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Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella

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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#101 » by hands11 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:06 am

nate33 wrote:Looking desperately for a silver lining here:

According to news reports, the Wizards' found this injury by being very thorough in their care of Wall. 3 weeks ago, there was an MRI that turned up negative, but after more discomfort, they had Wall get a second opinion. And that's how they found the patella issue. This may actually have been an example of medical competence.

Also, Ernie Grunfeld said that Wall's recovery will be "no contact" kind of stuff. Presumably, that means no game-pace scrimmages or vigorous jumping or running. But he should be mobile and able to continue to work on his jumper and to participate in walk-throughs with the rest of the team during training camp. He won't be completely out of shape and out of synch with his team when he does return.


Here is what's different.

This organization is not going to sell out to win now at all cost. They will keep there eye on the long term plan so I don't expect them to give up any young pieces. They will let Wall rest as long as needed. Same with Nene. The news does suck but it is what it is.

The goal this year was to build a base line and gel with an outside hope of shooting for the playoffs. Well the the outside goal is likely out of reach now. But they will stick to the other goals.

So now we have to see what they do.

They could let Mack go and bring in someone. ie Livingston.
They could move Crawford to PG. They do have Beal, Webster and Martin who can fill in at SG

It will be ok. It just mean they will get off to a slow start then they wanted to. I'm still looking forward to see them play this year.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#102 » by hands11 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:16 am

Wall was examined yesterday in New York by orthopedic specialist Dr. David Altchek after experiencing discomfort in his left knee and underwent an MRI that revealed the early stages of a non-traumatic stress injury.

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/22 ... z27oTrsFbI

Sounds like the did well to catch this early.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#103 » by truwizfan4evr » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:21 am

I don't think AJ price or Mack going to start we are going to start most likely Jordan Crawford. I guess we might as well look forward to the nba draft once again.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#104 » by hands11 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:39 am

While this will no doubt really hurt any chance of them getting a fast start, there is a potential silver lining.

With Wall not ready to start the season, Randy will be sending out the message..

Everyone has to step it up another level. Thats a call to all the younger players. Kevin, Ves, Booker, C Singleton, etc. Even Beal.

I think they are going to have to go to Beal right away now. He could even start. And why not. He was the 3rd pick.

Crawford and Beal could be the starters. Before the Wall injury I would have guessed Wall and Crawford were the starters.

Now we have to see how things go with Nene. If he is good to go by season start, that would help a ton.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#105 » by truwizfan4evr » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:00 am

hands11 wrote:While this will no doubt really hurt any chance of them getting a fast start, there is a potential silver lining.

With Wall not ready to start the season, Randy will be sending out the message..

Everyone has to step it up another level. Thats a call to all the younger players. Kevin, Ves, Booker, C Singleton, etc. Even Beal.

I think they are going to have to go to Beal right away now. He could even start. And way not. He was the 3rd pick.

Crawford and Beal could be the starters. Before the Wall injury I would have guessed Wall and Crawford were the starters.

Now we have to see how things go with Nene. If he is good to go by season start, that would help a ton.

Well that post did make me feel a little better.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#106 » by AFM » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:01 am

SHABAZZ MUHUMMAD WELCOME TO DC YOUNG MAN
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#107 » by truwizfan4evr » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:17 am

AFM wrote:SHABAZZ MUHUMMAD WELCOME TO DC YOUNG MAN

With are luck we end up with the forth or worst pick so i wont give my hopes up to fast.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#108 » by truwizfan4evr » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:23 am

I don't expect us to make any deals. In a interview Ernie claims we have a deep roster. So im assuming he means AJ price and Mack as being deep?
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#109 » by dangermouse » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:03 am

He saw an orthopedic specialist in NY. I'm going to assume that he isn't a Wizards medical team guy, and Wall did the right thing seeking outside help...

Hey, at least they got on top of this early. Could have played out much worse.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#110 » by queridiculo » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:41 am

dangermouse wrote:He saw an orthopedic specialist in NY. I'm going to assume that he isn't a Wizards medical team guy, and Wall did the right thing seeking outside help...

Hey, at least they got on top of this early. Could have played out much worse.


Unfortunately they didn't get on top of it early. Wall originally reported the discomfort damn near a month ago, and the crack wizards medical team misdiagnosed the injury.

Wall had to seek support from outside the organization to get a proper diagnosis. How sad is that? If the Wizards provided better care for their players this could have been treated much earlier.

I fully expect Wall to miss more than 50% of the season judging by this teams track record.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#111 » by rockymac52 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:43 am

Earth2Ted wrote:Blazers edge has a phenomenal breakdown of patellar injuries (LINK HERE)

Among the names of interest are old friends Jarvis Hayes (misdiagnosed as tendinitis, rediagnosed as patellar fracture, multiple surgeries, ..., bust), Randy Foye (stress reaction, missed 43 games, returned next year 100%). Blake Griffin also had a stress fractured patella which was surgically repaired. I think most of us would agree that he was able to get most of his hops back.

From what I'm seeing, I am optimistic that Wall is going to come back 100% from this, though it may take time. Part of my optimism is that this was diagnosed by David Altchek (see Washington Examiner), who is one of the big time ortho guys in NY, and more importantly, NOT part of the Wizards vaunted medical team.

But as for how many games he will actually play this year, who the hell knows.... :(


Fantastic article. Truly a must-read for anyone who wants any context on Wall's injury. With that said, I don't feel very hopeful after reading it.

It's tough to classify which category Wall's injury places him in, because the Wizards described the injury in a fashion that hasn't really been used in the past. Hopefully we get some additional insight on the details of the injury in the coming days for clarification. But for now, the Wizards described Wall's injury as in the "early stage of a stress injury to his left patella (kneecap)", and that it "could have turned into a stress fracture".

So here's what we can gather from the few quotes we've got from Grunfeld, Wittman, Wall, and a few others:
1. Wall has not suffered a stress fracture
2. Wall has not torn or partially torn his patellar tendon

So which categories from that article does that leave us with?
1. Broken and/or dislocated patella
2. Bruised patella
3. Injuries to the patellar tendon (strained patellar tendon or patellar tendinitis)

Thoughts on those three categories:

1. Broken and/or dislocated patella
We already established that he does not have a "stress fracture", which I take to mean as that he has not broken his patella (I'm no medical expert though, or even close, so that could be incorrect). The reason this section was included was because it is possible that Wall has a dislocated patella. However, I think this is pretty doubtful, because if we knew it was dislocated, our description of him having "the early stage of a stress injury" would be fairly misleading. If the "stress injury" was the dislocated patella, then what could possibly be the "early stage" of a dislocation? From my understanding of dislocated anythings, it's not a gradual progression, it just happens at an individual moment. Now, if the "stress injury" that Wall is in the "early stage" of is an actual stress fracture (which is probably a fair assumption, seeing as we also said this current injury could have turned into a stress fracture if we didn't catch it now), then that would mean that in order for Wall to fall under this 1st category from the article, that a dislocated patella is considered the early stage of a stress fracture. Again, I'm no doctor, but I don't believe that a dislocated patella eventually develops into a stress fracture. So I feel fairly confident that Wall's current injury does not fall under this first category.

2. Bruised patella
The article describes this injury as "a much milder form with no (severe) breaks". No severe breaks definitely fits the description we've been given. As far as it being a "much milder form", well, that's harder to confirm. However, I feel like given the information we have, it seems as though the Wizards are treating this injury as something that's likely a "much milder form" of a dislocated or broken patella. The "early stage of a stress injury" to the patella is probably a "much milder form" of a dislocated or broken patella. This category seems like a pretty good fit with what we've been told by the front office.

3. Injuries to the patellar tendon (strained patellar tendon or patellar tendinitis)
From what we've been told so far, there hasn't been any indication that this is an issue with the patellar tendon. We've been lead to believe that it could have lead to a stress fracture, which is different than a torn patellar tendon (although it's possible that they go hand in hand). While this category is different than torn or partially torn patellar tendons, it's of the same basic family of injuries. So unless we have been grossly mislead by the front office and Wall himself, then this is not his current injury. Note that in his rookie season, Wall missed 12 games early on in the year with what was initially reported as tendinitis in his right knee (current injury is left knee), and later clarified to be a bone bruise below the knee (and not tendinitis, apparently).


So unless the front office's statements on the nature of Wall's current injury were incredibly inaccurate, we can probably safely assume that he did not break or dislocate his patella, and he did not tear or partially tear his patellar tendon. Of the categories used in the article, the best match (and really the only one that fits at all) would be the bruised patella category.

According to this article (at least when it was published in December 2009), there have been only 2 NBA players in the last 10 years to suffer bruised patellas. A 22-year-old Quentin Richardson in 2003, and a 29-year-old Caron Butler in 2009 (bringing back some good memories yet?). Richardson missed about the last 2 weeks of the season, and returned the next season, playing 79 games at the same performance level (according to the basic stats) that he did before the injury. Butler bruised his patella at the end of October, and only missed 1 game as a result. The other few players who suffered this injury in the past missed anywhere between only 1 game to a month at the most. It definitely is not a severe injury, both in the short- and long-term.

So this is good news for Wall (and us), right? Well, maybe.

If Wall's current injury is, in fact, a bruised patella, then history bodes well for his speedy return and recovery, with no long-term effects. However, something doesn't add up with all of this. If bruised patellas in the past have caused players to miss anywhere from only 1 day to 1 whole month with no lasting harmful effects, why are the Wizards announcing that Wall will be sidelined for approximately 8 weeks? Doesn't setting his timetable for return at 2 months, when the most anyone suffering a similar injury had to sit out in the past was only 1 month (and frequently much less)?

You could take this discrepancy to mean any number of different things.

Are the Wizards being extra cautious with Wall from the get-go because he is our franchise player (similar to the Strasburg situation)? Do we know that he probably only needs to sit out 1 month at the most to recover from this injury, but we'd rather play it safe and let him sit out 2 months, just to make sure that he's truly 100% healed and ready to go? Perhaps we're scared after mismanaging so many injuries (specifically knee ones) in the last few years that we can't fathom doing it again, and would take extra precautions, above and beyond what is actually necessary, just to avoid a similar result.

Or perhaps we're simply setting the timetable for Wall's return at the absolute maximum amount, so that for once, one of our players will return from an injury BEFORE he was initially expected to. After numerous players in our franchise's recent history have been sidelined well beyond their initially expected return date, having a player come back early for once would be a nice breath of fresh air, and it could possibly make fans more pleased with our medical staff's performance.

Or maybe the Wizards haven't been entirely forthcoming about Wall's current injury. What if our front office left out some key details in their comments yesterday that would have lead us to believe that the injury falls into a different category from that article? What if we know that his injury is more severe than a simple bruised patella, but we don't want all hope to be lost for our team and fan base just yet? 8 weeks gives us plenty of time to hope for a miraculous recovery by Wall, simply by resting, and the more severe problem could go away. Or if it hasn't gotten any better after 8 weeks, then we know we tried all we could, but it's definitely going to require season-ending surgery. Delaying the inevitable. Making sure the team and the fans don't completely give up on the season before it even begins. Crossing our fingers and praying that somehow by simply resting, Wall is able to fully recover in 2 months time, and we can avoid surgery.


I think there's a good chance that there's some truth in all of those explanations. Only time will tell which is the real reason. But there's something strange going on here, and it's not fooling me.

If Wall's injury was as minor as they've described it so far, then there would be no need for us to announce that he's expected to miss approximately 8 weeks. Announcing that he, at the very least, won't participate in any preseason games would have given him an entire month of rest, and most likely he would have been ready to go for the start of the season. And if he somehow hadn't healed by then (making him the owner of the slowest healing bruised patella in the history of the NBA), then at the time we could have held him out for more regular season games as needed. I believe that we might just be being overly cautious, similar to the Strasburg situation, and arguably rightfully so, considering how important Wall is to this franchise's long-term success. But this is simply above and beyond what would be necessary, even if we're taking a cautious approach. This injury simply has to be more than a bruised patella. I'm sure you can diagnose the severity of bruised patellas, and maybe the one Caron Butler suffered a few years ago was very very minor, whereas the one Wall is currently suffering from is undoubtedly more severe. But even if that's the case, 2 months?! It's overkill. In my opinion, it's most likely an indication that we know this injury is much more severe than a simple bruised patella, but we don't want to come out and say it yet. We're delaying the inevitable.

I'm not a betting man, but after reading that article and thinking it all through, I think we are being mislead by the front office on this injury, and I sadly now expect Wall to end up having season-ending surgery sometime in December. Hopefully in a month or two I can come back to this thread and laugh about how paranoid and wrong I was, but I don't expect that to be the case.

Here we go again...
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#112 » by closg00 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:29 pm

Mike Lee is reporting that we will probably look to sign someone.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... o-regroup/
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#113 » by gesa2 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:34 pm

As a family doc, I'm not an expert on this, but to me, "early stages of stress injury" should be taken to mean that Wall has a stress fracture but it's on the mildest end of the spectrum. A stress fracture isn't a traumatic injury but an overuse one, and most often happens when an athlete steps up his training regimen. The muscles and tendons remodel and become stronger faster than the insertion of the tendon on the bone can, and it results in bony injury.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#114 » by payitforward » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:03 pm

closg00 wrote:Mike Lee is reporting that we will probably look to sign someone.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... o-regroup/

From the article: "Wall’s injury perhaps gives Steven Gray a better chance of making the team on a partially guaranteed deal through the first month of the season. The Wizards will probably look to sign another point guard, primarily for depth, during the grueling practice schedule ahead. Some available free agents include Jannero Pargo, Earl Boykins and Lester Hudson, but they could also wait and see which players get cut from other rosters in the next few weeks.

"“We’ll look around see who’s available and who’s out there. If the right player becomes available we would consider somebody else, but we feel good about the players that we currently have on the roster,” Grunfeld said. “We have a deeper roster right now and we have a lot of players at a lot of positions. This isn’t about one player taking for John. It’s going to be a whole team effort.”"

What a list of probables! Yikes. But... it's Lee's list not Ernie's. What Ernie says is BS, of course -- how could he "feel good about the players... on the roster" at point guard? But it's the right thing to say if he intends to look at a trade. Don't want to seem desperate (even if everyone knows you are! :) ).

I'd rather see Gray on the team than anyone on Lee's list, and I'd rather see Hudson than either Boykins or Pargo.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#115 » by truwizfan4evr » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:08 pm

Who could we sign in free agent now?
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#116 » by Knighthonor » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:55 pm

so what team will Wall be traded to?

because its bound to happen.
this kind of situation always happen to the Wizards, and the star player always get traded away.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#117 » by hands11 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:14 pm

truwizfan4evr wrote:
hands11 wrote:While this will no doubt really hurt any chance of them getting a fast start, there is a potential silver lining.

With Wall not ready to start the season, Randy will be sending out the message..

Everyone has to step it up another level. Thats a call to all the younger players. Kevin, Ves, Booker, C Singleton, etc. Even Beal.

I think they are going to have to go to Beal right away now. He could even start. And way not. He was the 3rd pick.

Crawford and Beal could be the starters. Before the Wall injury I would have guessed Wall and Crawford were the starters.

Now we have to see how things go with Nene. If he is good to go by season start, that would help a ton.

Well that post did make me feel a little better.


Well imagine if Wall wasn't on the team. Beal would be there top draft pick who they picked 3rd and he would no doubt start. That is a piece that is a huge part of your future. I think Beal was going to battle for a starting job in camp anyway but I also believe they were going to make him work for it and bring him along more slowly.

With Wall out to start the season, the idea of making the playoffs this year is more of a long shot then it was to start with. Scoring is needed even more. SO why not start your top 3 draft pick then who was brought in for his all around game and shooting/scoring.

With Wall out, Crawford is their best remaining PG, player, passer, driving player.

With those Crawford and Beal starting, they should be able to handle things with scoring and defense. Beal can even help with rebounding. Crawford can be the one who drives more. Beal can spot up and pass. Set picks, etc. And Beal is the type of kid who won't fold under the pressure. This will actually get him more involved quicker.

That will be fun to watch.

Now we just have to see what happens with Nene. If he is ready at the start the year, that will stabilize the front court making things easier one the entire team let along Crawford/Beal. If they can hold down the fort until Wall is ready to return, they still could make something of this season. But everyone has to step up. More Kevin and Booker scoring.

Martin and Webster should be enough to back up Beal.
The question is PG. Crawford could play 30 plus minutes easy. Are AJ and Mack enough to back him up ?

For me, I would be more comfortable with there was a different combo backing up PG. AJ and Livingston would seem better. And when Wall returns, you would have two vet back there to help him develop.

All is not lost just yet. Lets see what happens with Nene. And lets see how players look in preseason. So far all we have over the off-season are questions. What about injuries regarding Nene, Okafor and Webster. Now the Wall news. Once they start playing, we can get some good news.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#118 » by rockymac52 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:36 pm

So let's say Wall misses all of November.

We have 14 games in November (1 of them is October, but you get what I'm saying). For those of us who thought we were a playoff team this season, it seemed like the consensus is we'd be hovering around .500 all season. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less. So that means if we want to stay "on pace" for the playoffs while Wall is out, we'd want to go 7-7.

Part of it all depends on the strength of the opponents at the time and all that, but that's going to complicate things for us right now, so it's not worth worrying about. Now, if we're that much better with Wall than without him, then we should expect some improvement in our record once he comes back in December. So maybe we should be hoping for something like 6-8 or 5-9 instead. Only the difference of 2 games, very early on in the season, and while they all count the same at the end of the regular season, we clearly would have plenty of time to dig out of that 2 game hole. Also, Wall could definitely come back earlier than December 1st, whether it's a few days or a week or even two. But let's assume the worst for now (other than the possibility of a more serious long-term injury requiring surgery).

Here's our first 14 games:

@ Cleveland
Boston
@ Boston
Milwaukee
@ Indiana
@ Charlotte
@ Dallas
Utah
Indiana
@ Atlanta
Charlotte
San Antonio
Portland
@ New York

So I'll remain optimistic on the season as a whole if we end up 5-9 in this stretch, and Wall returns thereafter and is fully healed. Maybe not quite "optimistic", but definitely hopeful. If we manage to go 7-7 I'll be thrilled.

So how can we expect to fare in these 14 games? I think both Boston games are losses, @ Indiana is probably a loss, @ Dallas is probably a loss (I know they're not nearly as good as they've been in the past, but they're hard to beat on the road), and San Antonio is probably a loss as well. That's 5 losses right there. And there's clearly plenty of very losable games remaining.

Even the two "cupcakes" against Charlotte are now that much harder without Wall. I still think we will win both. But that's all I feel that confident about (and frankly, I wouldn't be shocked if we went 1-1 in those games, either).

There's a bunch of toss up games that could go either way. That would have been the case even if Wall was playing, although we'd probably come out with a couple more wins with Wall in the lineup.

I think we can win 5 of those games. 5-9 isn't so bad (I mean, it IS pretty bad, but compared to what we're used to seeing and what we expect without Wall playing).
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#119 » by hands11 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:37 pm

truwizfan4evr wrote:Who could we sign in free agent now?


I think that was always the case given AJ and Mack as the back ups. EG said that before. Now it is just more likely.

I'm pretty sure they will go with

Crawford/AJ/ someone they add.
Beal/Martin/Webster

Until Mack proves something in camp, I'm counting him as not active or not on the team.

Now I know that back court isn't going to throw fear into a lot of teams and there are a ton of question until we see them out there, but if Crawford and Beal get the majority of the minutes, there is some talent there. Martin may not be a known alpha dog at SG but he has shown he can hit the 3 and he has experience. This was already the year he needed to step up and prove himself. So here you go. Show us. Webster has some shooting rang as well. Beal, Martin and Webster can hold down the SG slot. And Crawford can run the team at PG just fine for a month or so. He isn't the lost cause some make him out to be. I think Randy can get him to play the way he needs him to. It really come down to back up PG. Crawford could go as much as 38 minutes. So is AJ and Mack enough to handle 10 minutes ? Maybe. But I would be more comfortable with another vet back there instead of Mack.

We will see in camp.

If they good with Crawford and Beal, I actually can turn these lemons into lemonade. This will be good for accelerating Beals development. And if Crawford can show well at PG for a month, this could help open up the roster moving forward because they could get rid of one of the current PGs. No need to have AJ and Mack behind Wall if Crawford can back up at PG and Crawford is behind Beal at SG. That opens up another roster spot.

When Beal become the starting SG, Crawford role become back up PG and SG.

This may actually end up helping even though it isn't what anyone would have wished for.
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Re: BREAKING: Wall out 8 weeks with injury to patella 

Post#120 » by miller31time » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:10 pm

We have to look at this situation realistically and not optimistically. Things we have to understand...

(1) Even with a fully healthy roster for an entire season, we're no better than a 40-win team
(2) Aside from the Wall injury, we aren't going to go an entire season injury-free
(3) Wall will miss 14 games at the very least and even when he comes back, he won't be 100%

So, understanding those basic points, we're not going to make the playoffs this season. Ernie and company need to be thinking long-term and this injury needs to be the impetus. Sit Wall for the season. Give Nene the most possible rest this season. Maybe give him 40 games just for posterity. Let Beal get as much experience as he can.

We'll have a top-5 pick in the draft which can be used either for adding another young impact player or trading along with one of our expirings for a star (or near star) player.

Forcing the issue this season, hurrying Wall back and scraping and clawing for 30-35 wins and the 10th seed makes no sense to me.

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