In Defense of Okafor and Nene

[fishercob]

As per usual, doc more eloquently put a thought that I share: the WIzards are going to be an absolute bitch to play against.

I look for the Wizards to take on coach Witt's persona -- up in your grill, tough, unfriendly. I mean that as a complement.

[Ruzious]

As per usual, doc more eloquently put a thought that I share: the WIzards are going to be an absolute bitch to play against.

I look for the Wizards to take on coach Witt's persona -- up in your grill, tough, unfriendly. I mean that as a complement.

Are they going to win? That's basically all that matters - that and player development.

[fishercob]

As per usual, doc more eloquently put a thought that I share: the WIzards are going to be an absolute bitch to play against.

I look for the Wizards to take on coach Witt's persona -- up in your grill, tough, unfriendly. I mean that as a complement.

Are they going to win? That's basically all that matters - that and player development.

I'm confident they'll win more than they have. They could even win more than they lose. We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.

But I disagree that whether or not they win is "basically all that matters." If it was, no one would watch the game. We'd just check the results. But we watch because we enjoy the game itself. We enjoy seeing people try very hard, work together, give their all. We enjoy because these guys are some of the best athletes on the planet and they represent the pinnacle of athletic achievement -- to be one of the 300-or-so best people on the planet at any one thing.

As a fan who loves the team and pays for tickets, I *desperately* want them to win. But how them compete is just as important to me.

[Ruzious]

Fish, I definitely don't see it your way. Max effort from high school kids counts just as much as winning and losing. Max effort from NBA players while losing doesn't come anywhere near satisfying me - as a fan. That's like saying we should give them gold stars for competing. How they compete means garbage if they lose. I'll respect the players for busting their arses, but that's different from enjoying the game. Bottom line - the only way I can enjoy a Wiz game is if they win it.

[GhostsOfGil]

Nene walked with a slight limp after the game. The plantar fasciitis that bothered him at times last season has flared up, he said.

"When the ball goes up, I forget about that, though," Nene said.

There's a decent chance that Nene could take this foot injury into next year, which would mean he could miss some games. More activity isn't exactly going to help him.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/7/30 ... oot-injury

[nate33]

Ruzious, your point about the lack of outside shooting is well taken and I agree wholeheartedly: the Wizards won't be a reliably good team until they add more shooters (or learn to shoot). However, I do think the Wizards will be reliably mediocre with the team they have now. Their defense is going to be good enough to keep them in almost every game. They should win a lot of ugly games, and they should also win when the streak shooters get hot on offense or when games get sloppy and there are a lot of transition points. They'll also get wins when facing tired opponents on back-to-backs, or when facing really bad teams or injury-depleted teams. Put all that together and I think 38-42 wins is within reach.

[fishercob]

Fish, I definitely don't see it your way. Max effort from high school kids counts just as much as winning and losing. Max effort from NBA players while losing doesn't come anywhere near satisfying me - as a fan. That's like saying we should give them gold stars for competing. How they compete means garbage if they lose. I'll respect the players for busting their arses, but that's different from enjoying the game. Bottom line - the only way I can enjoy a Wiz game is if they win it.

Yeesh.

Well, I suppose I should congratulate (?) you for sticking with the team for so long, seeing as the don't win very much. Or maybe ask you why? I dunno. I can't really understand that mindset.

It's one thing if you take a black and white view on something that you control or have a hand in. But as a fan? Just strikes me as a recipe for unhappiness.

[Ruzious]

Fish, I definitely don't see it your way. Max effort from high school kids counts just as much as winning and losing. Max effort from NBA players while losing doesn't come anywhere near satisfying me - as a fan. That's like saying we should give them gold stars for competing. How they compete means garbage if they lose. I'll respect the players for busting their arses, but that's different from enjoying the game. Bottom line - the only way I can enjoy a Wiz game is if they win it.

Yeesh.

Well, I suppose I should congratulate (?) you for sticking with the team for so long, seeing as the don't win very much. Or maybe ask you why? I dunno. I can't really understand that mindset.

It's one thing if you take a black and white view on something that you control or have a hand in. But as a fan? Just strikes me as a recipe for unhappiness.

Have you actually been happy the last 40 years? I can't pick and choose what team I'm attached to. That comes with being a little kid forming an attachment that's not goinig away. I can understand your mindset for the rebuilding stage, but Ted's made it clear the Wiz are past the rebuilding stage - and after all these years of losing, they sure as hell better be.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Nene walked with a slight limp after the game. The plantar fasciitis that bothered him at times last season has flared up, he said.

"When the ball goes up, I forget about that, though," Nene said.

There's a decent chance that Nene could take this foot injury into next year, which would mean he could miss some games. More activity isn't exactly going to help him.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/7/30 ... oot-injury

Figures.

Hopefully, Nene won't end up being Arenas part 2. Ernie's on the hook for $52 over the next 4 years, and it all rides on Nene's health. His issues with plantar fasciitis started back in February or January. It's almost August. I was worried something like this might be an issue with Nene.

[dobrojim]

Plantar can be chronic but it also tends to be something that resolves
itself with rest.

[DCZards]

I'm confident they'll win more than they have. They could even win more than they lose. We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.

But I disagree that whether or not they win is "basically all that matters." If it was, no one would watch the game. We'd just check the results. But we watch because we enjoy the game itself. We enjoy seeing people try very hard, work together, give their all. We enjoy because these guys are some of the best athletes on the planet and they represent the pinnacle of athletic achievement -- to be one of the 300-or-so best people on the planet at any one thing.

As a fan who loves the team and pays for tickets, I *desperately* want them to win. But how them compete is just as important to me.

I'm with you, fish. I've been a full or partial Zard season ticket holder for more than 15 years. And I hate losing. But as much as I hate losing, I will root all day, every day for athletes who compete, who play hard and smart and leave it all on the floor. I'll back that kind of team win or lose. I think, or at least hope, that the Zards are building that kind of team and culture. A deep, talented team that wins more games than it loses...even as youngins like Beal, Wall, Seraphin, etc. develop and learn how to play the game.

I'm looking forward to going to the Verizon Center next season.

[payitforward]

I'm confident they'll win more than they have. They could even win more than they lose. We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.

But I disagree that whether or not they win is "basically all that matters." If it was, no one would watch the game. We'd just check the results. But we watch because we enjoy the game itself. We enjoy seeing people try very hard, work together, give their all. We enjoy because these guys are some of the best athletes on the planet and they represent the pinnacle of athletic achievement -- to be one of the 300-or-so best people on the planet at any one thing.

As a fan who loves the team and pays for tickets, I *desperately* want them to win. But how them compete is just as important to me.

I'm with you, fish. I've been a full or partial Zard season ticket holder for more than 15 years. And I hate losing. But as much as I hate losing, I will root all day, every day for athletes who compete, who play hard and smart and leave it all on the floor. I'll back that kind of team win or lose. I think, or at least hope, that the Zards are building that kind of team and culture. A deep, talented team that wins more games than it loses...even as youngins like Beal, Wall, Seraphin, etc. develop and learn how to play the game.

I'm looking forward to going to the Verizon Center next season.

Not sure anyone is right or wrong in this debate. Usually when we say we want our guys "to compete" we do mean, or at least mean in part, that we want them to have a chance to win. If they play extremely hard and are always outclassed, you can root for them for a while, but that's a cul de sac, and pretty soon instead of rooting for the players you are damning the idiots who chose them for your team.

Competing and winning is better than competing and losing, no?

[payitforward]

From Nene's first game as a Wizard, the team went 10-12 (I believe). Nene played in 12 of those games, if I'm right, and we were 7-5 in those games.

In his first game w/ us James Singleton looked like he'd just gotten off the plane from China and only logged a few minutes in a loss. In his 2d game, he played well (5-8/2-2FTs/9rbds -- in 26 minutes), but we lost.

From then on we were 8-2 when James Singleton played. In games in which he and Nene both played, we were 5-0.

YMMV, but I think James Singleton was the single most important reason we ended the season so well. We haven't re-signed him, and I think we'd better -- even though it's hard to imagine him playing a whole season at the level of production of his 270 minutes last year.

Yes Nene improved us. But keep in mind that we were 2-5 in the games Nene played but James Singleton didn't. That's 23-59 on a normal season.

Looked at another way, we were 12-42 on the season w/o James Singleton. That's 18-64 on a normal season.

To that team we've added Okafor, Ariza and Beal. And we've seen our young players get better as last season went along. Still... I wonder how optimistic we can be.

[fishercob]

Holy Sample Size, Batman!

[montestewart]

Don't forget Almond

[willbcocks]

Win or lose, I enjoy watching a good defensive team. The Wizards were winning more with the Arenas/Jamison squad, but I did not enjoy the style of play.

How many wins would I sacrifice for the Wiz to play my preferred style? Maybe 4 or 5. A 50 win team that plays little defense would be more fun to watch than a 40 win team that's a monster on the defensive end.

[payitforward]

Holy Sample Size, Batman!

If I were trying to use a statistical analysis to prove some further point, fish, your comment would be apposite. E.g., I couldn't conclude that Beal is an X kind of player from the number of minutes he played in SL.

But I'm not. I'm looking at how the team played with and without a given player. You are not disputing the data I presented are you?

Lets say a team opened the season 8-15. I couldn't view that as statistical support to conclude that they'd go @ 20-39 the rest of the season. But I could certainly think they'd be unlikely to go 39-20.

[payitforward]

^^
I think I need to be a little clearer. If you can't ask *how* a team got a given record, then you can't understand where that team is in its development. We went 10-12 w/ Nene. James Singleton played in 12 of those 22 games. Had he not been on the team to play in those games, I think our record would have been more like 8-14 or maybe even 7-15 in those games. James Singleton is not on the team at present. So, it's the team *without him* that needs to be our baseline.

To that team without him, we've added Okafor, Ariza and Beal. How much do they improve us?

Now, we all hope that Nene plays more than half the games this coming season, and that too has to be considered. For that reason, it's worth noting that in games in which he played but James Singleton didn't, we weren't all that good.

If I flip a coin, statistics tell me nothing about whether it'll come up heads or tails. We have to play every game. But, a lot of talk is surfacing about the playoffs, etc. -- about how much better we are, in short.

Unless you think Okafor, Ariza and Beal make a team that went 12-42 (w/o James Singleton) one whole heck of a lot better, or you think Vesely and Wall went through the roof in the final 22 games of last season (and they did play better) it's fair to question the optimism.

[nate33]

Singleton posted a PER of 19.6 this season, which makes him the 2nd best player on the team behind only Nene. It's a little hard to believe that a walk-on vet who was playing in China 6 months ago is actually the 2nd best player on the team and perhaps the 10th best PF in the league. Therefore, I think fishercob's skepticism is justified. Singleton can't possibly be as good as his brief sample size suggests. And even if he was this past year, it's pretty hard to believe he'll be as good next year.

I'd very much like to have him back, but I don't think his presence is would be the difference between an 18-64 season and a 45-37 season. I don't think he would even play very much given our depth at forward. What makes Singleton so valuable isn't that he's an elite player. It's that he is nearly as good as most of our high priced/highly touted bigs, but he costs next to nothing. I'd love to sign him and then trade Okafor or Booker for a good wing. Unfortunately, it's hard to find an available wing belonging to a team in need of Okafor or Booker.

[BruceO]

Well with Cartier, nene and singleton the tem won ore. Since we don't know who it's just bring all and cover all bases