is horrible on offense.

You dont have to have multiple big men, but you do have to have great team defense to win a title now.

[ball teacher]

^^^
Learn your facts. Dwight privately feuded with Stan the past few years. he wanted the ball more in crunch time, wanted Stan to lighten up, didnt fully believe in him. And he went to mgmt and said he wanted Stan gone. So yes, he easily is to blame for getting Stan fired.

now Stan himself didnt help himself out. Throwing the FO under the bus on camera, some very questionable lack of in-game adjustments, horrible game mgmt, too heavy reliance on vets who just were not getting it done. But Stan is a top coach in the league. it isnt Stan's job to get better players around him.

As for trading Dwight, it will get done, the Orlando FO just isnt going to take a bite on a @#@!#$ sandwich just because fans of that team and ESPN talking heads believe they should.

Stan and Dwight having the private disagreements is one thing, if management is doing all it can to cater to Dwight, then firing the coach he occasionally bumped heads with would be the logical thing to do. That was done to entice Dwight not because he called for Stans head. Problem was, Dwight clearly made it known that he wanted out and your front office never wanted to let him go.

Like I said, this isnt about getting the best deal for Orlando, this is about trying to get Dwight who's very humble and somewhat timid to stay in Orlando and if he wont stay then he wont go to the team he wants to play for (Brooklyn).

[tiderulz]

^^^
Learn your facts. Dwight privately feuded with Stan the past few years. he wanted the ball more in crunch time, wanted Stan to lighten up, didnt fully believe in him. And he went to mgmt and said he wanted Stan gone. So yes, he easily is to blame for getting Stan fired.

now Stan himself didnt help himself out. Throwing the FO under the bus on camera, some very questionable lack of in-game adjustments, horrible game mgmt, too heavy reliance on vets who just were not getting it done. But Stan is a top coach in the league. it isnt Stan's job to get better players around him.

As for trading Dwight, it will get done, the Orlando FO just isnt going to take a bite on a @#@!#$ sandwich just because fans of that team and ESPN talking heads believe they should.

Stan and Dwight having the private disagreements is one thing, if management is doing all it can to cater to Dwight, then firing the coach he occasionally bumped heads with would be the logical thing to do. That was done to entice Dwight not because he called for Stans head. Problem was, Dwight clearly made it known that he wanted out and your front office never wanted to let him go.

Like I said, this isnt about getting the best deal for Orlando, this is about trying to get Dwight who's very humble and somewhat timid to stay in Orlando and if he wont stay then he wont go to the team he wants to play for (Brooklyn).

rofl, so you fell for his persona? this same humble and timid person who threw his team under the bus publicly? who in the news, talked about playing for a better PG, when he was still with his teammate who when they were drafted together, was the better player at first?

you should talk about the teams you do follow and are a fan of. You seem to know very little about the Magic.

[ball teacher]

what 2 quality bigs did San Antonio have after Robinson retired? What 2 quality bigs did LA have with Shaq and Kobe? Detroit may have had Big Ben, but he was atrocious on offense. Same with Perkins, he is horrible on offense.

You dont have to have multiple big men, but you do have to have great team defense to win a title now.

Before I show you the the big men these teams had, my entire quote wasnt just 2 quality big men, I wrote "two quality big men with legit size", and when I put 2 quality big men, I mean the players together forming a solid frontcourt.

Now, The Spurs won the first title with Robinson and Duncan together, Will Perdue was the 7 ft vet that came off the bench. That's a strong frontcourt with good size, 21 ft between the 3 players all 7ft except for 6'11 Tim Duncan.
In 2002-2003 they won with Duncan and Robinson again and had Kevin Willis (7ft tall) Malik Rose (6'7) and Danny Ferry (6'10) as the backup bigs.
In 2004-2005 The Spurs had Robinson and Rasho Nesterovic another 7 foot player, again, Tim is 6'11 with long arms so basically you've got 2 7 footers. Rasho averaged almost 2 blocks a game, his backup Nazr Mohammed averaged almost 1 and a half, Nazr is 6'10 and Robert Horry who was 6'9 but played inside and out.
In 2006-2007 The Spurs had Francisco Elson, another 7 foot player start most of the games with Duncan, they had Matt Bonner 6'10 and Fabricio Oberto 6'10 on the bench. All quality bigs with a great coach in Pop. Size matters, pause.

When the Lakers won the title in 2008-2009 they learned had Gasol and Bynum with DJ Mbenda and Chris Mihm, all 7 foot players. Odom and Radmanovic were 6'10 also.
When Shaq (7'1) was a Laker the last title they won (in 2001-2002) had him with Horry, Samaki Walker and Mark Madsen, all 6'10 except Samaki who was 6'9 but a pure big, not a perimeter playing 3 pt shooting big like Stan Van Gundy uses.
In the 2000-2001 series, the Lakers had Shaq with Horace Grant, 6'10 veteran big man with Greg Foster 6'11, Horry and Mark Madsen.

When Shaq won the title in Miami he started with Haslem 6'8 but tough as nails and not a perimeter player, ZO was the 7 foot back up.
I think the point is pretty much made that you need quality big men with good size to win, and if you dont have that, you better have 2 awesome perimeter players like Jordan and Pippen or Lebron and Wade, even those guys had big men inside who put in work like Bosh for Miami and Grant and Rodman for the Bulls.

[ball teacher]

rofl, so you fell for his persona? this same humble and timid person who threw his team under the bus publicly? who in the news, talked about playing for a better PG, when he was still with his teammate who when they were drafted together, was the better player at first?

you should talk about the teams you do follow and are a fan of. You seem to know very little about the Magic.

Howard did what most guys do when frustrated and show signs they want out of town. Nobody ever requested a trade and showered praises on the team they want to break with while still playing on the team. Besides, Howard is still a young man that makes mistakes, are we gonna now treat him like a Lebron James because he was frustrated with where his team was going?

[tiderulz]

what 2 quality bigs did San Antonio have after Robinson retired? What 2 quality bigs did LA have with Shaq and Kobe? Detroit may have had Big Ben, but he was atrocious on offense. Same with Perkins, he is horrible on offense.

You dont have to have multiple big men, but you do have to have great team defense to win a title now.

Before I show you the the big men these teams had, my entire quote wasnt just 2 quality big men, I wrote "two quality big men with legit size", and when I put 2 quality big men, I mean the players together forming a solid frontcourt.

Now, The Spurs won the first title with Robinson and Duncan together, Will Perdue was the 7 ft vet that came off the bench. That's a strong frontcourt with good size, 21 ft between the 3 players all 7ft except for 6'11 Tim Duncan.
In 2002-2003 they won with Duncan and Robinson again and had Kevin Willis (7ft tall) Malik Rose (6'7) and Danny Ferry (6'10) as the backup bigs.
In 2004-2005 The Spurs had Robinson and Rasho Nesterovic another 7 foot player, again, Tim is 6'11 with long arms so basically you've got 2 7 footers. Rasho averaged almost 2 blocks a game, his backup Nazr Mohammed averaged almost 1 and a half, Nazr is 6'10 and Robert Horry who was 6'9 but played inside and out.

That shows you know nothing right there. Horry was never an inside out player. He came into the league a SF and moved to be an outside shooting PF.

Rasho was straight up a stiff. Purdue the same. Just because someone is 7ft doesnt mean they are a good player.

In 2006-2007 The Spurs had Francisco Elson, another 7 foot player start most of the games with Duncan, they had Matt Bonner 6'10 and Fabricio Oberto 6'10 on the bench. All quality bigs with a great coach in Pop. Size matters, pause.

Elson, another stiff. Bonner, average role player at best. Oberto, stiff

When Shaq (7'1) was a Laker the last title they won (in 2001-2002) had him with Horry, Samaki Walker and Mark Madsen, all 6'10 except Samaki who was 6'9 but a pure big, not a perimeter playing 3 pt shooting big like Stan Van Gundy uses.
In the 2000-2001 series, the Lakers had Shaq with Horace Grant, 6'10 veteran big man with Greg Foster 6'11, Horry and Mark Madsen.

Horry, outside player, Madsen a scrub.

I think the point is pretty much made that you need quality big men with good size to win, and if you dont have that, you better have 2 awesome perimeter players like Jordan and Pippen or Lebron and Wade, even those guys had big men inside who put in work like Bosh for Miami and Grant and Rodman for the Bulls.

i agree you need at least 1 big man. You tried unsuccessfully to claim you need 2 big men.

[tiderulz]

rofl, so you fell for his persona? this same humble and timid person who threw his team under the bus publicly? who in the news, talked about playing for a better PG, when he was still with his teammate who when they were drafted together, was the better player at first?

you should talk about the teams you do follow and are a fan of. You seem to know very little about the Magic.

Howard did what most guys do when frustrated and show signs they want out of town. Nobody ever requested a trade and showered praises on the team they want to break with while still playing on the team. Besides, Howard is still a young man that makes mistakes, are we gonna now treat him like a Lebron James because he was frustrated with where his team was going?

at least Lebron finished his contract. He didnt try to force a team to move him when he still had a year left on his contract. He didnt say that he was "loyal" to cleveland and stay, then demand a trade 3 months later.

[UConn celt]

Rough idea for a midseason Dwight deal. Coming from a Celtics fan:

Magic get: Anderson Varejao, Dion Waiters, various draft picks and expiring contracts from LAL and CLE

Cavaliers get: Bynum, Jeff Green, Glen Davis

Lakers get: Dwight, J-Rich, Brandon Bass

Celtics get: Pau Gasol


Cavs seem to make out on this deal because Bynum may walk on them after the season, though they'd still be the frontrunner to re-sign him. Orlando sheds a couple lousy deals and get cap flexibility + picks. Lakers get Dwight and a nice roleplayer in Bass, though they give up a lot. Celtics lose future at SF in Green and solid roleplayer in Bass, but fill their hole at C.

[silent1900]

The bright side of us losing Dwight? There is at LEAST a 50/50 chance that I won't have to hear the words 'stretch four' again for maybe a year or so.

[StMikes31]

Rough idea for a midseason Dwight deal. Coming from a Celtics fan:

Magic get: Anderson Varejao, Dion Waiters, various draft picks and expiring contracts from LAL and CLE

Cavaliers get: Bynum, Jeff Green, Glen Davis

Lakers get: Dwight, J-Rich, Brandon Bass

Celtics get: Pau Gasol


Cavs seem to make out on this deal because Bynum may walk on them after the season, though they'd still be the frontrunner to re-sign him. Orlando sheds a couple lousy deals and get cap flexibility + picks. Lakers get Dwight and a nice roleplayer in Bass, though they give up a lot. Celtics lose future at SF in Green and solid roleplayer in Bass, but fill their hole at C.

Lakers not doign that deal. Better off with Bynum and Gasol.

[aleZ]

at least Lebron finished his contract. He didnt try to force a team to move him when he still had a year left on his contract. He didnt say that he was "loyal" to cleveland and stay, then demand a trade 3 months later.

Agreed. If stan and otis were the issue, they're both gone. But no, Dwight wants out anyway. This shows he didn't give a crap about Orlando in the first place.

[orlandomanic]

at least Lebron finished his contract. He didnt try to force a team to move him when he still had a year left on his contract. He didnt say that he was "loyal" to cleveland and stay, then demand a trade 3 months later.

Lebron wanted to play on a stack team. Him and Wade already had it all planned out 3 years before it happen when they became friends in the Olympics, that is why Lebron and Wade opted to sign the short term contracts that they did.

[ilikebeer]

I wonder if it makes more sense for us for us to trade straight up with the rockets or to involve LA. The way I see it, involving LA will allow us to shed an extra contract (j-rich) in order to get the most picks/prospects from Houston.

Something simple like:

LA in: dwight and j-rich

Orl in: motiejunas, lamb, martin, toronto first, livingston

Houston in: bynum, big baby

Might be a great basic framework for all teams. This allows Houston to keep some of its assets and allow Orlando to shed its two worst contracts (other than nelsons new deal - ugh!) while getting some good talent/picks back.

[clutchkobe]

i hate to tell you guys this but a superstar is going to go where they want. you cant trade him to a team he does not want to go to. when the lakers had to trade shaq, there was a much better package with indiana but he refused to go there. we had to take crap from miami. you might as well face it.....dwight is going to decide his destination.....not hennigan. yes he got out of the nets offer once because for some strange reason he thought he could hold on to dwight....now he knows thats over.....dwight will decide. so get the rockets offer out of your mind....it wont happen.

[msmoore66]

i hate to tell you guys this but a superstar is going to go where they want. you cant trade him to a team he does not want to go to. when the lakers had to trade shaq, there was a much better package with indiana but he refused to go there. we had to take crap from miami. you might as well face it.....dwight is going to decide his destination.....not hennigan. yes he got out of the nets offer once because for some strange reason he thought he could hold on to dwight....now he knows thats over.....dwight will decide. so get the rockets offer out of your mind....it wont happen.

Oh true.

[Stebo_SSK]

I wonder if it makes more sense for us for us to trade straight up with the rockets or to involve LA. The way I see it, involving LA will allow us to shed an extra contract (j-rich) in order to get the most picks/prospects from Houston.

Something simple like:

LA in: dwight and j-rich

Orl in: motiejunas, lamb, martin, toronto first, livingston

Houston in: bynum, big baby

Might be a great basic framework for all teams. This allows Houston to keep some of its assets and allow Orlando to shed its two worst contracts (other than nelsons new deal - ugh!) while getting some good talent/picks back.

Looks good but if I were Houston Id try to hold on to Lamb if possible.

[Bruteque]

I wonder if it makes more sense for us for us to trade straight up with the rockets or to involve LA. The way I see it, involving LA will allow us to shed an extra contract (j-rich) in order to get the most picks/prospects from Houston.

Something simple like:

LA in: dwight and j-rich

Orl in: motiejunas, lamb, martin, toronto first, livingston

Houston in: bynum, big baby

Might be a great basic framework for all teams. This allows Houston to keep some of its assets and allow Orlando to shed its two worst contracts (other than nelsons new deal - ugh!) while getting some good talent/picks back.

If HOU was willing to give up that much for Bynum, the deal probably would have gone through already. Nah, HOU knows exactly what their competition has to offer and will only offer slightly more. So far none of the rumored offers even comes close to Lamb + TOR pick + absorb JRich. The SAC pick from CLE is so heavily protected it literally cannot be a lottery pick. Bynum rental? Are you kidding me? Lopez@LOLmax and late 1st would be worse than letting Howard walk for nothing. Now if CLE wants to throw in Thompson or Waiters without any guarantees, then we are talking.

[Stebo_SSK]

When it comes down to it, regardless of who Orlando deals with they are stuck between a rock and hardspot. They arent getting a good deal outside of a Houston 2way or a slightly better for Orlando's situation a HOU-LAL 3way.

[Orlando Dawg]

When it comes down to it, regardless of who Orlando deals with they are stuck between a rock and hardspot. They arent getting a good deal outside of a Houston 2way or a slightly better for Orlando's situation a HOU-LAL 3way.

What many don't realize is that they really don't care, they aren't trading Dwight, any trade discussions are just customer service and nothing more. What they are actually going to do is try to win the Championship this year, and I would expect nothing less.

[CourtsideTV]

When it comes down to it, regardless of who Orlando deals with they are stuck between a rock and hardspot. They arent getting a good deal outside of a Houston 2way or a slightly better for Orlando's situation a HOU-LAL 3way.

What many don't realize is that they really don't care, they aren't trading Dwight, any trade discussions are just customer service and nothing more. What they are actually going to do is try to win the Championship this year, and I would expect nothing less.

are you freakin delusional LMAO