#8 Highest Peak of All Time (Magic '87 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Alright, so Larry Bird '86 took the #7 spot in a come from behind victory. We move on.

First though, everyone should take a look at the Project page, as we're discussing things that we might want to change.

For this thread, no changes, I'd like for people to seriously consider minimizing, or at least holding off on, strategic voting. You can do it in this thread, but let it play out a bit first. There's no sense in abandoning your #1 guy before you really know no one else is with you.

Last, welcome SDChargers#1 to the Voting Panel!

I want to make clear that I don't have any other "applications pending" right now that I know of. If I've forgotten about you, PM me.

[colts18]

Again with the vote: LeBron James 09. Hurry up and get voted in so I can move on. I have other candidates I want to discuss also, but can't until LeBron and Duncan to a lesser extent get voted in.

[lorak]

vote: LeBron '09...

[therealbig3]

Vote: 09 LeBron

[lorak]

bastillon ignored that so I will repost what colts said:

LeBron can play with another star as he proved the last 2 seasons. With him and Wade on the court, the Heat are a +13.1 team. The 96 Bulls were a +13.4 team. When LeBron and Wade played together, the Heat were fine as they proved the past 2 regular seasons and postseasons with the exception of the 11 Mavs series.

Nash was like +15 on court in 05-07. Bill Walton was probably +20 when he was on the court. Jordan + Pippen were definitely around +17-18. that's not a good argument colts.

Nash was +10.9 from 05-07 on the court. Nash's best season was 05 at +12.7. Of course LeBron does lead in on court +/- since 09 with a +12. 2nd place is Ilgauskas and 3rd is KG (+10.6).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... y=diff_pts

Having Walton at +20 is absurd. No chance he was close to that. The Blazers MOV was +9.3 those years with Walton. You do the realize the best on court +/- the past 11 years was +15 (LeBron 09). No chance Walton surpassed that by such a huge margin. That would be unprecedented as no team in history plays +20 or close to it. The Blazers were +5 and +6 Ortg-Drtg those years which would make their differential at around +9 +10 with Walton. Him playing +20 from 2/3 of the game would mean the Blazers were playing like a -30 team in the minutes without him.

Where do you get that Hedo was guarding LeBron for the series? From the highlights I looked at, he barely guarded him. It was a combo of Pietrus, Lee, Hedo, and Lewis.

The Magic did play good defense like a #1 team. They had a 102.88 D rating in the playoffs minus the Cavs series which is right in line with their 101.9 D rating in

the regular season. And they did play well against everyone except LeBron. LeBron only had 3 teammates who averaged 10 PPG and they did it on .505 TS%. The fact that

they were 112 O rating vs 1 defense was a testament to LeBron scoring 39 PPG on great efficency.

(...)

LeBron didn't play like crap defensively. LeBron's 2 main defensive opponents were Turkoglu and Alston and they had 39 FG% and 37 FG%. And I posted the video before.

LeBron's man only touched it 3 times total and did nothing else. Where are the plays LeBron should have helped? There isn't much help you can do if Howard is 3 feet

from the basket by the time you get there and you have to leave a 3 point shooter to do it in the process.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwWAE7XZF3w&feature=fvwrel[/youtube]

[ThaRegul8r]

As I still have LeBron below Erving (not even including other candidates), I suppose I should just wait until the next thread goes up.

[drza]

As I still have LeBron below Erving (not even including other candidates), I suppose I should just wait until the next thread goes up.

Nah. It just happens that most of the block that are voting LeBron all happen to be on now. Go ahead and make your voice heard...it's likely you won't be the only one backing that candidate.

Like before, my vote will almost certainly come from the group of Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett or Magic Johnson. I could see getting behind Walton as well, though I have him below the previous three. LeBron and Dr. J are definitely behind the previous three, though they'd make a good debate with Walton for me.

[lorak]

tsherkin and Tim_Hardawayy, I appreciate your efforts, but neither of you showed that James really improved in terms of post-up abilities by a huge margin. He was put more often into a situation to post-up, caused by various circumstances (team offensive scheme, defensive scheme against the Heat, own off ball game). He posted up more often, because he had more opportunities and he was forced more often. I saw James making post-ups like in the videos in 2009 already, he just didn't use it as often, because he played in a different position.

Overall James showed small improvements in terms of post-up abilities, he showed some improvements off the ball, he showed some more willingness to use the postup rather the face-up. That all might look like as if he changed drastically in terms of skills, but that is misleading. Most times people think that a player changed dramatically it has more to do that there are more opportunities for that player to show certain skills.

I also saw LeBron playing postups in 2009 just like in 2012. The difference isn't in skill set, but in circumstances - Mavs zone and help defense in 2011, playing at PF in 2012 or SF in 2009. That's why LJ '12 isn't better than '09. He is different, but difference is more stylistic than impact wise.


EDIT

LeBron - post up plays (data from synergy, '09 isn't available)

'10 - 6.3% of time, 152 plays, 1.08 ppp (rank - 14th!)
'11 - 8,1% of time, 205 plays, 1.04 ppp (rank - 17th!)
'12 - 14.3% of time, 325 plays, 0.94 ppp (rank 25th)

according to 82games LeBron played at PF
9% of his minutes in '10
14% in '11
24% in '12

and probably even more during 2012 playoffs (data isn't available). So he played more often as PF and thus was more often in a position to post up. People saw such plays made by him often than before, so that started talks about how James improved his post game, when in fact he only increased frequency because of circumstances. His ability to play post up was the same in 2012 as it was in 2009. So one of the arguments against ’09 LJ is totally wrong.

[ardee]

Vote: 1987 Magic Johnson

Strategic voting was never my thing, I merely believe that a vote is a means to express your opinion. If Bird was voted in, Magic should be too, as I feel their impact was almost identical.

But in any case, I will be glad if and when LeBron wins a thread, because things will become much more transparent then.

[bastillon]

so LeBron has similar efficiency on vastly improved volume and he's not a better post-up player. LeBron works entire offseason with Olajuwon and his baseline fadeaway jumper becomes his go-to weapon in every important playoff game, but he's not a better post-up player. it gets noticed by just about EVERYONE that James was a much improved post weapon. I mean Olajuwon admitted he was proud seeing LeBron use the moves he taught him when he was in trouble. there's a reason why James started to post-up a lot more - it's because he felt a lot more comfortable in there.

vote: LeBron 12. he had it all, defensive stopper at multiple positions (hello D-West, Granger, Pierce, Melo, Rondo, hell even KG to a lesser degree), led Miami Heat in energy plays (everything not recorded in boxscore) as their top hustle player, performed great under pressure, delivered one of the all-time great performances with his season on the line in game 6 vs Celtics (which is exactly what he should've done in 09, instead Dwight thoroughly dominated that game with Shaq-like statline of 40/15 in an easy victory), finally played up to his potential - he was at his best when it counted the most, it was the other way around before '12. he went back in the offseason to train with Olajuwon and he played just like him in the playoffs, with clutch performances time after time with the season on the line.

defense and post-up is clearly what makes LeBron a much better player than he was three years earlier. seems funny to me how LeBron 09 supporters completely ignore '10 playoffs when LeBron was basically the same player and got easily contained in the playoffs (Cavs had like 1 good offensive game, the rest was garbage). seems funny how Dirk gets noticed by Dr MJ for his low post improvement after 07 yet the same standard doesn't apply to LeBron because of the ridiculous narrative that he "lost his athleticism" and "dominated great defense". truly great defense when you're shooting 20 FTA game and most of the rest comes from the paint.

[bastillon]

I completely don't get the "those guys were voted in without discussion". there were multiple cases made from multiple posters for Hakeem/Kareem/Bird. if you want I can re-post those cases. I mean I thought we respect each other's work and read those posts. if I was reg8 or PTB fan I wouldn't copy all those articles for nothing. the reason why there wasn't much of a debate was because LeBron's opponents didn't make a case at all or made it in a very limited way against those players. you had plenty of time to respond to those pro Hakeem/Kareem/Bird arguments. you opted to stay silent instead. now you're acting as if those guys got randomly voted in ? are you kiddin me ?

[ardee]

And for what it's worth, I'm completely fine with Bird being voted in. You can only flip flop him with Magic after a certain point, they were both that good.

Random incredible stat: From March 10th to March 30th of '86, Bird averaged 34-9-6 in an 11-1 stretch, with 60-65-89 shooting split. Yeah, that's right. 65% from three, attempting 4 a game.

[lorak]

I'The argument has been made that the 09 Cavs hit much higher than respectable levels, but I hope my last few posts on the matter have explained why I disagree:

(1) Those 3-point shooters were shooting at a historically good rate...they deserve some of that credit.

And don't you think James was creating good opportunities for them and that's why they shot so good?

(2) The ensuing season, we did not see such a level of offense with very minor tweaks. From where I stand (obsessively watching analyzing games in 2010), James wasn't really "worse" (if anything, I side with those saying he was better). So this makes it strange to think of James' QBing act as leading incredible offenses, unless you happen to believe 09 James was an aberration.

Minor tweaks? Adding Shaq and then Jamison, Mo injury... (LJ also missed several games; generally 2010 Cavs had a lot of health issues).
And still difference in offense level wasn't that big: +4.1 vs +3.6. Cavs 2010 regressed on defensive end because of Shaq and Jamison.

In fact since '09 season (when James clearly made big leap between '08 and '09, partly because of 2008 summer experience) his teams on offense were:
+4.1 (4th place)
+3.6 (6th)
+4.4 (3rd)
+2.0 (8th)

So VERY good for defensive oriented teams. And, what's important for this discussion, James did it in different environments, different roles (with Wade he is as good as "solo" during last two season in Cleveland). Also, some of you think 2012 LeBron was better offensively than previous version but data don't show it. As well on team level as on individual. Difference is only - as I said in previous post – stylistic (his impact was almost the same but achieved different way).

[lorak]

so LeBron has similar efficiency on vastly improved volume

Similar efficiency?

0.94 vs 1.04 ppp is BIG difference.

and he's not a better post-up player. LeBron works entire offseason with Olajuwon and his baseline fadeaway jumper becomes his go-to weapon in every important playoff game, but he's not a better post-up player. it gets noticed by just about EVERYONE that James was a much improved post weapon. I mean Olajuwon admitted he was proud seeing LeBron use the moves he taught him when he was in trouble. there's a reason why James started to post-up a lot more - it's because he felt a lot more comfortable in there.

No, LeBrom started to post up more, because circumstances were different (for example he played more as PF).

defense and post-up is clearly what makes LeBron a much better player than he was three years earlier.

Any proof (data) that his defense was better in 2012? Or his skill set on post ups?

[C-izMe]

I'm voting 03 Duncan. More coming later.

[JordansBulls]

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Duncan 2003: 26.9, 0.248------------28.4, 0.279 (24 playoff games, title)
Magic 1987: 27.0, 0.263-------------26.2, 0.265 (18 playoff games, title)
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Lebron James 2012:30.7, 0.298-------30.3, 0.284 (23 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-3


2003 DUNCAN'S STATS
Points per game: 24.2
Boards per game: 17.0
Assists per game: 5.3
PER: 32.0


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-6


1987 MAGIC JOHNSON'S STATS
Points per game: 26.2
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 13.0
PER: 28.2



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... nces-31-40

1986 BIRD'S STATS
Points per game: 24.0
Boards per game: 9.7
Assists per game: 9.5
PER: 22.4




http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-1

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8


VOTE: Tim Duncan in 2003. He was the only player he literally was an allstar on his team, he also ended the reign of a 3x champion in the Lakers. He led the team to the best record in the league and he dominated in the finals playing great on both ends all season long.

[bastillon]

Similar efficiency?

0.94 vs 1.04 ppp is BIG difference.

advantage in volume more than explains it. besides, it's not about what they did during the whole season. to me what matters the most is what they were doing when their season was on the line. 09 James lost 3 games being up by 20 because he relied SOLELY on isolations and once Magic figured how to stop it, Cavs went into big scoring droughts. 12 LeBron would never let that happen because he had more than few tricks which he added in the summer of 2011. first and foremost, his go-to move when his ass was on the line was the Hakeem fadeaway. in that game 6 that was basically what he was doing all along. so maybe James was able to post up occasionally during irrelevant RS games, but when it mattered he just lacked skills to make it happen. 12 LeBron looked a lot more comfortable on the block, period. what did you think about his postgame before looking at this misleading data ?

No, LeBrom started to post up more, because circumstances were different (for example he played more as PF).

not sure how that makes any sense. if LeBron wasn't posting up SFs who he is taller than, then why would he post up PFs which are about the same size he is ? for sure LeBron would use his speed if PFs were guarding him in 09. I doubt that has relevance to how often James started to post up or how much more comfortable he looked down low.

Any proof (data) that his defense was better in 2012? Or his skill set on post ups?

you know me. if I had the data to prove what I saw, I'd have used it by now. I'm going with my gut on this one. but I'm pretty damn sure LeBron 12 was far better in both of these areas than LeBron 09. to me ECF 12 >> ECF 09.

[ardee]

you know me. if I had the data to prove what I saw, I'd have used it by now. I'm going with my gut on this one. but I'm pretty damn sure LeBron 12 was far better in both of these areas than LeBron 09. to me ECF 12 >> ECF 09.

I don't see how ANY series can be ">>" the '09 ECF. 38.5 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 8 apg on 59% TS vs. 33.6 ppg, 11 rpg, 3.9 apg on 59% TS? Admittedly both were against the no. 1 defensive team in the league, but in the Magic series he was forced to do it all on his own. Against the Celtics, he had the option of letting the offense run through Wade or Bosh (later) to give himself a breather for a spell.

I understand the argument for both years, and I personally pick '09 because he was much more physically dominant.

In 2012 his game was based more on smarts and positioning, and it certainly didn't hurt his cause to have the option of the offense running through two other All-Stars to take a breather.

In 2009 it was only LeBron all the time, and he literally never let up. People point to his elimination game 6 in Boston, how about his elimination game 5 against Orlando? 37 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists on 57% TS? Don't act as if 2009 was a limited year. He could do it all on the court, and did so in an even more powerful fashion than in 2012

[PTB Fan]

It's between '87 Magic, '03 Duncan, '77 Walton and '76 Dr J for me.

Gotta think it through

[lorak]

Similar efficiency?

0.94 vs 1.04 ppp is BIG difference.

advantage in volume more than explains it. besides,

Probably, but the point is - LeBron's post up ability was the same in '09 and '12. The only thing that changed was frequency, but his post up skill set was the same in '09 and '12. And that's why when he increased volume his efficiency dropped very significantly.

it's not about what they did during the whole season. to me what matters the most is what they were doing when their season was on the line. 09 James lost 3 games being up by 20 because he relied SOLELY on isolations

And '12 James won his two biggest games (vs Pacers and especially vs Celtics) relied mostly on isolations and jumpers....

and once Magic figured how to stop it,

LOL, Magic never figured how to stop LeBron. They stopped his supporting cast (or supporting cast stopped himself because they missed so many wide open shots...), but not James, who only had one bad game in 2009 ECF.

No, LeBrom started to post up more, because circumstances were different (for example he played more as PF).

not sure how that makes any sense. if LeBron wasn't posting up SFs who he is taller than, then why would he post up PFs which are about the same size he is ? for sure LeBron would use his speed if PFs were guarding him in 09. I doubt that has relevance to how often James started to post up or how much more comfortable he looked down low.

Spacing issues and Mike Brown who never was good offensive coach.

Any proof (data) that his defense was better in 2012? Or his skill set on post ups?

you know me. if I had the data to prove what I saw, I'd have used it by now. I'm going with my gut on this one. but I'm pretty damn sure LeBron 12 was far better in both of these areas than LeBron 09. to me ECF 12 >> ECF 09.

[/quote]

And I'm pretty sure you are wrong. And unfortunately for your opinion I have at least data for one area (post up) which shows how untrue your stance is.

As for defense, from what I remember when we were talking about 09 ECF when games were played you were focusing on selected plays (Pietrus ;]), but not on overall impact. And I really don't care about 1on1 defense and if LeBron's man sometimes scored. That happens for every defensive anchor. You know, you remember how Pietrus scored, or how Alston blows by James in one game, but my answer will be: I remember how LeBron multiple times blocked Dwight or how his help D caused Magic tournovers. So we could talk that way forever.