Predict the Eastern Conference Standings

[hands11]

Zards: Not interested in adjudicating each of Ernie's moves again. I'm really just pointing out the weird way in which Hoopsworld constructed that section. They hailed Ernie for roster moves while at no point acknowledging that he was the guy who put together the previous group. They describe him as a "longtime league executive," but don't mention that Ernie is entering his 10th season as Wizards GM.

Because it can't be properly adjudicated until we see what they have.

With Abe. Without Abe.

We will have a more clear picture of that after this year and next.

Hoopsworld couldn't acknowledge the fact that Ernie is entering his 10th season as the Wizards general manager until they see how his most recent roster moves turn out?

You know where I stand. Owners and GM are a team. There are few if any situations where the owner turns to team and his wallet over in total to a GM.

You can judge the Abe/Ernie team and judge the Ted/Ernie team but you can't fully judge the results for Ted/Ernie until we see the product on the court. We got a glimpse at the end of last season. Small sample but it looked pretty good. Since then they made moves we can't judge fully yet. They lost Mason, Mo and James. They added Okafor, Beal, Trevor A, Webster.

Let me put it this way. If they are playing .600 ball at the AS break (hypothetical to prove a point), would that influence how you saw the rebuild after three years of Ted/Ernie ? Of course it would.

I understand there will be nah sayers most likely up until the point that they build a team that is better then what the last team was at it's best. People will say things like, well we got this far last time. Now what. I don't trust them to make the next moves. So even if they were to make the playoffs, that wouldn't be enough for some here. They would need to win the series and win the following series. That would be the only definitive proof that things are better. I get it. But that isn't likely to happen this year. You have to use a discerning eye to look at see what is actually different.

For one, it is Ted and Ernie and that is very different the Abe and Ernie
For two, even if they did make the playoffs and lost in round one, this team would be better constructed then any team with a core of Gil, CB and AJ. Wall, Beal and Nene is much better. Well given that Beal is what he is projected to be they are. I think the kid if rock solid so I an leaning on the pick paying off big.

Again, we have to see to product before you can judge it fully and we will start to get a peak at this soon enough.

I have long taken the position that Abe as owner was a major problem. With him at the helm, that lead to decisions like paying Gil that stupid contract, over paying to keep AJ and trading away our top 5 pick. He fired his GM over the J Howard thing. It also lead to hiring a HC before you ink the GM who should have picked that person. The front office was a mess. I don't think that would have happened with Ted as owner. I have seen nothing to indicate he does things that way. That makes a huge difference.

In time, I think my long held views will prove to be supported by definitive evidence. Until then, I fully expect the nah sayings to do their thing.

[Nivek]

Hands: That whistling sound you're ignoring is my point going right past your head. I'm not commenting at all about Ernie's most recent moves. Don't care to repeat myself on that subject (again). My comment is about the **** "analysis" of Ernie in an otherwise okay piece about the Wizards. The section about Ernie was written in a way that would seem to suggest that he had no role in the Wizards going 88-224 the past 4 seasons.

Any balanced analysis of Ernie Grunfeld's tenure with the Wizards should include mention of the fact that he's been here for 9 full seasons. Credit him for the offseason he just had; argue extenuating circumstances on the awful record -- whatever. But good analysis wouldn't just ignore it. The way that's written, it sounds like Ernie just took over the role of GM and is executing a rapid turnaround.

To summarize: My comment about that Ernie section in the Hoopsworld is about **** journalism, NOT about the job Ernie is doing.

[hands11]

How the Redskins played yesterday just enforces my take on the Wizards this year....

I see the Wiz as... legit. Anything can happen once you reach that level. They still have a ways to go to reach that upper level of teams but it is more likely then not that they play like a legit team this year and that means a playoff run....

...I am a fan, not a reporter....

Yup! And the proper attitude of the fan is optimism, I totally agree and applaud you for it. As to "...a playoff run", that's a different matter -- can't see it. Hope you are right and I am wrong.

How you manage to stay optimistic after these many years of frustration is another question. Probably worthy of even more applause come to think of it!

Thanks I think

Keep in mind, I was not optimistic at all when Gil was the PG. Specially not optimistic after they extended him. I was not optimistic while Abe was owner. That's just for this team. For the Skins I was not optimistic after they signed Portis. Nor with Synder and Vinny running the show.

In general, I do prefer being optimistic. That obviously can lead to me judging out "best case scenarios" and being wrong when they don't happen. But I realize when I am doing that. I'm fine with that. I would rather hope for the best and cheer on my team to get there even if they fall short. As long as I see a viable longer term structure that can succeed. Ted is the owner. Ernie and Randy are only signed for two years. They have young stud talents in Wall and Beal etc. They have no poison contracts.

I am also a realist. I think I call a dead end situation pretty well. I listed some of those situations above. This is not one of those situations. You can be optimistic about this front office. the coaching staff and the players.

Could this not work out this years ? Sure. But given the situation in total, I wouldn't bet on them failing and I have no problem being optimistic for the best case scenario. This is the best things have looked structurally and talent wise in a long time. Why wouldn't I take that position. I am a fan and I want to see my team winning.

[hands11]

Hands: That whistling sound you're ignoring is my point going right past your head. I'm not commenting at all about Ernie's most recent moves. Don't care to repeat myself on that subject (again). My comment is about the **** "analysis" of Ernie in an otherwise okay piece about the Wizards. The section about Ernie was written in a way that would seem to suggest that he had no role in the Wizards going 88-224 the past 4 seasons.

Any balanced analysis of Ernie Grunfeld's tenure with the Wizards should include mention of the fact that he's been here for 9 full seasons. Credit him for the offseason he just had; argue extenuating circumstances on the awful record -- whatever. But good analysis wouldn't just ignore it. The way that's written, it sounds like Ernie just took over the role of GM and is executing a rapid turnaround.

To summarize: My comment about that Ernie section in the Hoopsworld is about **** journalism, NOT about the job Ernie is doing.

Maybe your missing the obvious answer. They are doing what I am doing. They see the owner and gm as a team and they are judging based on the front office team we have now, not the one we had.

There is no possible logical way to separate an owner and gm when they are running the front office together. Only way to do that would be a GM that 100% control of decisions and money.

Could that have said that. Sure. But I think it is more then obvious that is what they did.

[Nivek]

I'm starting to remember why there's an ignore function.

I don't need to wait to see the team on the floor to know that Ernie has been the team's GM the past 9 seasons.

I didn't think it outrageous to suggest that basketball analysts acknowledge that fact.

I didn't think it outrageous to expect Wizards fans to acknowledge that fact.

I guess I was wrong.

[Kanyewest]

For all intensive purposes EG put a bad roster together in recent years on purpose in order to tank and get lottery picks. In the short term, trading Caron Butler + Antawn Jamison did not work on in terms of wins but it did lead to the Wizards getting John Wall. Same for the Wizards relatively young group of players that allowed them to get Bradley Beal. For now, the Wizards appear to be in a win now mode rather than tanking for assets and hoopsworld believes that hte Wizards are better aimed towards a playoff spot with the moves that EG has made.

[Severn Hoos]

Ernie Grunfeld: A year ago the Washington Wizards possessed talented young players such as JaVale McGee, Nick Young and Andray Blatche, but the team’s locker room was filled with selfishness and immaturity. The longtime league executive decided the club needed to surround Wall with veteran talent to spur his growth and dealt McGee to Denver, Young to Los Angeles (Clippers) and used the one-time amnesty provision on Blatche, basically paying the forward $24 million to go play elsewhere. The remaining return for those players, Nene, Okafor and Trevor Ariza, won’t win many name recognition contests but the Wizards are in much better shape on and off the court from a chemistry standpoint.

It's a shame the team was saddled with selfish and immature players like the guys mentioned. Good thing Ernie took over from the guy who assembled that roster and kept it together for so long. That guy's GM skills were highly questionable. Wait, who was that guy again?

"Who" indeed.

I'll Tip My Hat To The New Constitution
Take A Bow For The New Revolution
Smile And Grin At The Change All Around
Pick Up My Guitar And Play
Just Like Yesterday
Then I'll Get On My Knees And Pray
We Don't Get Fooled Again
Don't Get Fooled Again
No, No!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet The New Boss
Same As The Old Boss

The Who will be playing a few miles from my house on Nov. 5. The day before the election. Just sayin. Might have to get me some tickets.

[hands11]

I'm starting to remember why there's an ignore function.

I don't need to wait to see the team on the floor to know that Ernie has been the team's GM the past 9 seasons.

I didn't think it outrageous to suggest that basketball analysts acknowledge that fact.

I didn't think it outrageous to expect Wizards fans to acknowledge that fact.

I guess I was wrong.

What I wrote was... Could they have said that. Sure.

So I acknowledge the validity of your request.

Seems it is beyond you to acknowledge the validity of my points though that explain why they didn't.

[payitforward]

Ernie Grunfeld's biggest talent is the ability to manage his owner. That's how he has kept a GM job for 10 years w/o delivering anything to speak of.

I thought he handled the 2010 off-season incredibly well. His marching orders were to fill the roster w/ young players so that everyone could see we were starting over, starting fresh, leaving the past behind. He did that very well. The pick of Wall was obvious, consensus. But trading up to get Booker was very well done; he's certainly one of the top ten players out of that draft.

He also used the FA frenzy of that Spring to turn absolutely nothing into Kevin Seraphin, Jordan Crawford (meh), and the #18 pick in 2011. Again, that's very good work on his part. Ted had said "we want to build a team through youth and the draft that can contend for a title in a few years."

He also was able to deal Gil -- I thought that was going to be impossible. And he shortened the salary load going forward in the deal. Ok, Lewis didn't have much left in the tank, but he had more than Gil! And he was a better guy to have on the team.

That's where it stops, alas. He sub-optimized the 2011 draft in a major way. And, although I do like Nene, he should have gotten a little more than a buyers remorse contract for a guy the other team proceeded to sign long-term for $11m a year. I.e. he should have gotten a pick.

And then, when Ted had a panic attack, he again managed his owner and made the desperate quest for mediocrity that he wanted. Instead of profiting from the shortened salary obligations that Lewis gave us, we lengthened them again. And we brought in journeymen. In effect, he stepped us away from the goal of building a team that can challenge for a title. We no longer have the tools to use for that.

We'll be better this year than last year, I don't doubt. And people will applaud that and Ernie. But once again we'll be struggling to be in the middle of the pack. "We can compete with anyone," Ernie used to say. That's not even close to the same as saying "we are building a foundation to compete for a title."

[payitforward]

I don't mean to go on and on in the same vein, but ask yourself whether you wouldn't prefer to be looking at a team that had Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried rather than Vesely and Singleton.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather have a team w/ a young guy like Landry Fields instead of a retread like Ariza.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather be looking at Jae Crowder or Will Barton instead of the empty space created by Tomas ("I was surprised I was picked so high") Satoransky and at Marcus Denmon rather than A.J. Price. And at Machado only partially guaranteed. Guys where you have a chance to get lucky, which you plain don't w/ Price.

And ask yourself why we didn't even make an effort or a gesture in the direction of Ilyasova.

The reasons are simple. Ernie ain't taking any chances. He's happy to take mediocrity in exchange for a chance to contend down the line. When we don't excel, he can tell his owner "look, this was what you wanted me to do. I did my job; it's on you if we don't become a top team not on me."

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I don't mean to go on and on in the same vein, but ask yourself whether you wouldn't prefer to be looking at a team that had Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried rather than Vesely and Singleton.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather have a team w/ a young guy like Landry Fields instead of a retread like Ariza.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather be looking at Jae Crowder or Will Barton instead of the empty space created by Tomas ("I was surprised I was picked so high") Satoransky and at Marcus Denmon rather than A.J. Price. And at Machado only partially guaranteed. Guys where you have a chance to get lucky, which you plain don't w/ Price.

And ask yourself why we didn't even make an effort or a gesture in the direction of Ilyasova.

The reasons are simple. Ernie ain't taking any chances. He's happy to take mediocrity in exchange for a chance to contend down the line. When we don't excel, he can tell his owner "look, this was what you wanted me to do. I did my job; it's on you if we don't become a top team not on me."

payitforward, I think you are spot on. I don't fault EG because one thing he can do right is whatever it takes to keep his job. No matter how ineffectual he has been or may be moving forward, EG is adept at keeping his job.

I put it squarely on the owner. We can't blame Abe any longer. The buck stops with Ted Leonsis. The team is conservatively moving toward good business by projecting professionalism, while tempering expectations. That is the way Ted Leonsis wants things for his team, that by Ted's meager reckoning cannot attract any decent free agents,

[closg00]

Excellent posts PIF, you really summed-up the thoughts of many on this board

Thw Grunfeld-go-round that you described will continue until Ted wises-up ( unlikely,he would be happy just selling tickets), or Grunfeld retires.

[hands11]

I don't mean to go on and on in the same vein, but ask yourself whether you wouldn't prefer to be looking at a team that had Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried rather than Vesely and Singleton.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather have a team w/ a young guy like Landry Fields instead of a retread like Ariza.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather be looking at Jae Crowder or Will Barton instead of the empty space created by Tomas ("I was surprised I was picked so high") Satoransky and at Marcus Denmon rather than A.J. Price. And at Machado only partially guaranteed. Guys where you have a chance to get lucky, which you plain don't w/ Price.

And ask yourself why we didn't even make an effort or a gesture in the direction of Ilyasova.

The reasons are simple. Ernie ain't taking any chances. He's happy to take mediocrity in exchange for a chance to contend down the line. When we don't excel, he can tell his owner "look, this was what you wanted me to do. I did my job; it's on you if we don't become a top team not on me."

payitforward, I think you are spot on. I don't fault EG because one thing he can do right is whatever it takes to keep his job. No matter how ineffectual he has been or may be moving forward, EG is adept at keeping his job.

I put it squarely on the owner. We can't blame Abe any longer. The buck stops with Ted Leonsis. The team is conservatively moving toward good business by projecting professionalism, while tempering expectations. That is the way Ted Leonsis wants things for his team, that by Ted's meager reckoning cannot attract any decent free agents,

Now that's more like it. I do believe you have accurately described the chain of command and the plan.

The goal this year is to have a stable professional more mature team that plays great defense and makes the playoffs so Wall, Beal and the other youngsters can get their first taste of what that level of play is like. They need that experience heading into next summer so they can bust their asses to get even better knowing first hand how hard it is to win at that level.

From there they can trade or consolidate talent to add to the core of Wall, Beal and Nene.

Actually, even Wall is on trial this year. He has to prove he is a long term core piece.

[Nivek]

So, because Abe was the team owner, Ernie bears zero responsibility for the team he was supposed to be running? Man, I'd love to have a multi-million dollar a year job working for someone who thinks like that. You hiring? I'm happy to do no accountability, no responsibility work for mid-six figures.

[DCZards]

I don't mean to go on and on in the same vein, but ask yourself whether you wouldn't prefer to be looking at a team that had Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried rather than Vesely and Singleton.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather have a team w/ a young guy like Landry Fields instead of a retread like Ariza.

Ask yourself if you wouldn't rather be looking at Jae Crowder or Will Barton instead of the empty space created by Tomas ("I was surprised I was picked so high") Satoransky and at Marcus Denmon rather than A.J. Price. And at Machado only partially guaranteed. Guys where you have a chance to get lucky, which you plain don't w/ Price.

And ask yourself why we didn't even make an effort or a gesture in the direction of Ilyasova.

The reasons are simple. Ernie ain't taking any chances. He's happy to take mediocrity in exchange for a chance to contend down the line. When we don't excel, he can tell his owner "look, this was what you wanted me to do. I did my job; it's on you if we don't become a top team not on me."

Based on what we've seen thus far, I can't disagree that Faried and Leonard would look a whole lot better in Zards unis than Ves and Singleton. Although, I still believe that Ves will turn out to be the real deal—and worthy of a top 10 pick. I like his skilz.

Ariza may not be the answer at SF, but I'm not a big fan of Fields either.

By going with vets like Ariza, Okafor, Price and Webster the Zards clearly made a decision to try to be competitive now rather than go after youngsters like Crowder, Machado or Barton and wait for them to develop at the same time the team is grooming Wall, Crawford and Beal. That may turn out to be a mistake. Then again it may turn out to be a great decision. We'll see.

Surrounding Wall-Beal, what I expect to be one of the best young backcourts in the game, with hard-working, disciplined and smart vets like Okafor, Nene, Ariza, and trying to establish a winning culture now rather than later, is not a bad idea, imo.

[closg00]

The issue some of us have Zard is that the Wizards were too-lazy to find-out who the best talent might be to play on the team and chose clearance-bin rentals instead. Price was a low-usage barely "vet", Webster's Injury history is well-known.

The better-run organizations loaded up on prospects and will making roster decisions after camp-battles and preseason. In several cases 2nd round and undrafted players have already earned 3-year contracts.

If it turns-out that Will Barton (example) is better than Webster or that Machado is better than Price, they will already be on other teams.

[LyricalRico]

So, because Abe was the team owner, Ernie bears zero responsibility for the team he was supposed to be running? Man, I'd love to have a multi-million dollar a year job working for someone who thinks like that. You hiring? I'm happy to do no accountability, no responsibility work for mid-six figures.

But wouldn't "accountability" be measured by how happy the owner is with your job performance? We all do our jobs the way our superiors direct us to. A lot of the stuff we do at my office is completely idiotic, but I still do it because it's what they want to see. Just because a GM's salary is much higher than mine doesn't mean they same concept doesn't apply to at least some extent. Obviously none of us were privy to their conversations, but if Abe essentially said "I know Gilbert is coming off an injury and Jamison is getting past his prime, but I want those guys back no matter what", what was Ernie supposed to do? Resign because of his conscience? (Same thing with any other GM that may be directed to sell off contracts because the owner wants to save money, or something like that.)

I've said that Ernie has made some missteps (the Blatche extension and waiting too long to trade McGee immediately come to mind, although the second one still turned out pretty good IMO). But I do disagree with the thought that we shouldn't account at all for an owner's influence in the decisions any GM makes.

[Nivek]

So, because some folks imagine that Abe MIGHT have mandated specific roster moves over Ernie's objections, Ernie bears no responsibility for the moves?

Dunno, but that sounds absurd to me.

Those are monumental "ifs".

[LyricalRico]

Those are monumental "ifs".

True, none of us will ever know for sure what exactly happened behind every single move that was made. But doesn't that also mean that there's a large measure of conjecture from those claiming that another GM would undeniably have made different/better moves if given the exact same circumstances?

[Nivek]

Those are monumental "ifs".

True, none of us will ever know for sure what exactly happened behind every single move that was made. But doesn't that also mean that there's a large measure of conjecture from those claiming that another GM would undeniably have made different/better moves if given the exact same circumstances?

Well, any time we're talking about hypothetical moves another GM might have made we're in the realm of conjecture. But...umm...wtf are you talking about?

The argument presented was that Ernie shouldn't be held responsible for the team sucking because he was just doing Abe's bidding. That's nonsense for lots of reasons, but these two will do:

1) It's reasonable to assign responsibility to the individual the owner has said is in charge of basketball operations. In this case, that's both Abe and Ted. Ernie's title for the past 9 seasons has been "President." His bio certainly attributes team successes to Grunfeld ("Grunfeld's long list of accomplishments..."). His bio says Ernie's vision and leadership have been paramount to the Wizards' "success." His bio attributes specific personnel moves to Ernie. Whoever wrote and approved his bio (based on the tone, it mighta been you, Rico ) sure thought Ernie was in charge of the team's roster.

2) I've had a number of conversations with current and former front office guys, coaches, etc. If they were merely following the mandates of an owner over their own best judgement...well, it would be news to them.