Jonas Valanciunas Summer Discussion II

[ATLTimekeeper]

Yeah, three idiots. That's about the extent of it. I remember one year the crowd booed Calderon for missing a three pointer. That was about as big an impact I saw from realGM, but even then it had been several years of Jose at that point. We're not nearly as influential as we think we are. I talk to people about the Raptors and the NBA all the time and 9/10 people haven't even heard of this site.

[sortpar]

Yeah, three idiots. That's about the extent of it. I remember one year the crowd booed Calderon for missing a three pointer. That was about as big an impact I saw from realGM, but even then it had been several years of Jose at that point. We're not nearly as influential as we think we are. I talk to people about the Raptors and the NBA all the time and 9/10 people haven't even heard of this site.

Maybe someone could create a "whiners thread", so that the dozen or so people who continue to whine about everything Raptors, could hang out. Blatant homer-ism is annoying, but the constant whining from some posters is almost overtaking most of the threads.

[BorisDK1]

Bargnani gave the Italian NT a pass a couple of times because of a patently inept coach, but once there was a coaching change he became the lynchpin of the last two Italian teams - showing much better and carrying some of that over to his NBA performances. Simply put, the current Italian coach is running with his young studs. Bargnani's NT performance last summer was dominant, and fed right into the good start he had last season with the Raptors.

Lithuania has a comparable situation with Kemzura - I wouldn't be surprised if the young players refuse to play for him, and veterans like Saras, Javtokas and Songaila are just about done. Lithuania has to recalibrate and find a coach to whom the younger guys can relate, and who will use an obvious rebuilding situation to give them the court time they need to grow as a group. Kemzura is trying to ride an old horse that is dying under him, and doesn't have the good sense to cut his losses by playing guys like Jonas (or enticing Motiejunas to play for the NT). It would be a lot more respectable for Lithuania to lose with the young players on the pretext that they are the foundation of future successes at Eurobasket, the World Championships and the 2016 Olympics in Rio.

I don't know about how tolerable that would be at home. Given basketball's status in Lithuania, that would be like the coach of the Canadian hockey NT bringing a bunch of 21 year olds at the Olympics so that they could grow together as a team. That would likely be his last stint as the Canadian NT coach.

Lithuania does have a different agenda from that of Raptors' fans. Even Lietuvos Rytas didn't use Jonas a whole lot, so obviously either there's a consensus about what he can and cannot do relative to his age or the entire bunch of Lithuanian coaches are complete morons.

[niQ]

for the most part. It's true that they're showing up but it's mostly to see the other team or a star that has the same hair color and eye shape as them (Linsanity).

Wow DH, I usually like what you bring to the table but that was terrible. You could've stopped at star (ie: Kobe, Lebron, etc.) since that's been happening since time.

[JV4MVP]

Bargnani gave the Italian NT a pass a couple of times because of a patently inept coach, but once there was a coaching change he became the lynchpin of the last two Italian teams - showing much better and carrying some of that over to his NBA performances. Simply put, the current Italian coach is running with his young studs. Bargnani's NT performance last summer was dominant, and fed right into the good start he had last season with the Raptors.

Lithuania has a comparable situation with Kemzura - I wouldn't be surprised if the young players refuse to play for him, and veterans like Saras, Javtokas and Songaila are just about done. Lithuania has to recalibrate and find a coach to whom the younger guys can relate, and who will use an obvious rebuilding situation to give them the court time they need to grow as a group. Kemzura is trying to ride an old horse that is dying under him, and doesn't have the good sense to cut his losses by playing guys like Jonas (or enticing Motiejunas to play for the NT). It would be a lot more respectable for Lithuania to lose with the young players on the pretext that they are the foundation of future successes at Eurobasket, the World Championships and the 2016 Olympics in Rio.

I don't know about how tolerable that would be at home. Given basketball's status in Lithuania, that would be like the coach of the Canadian hockey NT bringing a bunch of 21 year olds at the Olympics so that they could grow together as a team. That would likely be his last stint as the Canadian NT coach.

Lithuania does have a different agenda from that of Raptors' fans. Even Lietuvos Rytas didn't use Jonas a whole lot, so obviously either there's a consensus about what he can and cannot do relative to his age or the entire bunch of Lithuanian coaches are complete morons.

I agree. At the end of the day LTU was tied to a much better French team in the 3rd quarter. And LTU accomplished that without Jonas this morning. This also extends to Nigeria where Jonas played only 11 minutes... who really cares because LTU won by like 20 pts.

LTU NT is trying to win now instead of develop/showcase Valanciunas. Jonas has streaks of brilliance but he also makes many mistakes. Being that it is the Olympics there is no time for learning. That's why veterans such as Songaila, who are shells of themselves now, play in the crunch minutes.

I really think Jonas didn't play much today because LTU was in foul trouble throughout the game, including being in the penalty with ~6 minutes to go in the 3rd. Jonas picks up foolish fouls and the coach didn't want easy points (even though Turiaf was missing his FTs) considering how hard it was to score (low scoring game). Jonas not playing today was likely a good coaching decision. Kavalauskas was also playing very well. Of course being Raptors fans we're a little biased but as a LTU NT fan I think it was a proper decision. If anything Jonas could've played in the 4th a little more.

[MEDIC]

for the most part. It's true that they're showing up but it's mostly to see the other team or a star that has the same hair color and eye shape as them (Linsanity).

Wow DH, I usually like what you bring to the table but that was terrible. You could've stopped at star (ie: Kobe, Lebron, etc.) since that's been happening since time.

Did he say something incorrect? It was a great example of people showing up for games, but not supporting the team. Probably the most obvious case in franchise history.

[Double Helix]

for the most part. It's true that they're showing up but it's mostly to see the other team or a star that has the same hair color and eye shape as them (Linsanity).

Wow DH, I usually like what you bring to the table but that was terrible. You could've stopped at star (ie: Kobe, Lebron, etc.) since that's been happening since time.

Yeah. That came out worse than I meant it to. I meant it as more of an expression like how some might say "same skin color," only there are plenty of people who share the same skin color as Jeremy Lin who aren't Asian so it wasn't really about the pigment of his skin. When people talk about skin color they usually talk about the difference between blacks and whites because of the extremes. Jeremy Lin's skin color can probably be found in a ton of different ethnic groups so what I was trying to say is that people cheered for him over the home town Raptors because he looked like them in ways that others did not.

Lin isn't Chinese Canadian. He isn't even Chinese. Both his parents were American. He's Chinese American and yet thousands cheered for him over the hometown team simply because he looked more like them than other Raptors players did. At that point it really is about looks, isn't it? That's all I was trying to say. I was actually trying to handle it delicately without mentioning race but I guess I backfired.

[MEDIC]

I thought it was obvious what your point was DH.

Maybe one day an american Ginger will go on a ginsanity run & all the local gingers will show up at the ACC & cheer him on as he helps beat the raps..........

& I'll be disappointed & embarassed for the city once again.....

[West Rouge]

for the most part. It's true that they're showing up but it's mostly to see the other team or a star that has the same hair color and eye shape as them (Linsanity).

Wow DH, I usually like what you bring to the table but that was terrible. You could've stopped at star (ie: Kobe, Lebron, etc.) since that's been happening since time.

Yeah. That came out worse than I meant it to. I meant it as more of an expression like how some might say "same skin color," only there are plenty of people who share the same skin color as Jeremy Lin who aren't Asian so it wasn't really about the pigment of his skin. When people talk about skin color they usually talk about the difference between blacks and whites because of the extremes. Jeremy Lin's skin color can probably be found in a ton of different ethnic groups so what I was trying to say is that people cheered for him over the home town Raptors because he looked like them in ways that others did not.

Lin isn't Chinese Canadian. He isn't even Chinese. Both his parents were American. He's Chinese American and yet thousands cheered for him over the hometown team simply because he looked more like them than other Raptors players did. At that point it really is about looks, isn't it? That's all I was trying to say. I was actually trying to handle it delicately without mentioning race but I guess I backfired.

No need to get political. Its a very accurate observation & hopefully not viewed as racist at all. Its similar to Canadians of European descent drive around with flags of their parents old countries. Likely why BC & Co. were so big on bringing Euros to the Raps. Trying to cash in on the multiculturalism. Unfortunately he never found a star

[JWiLL02]

International basketball has always focused on perimeter play, even from its bigs. I'm disappointed in how Jonas has been used so far, but I can't say I'm surprised.

He's going to benefit greatly from the switch to the NBA, ala Rubio. The floor opens up, the lane isn't as congested and more post opportunities are available.

I think he can be an 8/8 type rookie given his activity level, though I expect there will be a fair amount of bigger 14/12 type games that has the average brought down by duds when he gets in foul trouble. He's too active and skilled around the basket to ever be a "bust" in my opinion.

[Joker]

"Bust" is a relative term. "Bust" in terms of the initial expectations set (i.e. franchise player, perennial all-star, etc.), or bust in terms of simply not becoming a serviceable, valued player? If Lebron James had a Shane Battier-type career, he would've been considered a bust by the former definition, and not a bust by the latter.

If Jonas ends up having a 12/8 type career and is good enough to start for a lot of NBA teams, would he be a bust?

[MEDIC]

If Jonas ends up having a 12/8 type career and is good enough to start for a lot of NBA teams, would he be a bust?

Bust is a strong term. Bust to me means someone that couldn't stay in the leaue. Hoffa is a bust.

Based on the hype surrounding Jonas as a prospect, 12/ 8 would be "disappointing". Not meeting his potential. Still a useful player, but not great value at 5.

Now if you said 12/8, 2.5+ blocks & excellent defense, then I wouldn't say that was disappointing. I'd be happy with that.

[Kastas]

If Jonas ends up having a 12/8 type career and is good enough to start for a lot of NBA teams, would he be a bust?

From my Lithuanian perspective - anything less than Ilgauskas career averages(13.0/7.3/1.6, 2xAll-Star) will be disappointing.

[JV4MVP]

for the most part. It's true that they're showing up but it's mostly to see the other team or a star that has the same hair color and eye shape as them (Linsanity).

Wow DH, I usually like what you bring to the table but that was terrible. You could've stopped at star (ie: Kobe, Lebron, etc.) since that's been happening since time.

Yeah. That came out worse than I meant it to. I meant it as more of an expression like how some might say "same skin color," only there are plenty of people who share the same skin color as Jeremy Lin who aren't Asian so it wasn't really about the pigment of his skin. When people talk about skin color they usually talk about the difference between blacks and whites because of the extremes. Jeremy Lin's skin color can probably be found in a ton of different ethnic groups so what I was trying to say is that people cheered for him over the home town Raptors because he looked like them in ways that others did not.

Lin isn't Chinese Canadian. He isn't even Chinese. Both his parents were American. He's Chinese American and yet thousands cheered for him over the hometown team simply because he looked more like them than other Raptors players did. At that point it really is about looks, isn't it? That's all I was trying to say. I was actually trying to handle it delicately without mentioning race but I guess I backfired.

For what it's worth, Lin is Taiwanese, not Chinese. Of course he is a Taiwanese-American considering that his parents are immigrants... and a lot of his relatives remain in Taiwan.

For some people the Taiwan vs. China nationality is a sensitive subject. Considering that Taiwan has ~70% of the population that Canada does I will grant it to be represented as a legitimate sovereign. But yea it's been over 60 years since "succession" so Taiwan it is.

[Joker]

Career averages can be misleading. They can get unfavourably skewed. A player might put up 20/10 for 7-8 years in his prime, but will have career averages of 15/7 because he came into the league at 20 and barely played his first 3-4 years. Or players can play 4-5 years in the twilight of their careers at a really diminished level. Perfect example is McGrady, who illustrates both situations. His career ppg is only 19.6 ppg. That number doesn't capture the fact there was an 8-year stretch where he averaged 25+ppg.

[xprt]

Bargnani gave the Italian NT a pass a couple of times because of a patently inept coach, but once there was a coaching change he became the lynchpin of the last two Italian teams - showing much better and carrying some of that over to his NBA performances. Simply put, the current Italian coach is running with his young studs. Bargnani's NT performance last summer was dominant, and fed right into the good start he had last season with the Raptors.

Lithuania has a comparable situation with Kemzura - I wouldn't be surprised if the young players refuse to play for him, and veterans like Saras, Javtokas and Songaila are just about done. Lithuania has to recalibrate and find a coach to whom the younger guys can relate, and who will use an obvious rebuilding situation to give them the court time they need to grow as a group. Kemzura is trying to ride an old horse that is dying under him, and doesn't have the good sense to cut his losses by playing guys like Jonas (or enticing Motiejunas to play for the NT). It would be a lot more respectable for Lithuania to lose with the young players on the pretext that they are the foundation of future successes at Eurobasket, the World Championships and the 2016 Olympics in Rio.

True after Lithuania's shameful performance in 2009 European championship ( only won 1 game in tournament...) federation decided to blow up everything and hired young coach in Kemzura and given him time to grow together with bunch young players. Everyone expected team will suck in 2010 with young guys but they took 3rd place in world championships and Kemzura hype began. Instead of taking those young guys to 2011 championship he decided to mix in up with veterans and failed. Guess what he did this year - bunch of veterans and failing again. His rotations, big men underuse, no adjustments and not giving chance to young guys bugs me and even experts here in Lithuania are starting to call him out over his decisions which never happened before. I hope he is out after this year and team starts rebuilding with Jonas and Donut and Kleiza as main pieces.
Btw anyone who is wondering why was Jonas was pulled out today. He started game great - attacked basket and guards even were looking for him in the post 1 quarter but he got stupid foul on perimeter, one phantom foul and was benched. Coach didnt bring till 3rd quarter start then he made some mistakes rotating on defense and coach got furious and benched him for rest of the game. Yea he some mistakes but cmon he looked good especially on offence against Turaf.

[Dr Positivity]

Didn't watch the game but from the box score..

4 points from 2/3 made field goals
0/1 free throws made
0 Rebounds
1 Block
2 fouls

.. 7 minutes played.

Did I miss something here? This makes absolutely no sense to me to why he played the least amount of minutes on the team while only having 2 fouls. I don't even see a match up issue here. I'm sure Val could easily keep up with Seraphin or Turiaf. Is his hand injury worse than they are publicizing? Did Val sleep with Kemzura's wife? What on earth am I missing here?

He's been making a lot of mistakes on the defensive end related to youth and token project center-ness. The Olympics are not a place where dumb mistakes are tolerated. A weak link on the back end defensively in terms of awareness level/reactions, sinks entire plays. Furthemore if I'm the LIT coach I'm doing everything I can to see which the best lineups and combinations are for when they play their QF game and that may very well be with the veterans. The only way they'd have a chance against a more talented team like Spain would be to play a mistake-less, flawless technical game, which may favor older, less talented but less erratic players

[JWiLL02]

Didn't watch the game but from the box score..

4 points from 2/3 made field goals
0/1 free throws made
0 Rebounds
1 Block
2 fouls

.. 7 minutes played.

Did I miss something here? This makes absolutely no sense to me to why he played the least amount of minutes on the team while only having 2 fouls. I don't even see a match up issue here. I'm sure Val could easily keep up with Seraphin or Turiaf. Is his hand injury worse than they are publicizing? Did Val sleep with Kemzura's wife? What on earth am I missing here?

He's been making a lot of mistakes on the defensive end related to youth and token project center-ness. The Olympics are not a place where dumb mistakes are tolerated. A weak link on the back end defensively in terms of awareness level/reactions, sinks entire plays. Furthemore if I'm the LIT coach I'm doing everything I can to see which the best lineups and combinations are for when they play their QF game and that may very well be with the veterans. The only way they'd have a chance against a more talented team like Spain would be to play a mistake-less, flawless technical game, which may favor older, less talented but less erratic players

Yeah or you could, you know, coach the young player. A couple of mistakes shouldn't be enough to bench him for an entire game, especially considering his activity on the other end and general shot changing ability even if his rotations aren't perfect.

[StMikes31]

2 more games left and he's ours. The coach is a moron. I want to see what he does with VAL against USA.

10 minutes - 5 pts - 4 reb anyone?

[Volcano]

For what it's worth, Lin is Taiwanese, not Chinese. Of course he is a Taiwanese-American considering that his parents are immigrants... and a lot of his relatives remain in Taiwan.

For some people the Taiwan vs. China nationality is a sensitive subject. Considering that Taiwan has ~70% of the population that Canada does I will grant it to be represented as a legitimate sovereign. But yea it's been over 60 years since "succession" so Taiwan it is.

His nationality is Taiwanese, his race is Chinese. Taiwan people still consider themselves Chinese in that regard. I know about 20+ Taiwan folk and they all tell me they're Chinese.

Lin isn't Chinese Canadian. He isn't even Chinese. Both his parents were American. He's Chinese American and yet thousands cheered for him over the hometown team simply because he looked more like them than other Raptors players did. At that point it really is about looks, isn't it? That's all I was trying to say. I was actually trying to handle it delicately without mentioning race but I guess I backfired.

His race/ethnicity is Chinese, so you can call him Chinese in that regard. He has Asian blood and that's why they cheer for him, end of story.

If Barack Obama was 1/4 black like Kris Humphries and looked caucasian, don't you think all the black people would still be voting for him because he's "black"? It has to do with background, not looks.