#31 Highest Peak of All Time (Barry '75 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Dwight Howard '11 has been enshrined. We move on.

[bastillon]

vote: 88 McHale

[JordansBulls]

Vote: 1975 Rick Barry

Averaged 30.6 ppg / 5.7 rpg / 6.2 apg / 2.9 spg in the season

Averaged 28.2 ppg / 5.5 rpg / 6.1 apg / 2.9 spg in the playoffs and doubled the win shares of any teammate in the playoffs.


In the finals he averaged 29.5 ppg / 4.0 rpg / 5.0 apg / 3.5 spg / 0.8 bpg

[C-izMe]

Vote 87 McHale

[therealbig3]

I'm sticking with McHale.

Vote: 87 McHale

Wouldn't mind any year from 86-88 for McHale.

[Mean_Streets]

lol @ people thinking the '88 version of McHale was better than the '86 or '87 version. McHale lost some quickness and some defensive ability by '88 because of his foot injury in '87.

McHale peaked during the '86 postseason all the way through the '87 regular season right before he broke his foot.

[ElGee]

vote: Durant 2012

This or 75 Barry, with a McHale vote waiting in the wings. I'm fine saying Barry had comparable impact in his time, but I also find the early/mid 1970's to be slightly less impressive leagues, so I'll lean Durant for now.

[Dr Positivity]

Edit - Change my vote to 1975 Rick Barry

Vote 2008 Paul Pierce

I like Pierce the most of the wings around this area (Barry, King, Durant, VC, etc.) One of the most skilled halfcourt wing scorers ever with a otherwordly feel for the game and for playing on the ball, excellent passer, and his best defensive year. I know this season doesn't pop as much statistically as some others, but he was scoring 25ppg+ the year before, I really think his drop in ppg had everything to do with just not needing to take more shots rather than a real decline in ability

[lorak]

vote: Barry '75

[Lightning25]

Vote: 2012 Kevin Durant

I explained my reasons in either thread #28 or #29 but he is the best scorer available. He is one of the most portable players of all-time, if not the most portable. His all-around game is underrated and had great success during his peak by leading his team to the Finals. He elevates his team by allowing his teammates to showcase their strengths and that's what makes him special.

KD should have been above Pippen and I would argue possibly McGrady as well although I wouldn't disagree with McGrady being above him.

[Lightning25]

Vote 2008 Paul Pierce

I like Pierce the most of the wings around this area (Barry, King, Durant, VC, etc.) One of the most skilled halfcourt wing scorers ever with a otherwordly feel for the game and for playing on the ball, excellent passer, and his best defensive year. I know this season doesn't pop as much statistically as some others, but he was scoring 25ppg+ the year before, I really think his drop in ppg had everything to do with just not needing to take more shots rather than a real decline in ability

I would consider 2002 or 2006 Pierce's peak, not 2008. He was wildly inconsistent in that post-season until the Finals where he finally thrived and won the Finals MVP. I wouldn't put Pierce's peak this high either. He is in the 35-45 range for me, not 30-35.

[ardee]

Vote: 1975 Rick Barry

And Doc, would you consider shortening the thread interval back to two days?

[colts18]

Vote 2008 Paul Pierce

I like Pierce the most of the wings around this area (Barry, King, Durant, VC, etc.) One of the most skilled halfcourt wing scorers ever with a otherwordly feel for the game and for playing on the ball, excellent passer, and his best defensive year. I know this season doesn't pop as much statistically as some others, but he was scoring 25ppg+ the year before, I really think his drop in ppg had everything to do with just not needing to take more shots rather than a real decline in ability

How is 08 Pierce any better than Bernard King or Grant Hill?

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: 1975 Rick Barry

And Doc, would you consider shortening the thread interval back to two days?

I dunno, seems like we're having more trouble getting people to participate now than we used to. Would speeding it up help that?

[JordansBulls]

Vote 2008 Paul Pierce

I like Pierce the most of the wings around this area (Barry, King, Durant, VC, etc.) One of the most skilled halfcourt wing scorers ever with a otherwordly feel for the game and for playing on the ball, excellent passer, and his best defensive year. I know this season doesn't pop as much statistically as some others, but he was scoring 25ppg+ the year before, I really think his drop in ppg had everything to do with just not needing to take more shots rather than a real decline in ability

2008 Pierce over 1986 or 1988 Nique or even 1997 Grant Hill or 2012 Durant or even 2011 Rose?

[ThunderDan9]

Or 92 Drexler (!)... or Payton... or Frazier... or even Isiah.
Then what about some (forgetted?) big men? Mourning, Gilmore, Lanier, Thurmond, Cowens?

Frankly, I would be surprised if Pierce cracks the top50, let alone top31.
Was he even better than Havlicek? Or Carmelo Anthony for that matter?

[fatal9]

vote: 2012 Durant


Some stuff from previous threads on him:

this is probably the toughest vote, but I'm going to go with 2012 Durant.

the ultimate portable scorer who is amazing at playing off other players and really improved his iso offense, passing and handles last year as well. decent defender, good team leader and despite putting up 30 a night, I'd describe him as unselfish. lot of times you have concerns with stars having big scoring games and how much they are really raising their team's chances at winning, but not so much with Durant because of the way he spaces the floor and plays off the ball. when he gets going, he doesn't keep other guys from getting their opportunities. like Malone, he is a master at scoring in the flow of the game (did someone really compare him to Dantley?!), but he has really good iso offense too because of his shooting ability and length which gets him good looks whenever he wants.

his efficiency for his volume is incredible, 61 TS% in the regular season and over 63 TS% in the playoffs (league average was 52.7 TS% last year). probably has the best extended playoff run out of anyone left. his ability to take over and win playoff games is really impressive, lot of games the Thunder should have lost but didn't because Durant just came on SO strong when games were hanging in the balance. he wins you those 50/50 games in the playoffs because he can just overwhelm you with his scoring at a time in the game where it can be really difficult to create good offense. he went out a little quietly at the end and got shown up by someone who had a top 10, maybe top 5 peak, but we can't ignore how impressive he was up until that point. Dwight gives you more value in the regular season, but he's easier to make adjustments for in the playoffs. Pippen and KD are on the same level for me, Pippen is in another league on defense, KD is in another league on offense, it's about preference and with wings, I tend to go with a) who is more portable (both are amazing in this category) and after that b) whoever has the advantage as an offensive player (clearly KD).

I'm surprised people are overrating Durant so much. dude is terrible in terms of running an offense. OKC was much better offensive team when Harden was playing on ball as opposed to Durant on ball. a lot of times Durant was scoring off of Harden or Westbrook creating for him. his efficiency is looked upon as some sort of all time outlier because everyone ignores how often he turns the ball over. I'd much rather have someone with 55% TS and 2.5 tov than 60% TS and almost 4 tov. count me as someone who questions whether Durant's impressive scoring stats translates into great impact. I see Harden as more valuable player to that team, imo OKC would lose more without him in the game than without Durant. his ballhandling turnovers, average defense, lack of on ball skills, poor passing and inability to run the offense all raise big flags for me.

Durant vs strong playoff defense is not better than Reggie Miller (a bit worse volume scoring with far better efficiency if you include tov and better passing). Durant's stats overstate his skills. he's a great scorer but he's not a great player. not just yet.

Vote: 2012 Kevin Durant

I actually didn't know the deadline for the last thread was tonight but I suppose it didn't matter because Pippen would have won anyways.

Durant is the best scorer left of the bunch. He is the ultimate portable player and does not need to dominate the ball to disrupt the flow of the offense similar to Karl Malone and Reggie Miller. He can take over games in the clutch as he shown all of last season in the post-season and in the regular season. An example would be game 5 in the WCF vs. the Spurs where Kevin Durant dropped 16 straight points against the Spurs to take the lead in the series. Durant wasn't like Miller either like I've heard being talked about. Durant wasn't reliant on screens to score like Miller was. Durant creates off the dribble all the time whether it's in the 1st quarter or the last shot of the game. Durant just uses screens very well and takes advantage of it, similar to MJ/Bird.

His all-around game is underrated.

He is a very good rebounder and averaged about 8 rpg last season and with a front-court of Nick Collison, Kendrick Perkins, Serge Ibaka, etc. one of the best defensive/rebounding front-courts in the league.

He has shown that he can be a good passer as well although he is not great at it and he is not as great as say Penny, Hill, or Tmac were, but he was still capable. The 2012 WCF showed what Durant's passing was all about, he averaged about 5-6 apg in the WCF iirc.

He is also a very good defender due to his length. He contests shots very well and synergysports show that Durant is one of the best isolation/contesting defenders last season. He is also a very good help defender with rotating, communicating, and also his length to disrupt the vision of the offensive player with the ball. I actually thought Durant defended Lebron the best in the 2012 finals, he just wasn't disciplined enough so he got into foul trouble and couldn't guard him full time but I thought of all the guys that defended Lebron between Thabo, Harden, and Durant, Durant was the best.

His only issue is his ball-control. He does have good ball-handles to create off the dribble but he doesn't take care of the ball too well in terms of turning the ball over.

Now factor in the intangibles such as his great leadership ability. He always works hard and everybody always talks about how hard he works whether it's in the off-season, in practice during the season, whatever. People always rave about Durant's amazing work-ethic and that's what you want in a leader. Durant never calls out his teammates either and he always sticks up for them. This means that this leader will have everybody else's back regardless of what happens and as a teammate you would like that from your leader because not all leaders are like that.

Durant is the best scorer left of the bunch.

Not really. Gervin is clearly better IMO and King has a strong case (I'll still take KD over King I think).

He is the ultimate portable player and does not need to dominate the ball to disrupt the flow of the offense similar to Karl Malone and Reggie Miller.

And they both lose points for not bring able to lead an offense.At this point in his career I do not believe KD has the ability to lead a great offense (I mean right now Westbrook runs the offense more than him).

He can take over games in the clutch as he shown all of last season in the post-season and in the regular season. An example would be game 5 in the WCF vs. the Spurs where Kevin Durant dropped 16 straight points against the Spurs to take the lead in the series. Durant wasn't like Miller either like I've heard being talked about. Durant wasn't reliant on screens to score like Miller was. Durant creates off the dribble all the time whether it's in the 1st quarter or the last shot of the game. Durant just uses screens very well and takes advantage of it, similar to MJ/Bird.

Nearly everyone left can score well in the clutch. I also have to say that I have an issue with how you describe Reggie Miller. Those screens are way better than the iso (which is why he and Ray Allen were so clutch). Also KD off the dribble is a bad option mainly because he nearly led the league in ball handling turnovers. Super sloppy handles (couldn't even bring the ball up court at times in the finals).

He is a very good rebounder and averaged about 8 rpg last season and with a front-court of Nick Collison, Kendrick Perkins, Serge Ibaka, etc. one of the best defensive/rebounding front-courts in the league.

WHAT?!? What is your definition of "one of the best" because many teams and frontcourts rebounded better. Perk was never good on the boards, Collison is old and last year had his worst performance on the boards ever, and Serge is only average. Defensively either their frontcourt wasn't too great or the backcourt was terrible because they ranked 10th and had one of the worst defensive performances in Finals history (and were average overall in the PS). I'm not saying KD was bad though. He is a above average rebounder (but no great rebounder gets shut out on the boards as bad as he was in the Finals).

He has shown that he can be a good passer as well

Hell no. He's average at best. On the PNR he throws way too many jump passes (I've seen him jump just to pass at times), when the double comes he usually gets in back out in time but not fast enough for a shot to go up, and while he kept turnovers surprisingly low this last season on passes I don't believe he has really gotten better at it (I could be wrong though). For a guy with so many passing opportunities opened up because of his scoring you expect more.

He is also a very good defender due to his length. He contests shots very well and synergysports show that Durant is one of the best isolation/contesting defenders last season.

Completely agree. His man defense is the best I can expect from someone his size and build. He really worked hard to improve that (but his post defense is still lacking).

He is also a very good help defender with rotating, communicating, and also his length to disrupt the vision of the offensive player with the ball.

I disagree. His help defense is definetly below average. The way he played those shooters in the Finals was very terrible. Actually I'm pretty sure I've seen a whole YouTube video dedicated to his "defense" (if you can call it that) in the Finals.

I actually thought Durant defended Lebron the best in the 2012 finals, he just wasn't disciplined enough so he got into foul trouble and couldn't guard him full time but I thought of all the guys that defended Lebron between Thabo, Harden, and Durant, Durant was the best.

Thabo wasn't bad so IDK. That being said none of them were effective. Harden is one of the worst defensive players in the league, KD defended with his arms and wasn't moving his legs at all (leading to many fouls and a MWP tweet), and Thabo played great but was just too weak to guard Lebron off ball or near the rim.

Now factor in the intangibles such as his great leadership ability. He always works hard and everybody always talks about how hard he works whether it's in the off-season, in practice during the season, whatever. People always rave about Durant's amazing work-ethic and that's what you want in a leader. Durant never calls out his teammates either and he always sticks up for them. This means that this leader will have everybody else's back regardless of what happens and as a teammate you would like that from your leader because not all leaders are like that.

Completely agree here but Penny, Hill, etc. were great leaders and teammates too so it doesn't really give him a edge as much as it levels the playing field.

I'm actually feeling higher on KD now but he's still under Grant Hill IMO (and Grant is at 8/9 on my list of players right now). Past Dwight I'm not sure about the next few after that so he might be able to come up a bit. I don't see it happening though.

Westbrook is not who makes OKC a great offense, I think it's crazy to suggest that. He's the third best guy on the team to run the offense through but has the highest usage because that's the type of style he plays (needs ball in his hands to be effective). OKC isn't allocating their offense efficiently right now (especially early in games, I think Durant takes too much of a step back), but the bigger concern with them has been that they are a really inexperienced team defensively (they failed defensively again Miami). OKC was still a 50-55 win team and top 5 offense before Harden emerged as a legit star, and this is without Durant making the noticeable leap he made last year. Harden plays hand picked minutes for most of the game. I won't penalize him too much for playing half his minutes against inferior bench lineups because he plays well against starters too, but his minutes and role can be adjusted with how well he's playing. If he's having a good game, he might play 35 minutes, if he's having a bad game, he might only play 25. If he's having a good game, the offense might run through him more, if he's having a bad game, it might run through him less. That type of role allows him to maximize his offensive impact on the game. He has a different role than Durant, isn't depended on to carry as much of the load night in night out. And he was erratic in the playoffs too. Harden can have games where he can have 5/0/3 on 2/6 shooting, 12/6/3 on 2/11 shooting, 10/4/4 on 3/10 shooting, 13/3/2 on 4/13 shooting...and Thunder can still win those games against top teams in the playoffs, Durant can't. I see the value in Harden, think he's a borderline first option player on playoff teams, and definitely feel he's the second best offensive player on the Thunder but we're going overboard here.

And aren't we measuring how well players elevate GOOD teams, especially in the playoffs? Even if we buy that Durant is not a great guy to run an offense through or score without other threats (i disagree, because his one on one scoring is being immensely underrated), unless he's playing with completely incompetent players, there's no way you can keep a scorer like Durant from getting his. He can take and make a shot from anywhere on the floor. He was one of deadliest pullup jumpers ever because of his release point and shooting ability. He improved his handles last year. Became better at involving other guys in the offense. He isn't a guy who makes players better in a "I'm going to break your defense down and make plays" type of way (even though he improved that aspect of his game), but he makes them better in a similar way to Dirk, he's unselfish, passes well enough to get the ball where it needs to go (especially last year) and provides spacing for other players so they can play their game and create plays for a guy who can knock down shots. This is BIG for OKC because they are a terrible 3 point shooting team outside of Durant...did no one watch how bad their offense looked a year ago when he missed a few games? OKC without Durant would be a pretty brutal team offensively, average at best, because on top of taking away the league's most efficient volume scorer, they would have no spacing at all. And on top of scoring well in context of the team, he has another gear where when you ask him to score, he can absolutely take over games against any type of opponent. And we saw that in the playoffs last year and in the regular season all year. That's what separates him from guys who are just shooters like Reggie. Those guys can't take over games offensively like Durant does. They let the defense dictate what type of shots they get. There's a whole host of things that separate Durant from Miller, it's absurd to label Durant as just a shooter.

Mentioned reasons I liked Durant over Pippen/Howard in last thread. I like him over Penny because as I've been saying, Durant's offensive impact is super portable because his off ball ability (and he has great one on one scoring ability to couple that with and doesn't hold the ball to score either). Durant is more dangerous if he's playing with other talented perimeter players because he is better at playing off them (we saw this in the Olympics and see this with OKC). And similarly, I think he's more dangerous with someone like Shaq because again, he can absolute thrive scoring wise off the attention he gets because of his catch and shoot ability (combined with ability to take over games at the end with his scoring). Penny is better in situations where you need a creator and has more value on lower to mid-level talent teams, but is he good enough to raise those teams to legitimate contender status? The guys who can do that (LeBron, Bird, maybe guys like T-Mac, West and Kobe) already went a while ago. Defensively I think it's a wash, offensively their impact is on the same level to me but the edge goes to Durant because I see him making more of an offensive impact if he is around other players who need the ball (like you do on championship type teams) because he makes huge off ball impact on offense.


Doesn't seem like he has traction in this thread so I'm going to vote for 2011 Dwight Howard who I have in a virtual tie with him. Way too early for Baylor for me.

[PTB Fan]

Vote: '75 Rick Barry

[Lightning25]

Tallies

2012 Kevin Durant - Lightning25, ElGee, fatal9
1975 Rick Barry - JordansBulls, DavidStern, ardee, PTB fan
1988 Kevin Mchale - bastillon, therealbig3
1987 Kevin Mchale - C-Mizle
2008 Paul Pierce - Dr. Positivity

It has come down to Durant and Barry.

[Dr Positivity]

Change my vote to 1975 Rick Barry