Race to the MVP.

[slick_watts]

LeBron cannot defend a wider array of players more effectively, and their respective Iso numbers as well as their opponents PER confirm this.

Opponent PER is useless evaluating these two players because they vacillate between defensive assignments so often. Sites like 82Games.com, to my knowledge, only evaluate counterpart data based on the positions they are assigned in box scores. It's not uncommon for Durant to defend SG's if the SF is a better player (i.e. when Sefolosha defends another team's SF), and it's not uncommon for LeBron to be the SF on the court and defend PF's, or vice versa.

His advantages in the passing lanes are marginal if not negated by Durants superior shot blocking.

Durant's BLK% is much improved but I'd like to see that continue before passing judgement. Steals are better than blocks, and while LeBron is getting fewer this season I expect that to regress towards the mean and he will have an advantage there.

And while Durant does struggle off the ball at times, he's much better closing out on shooters.

No way. I know what Synergy data says but I can't agree with this watching Durant every game and seeing LeBron play. Durant is not good at closing out on shooters.

I'm not sure how you can argue for consistency(KD is numero uno in defensive win shares) nor LeBrons "reaction times" giving him a tangible defensive advantage.

Durant is at .083 DWS per 48 minutes.

Last season, .LeBron was at 092 DWS per 48 minutes.

LeBron and the Heat are off to a slow start, but even at his best having his best defensive start to a season with possibly unsustainable DRB%, Durant hasn't been better with DWS than LeBron all of last year (and the years before).

[SweetTouch]

updated rankings
1. KD
2. LBJ
3. not a single...

slick_watts continues to provide knowledge to youngstas

[zogster]

LeBron cannot defend a wider array of players more effectively, and their respective Iso numbers as well as their opponents PER confirm this. LBj is most effective when he's free lancing, or when he's defending smaller guards and Sf's. His iso defense, while good, pales to KD's and he isn't as effective a post defender. His advantages in the passing lanes are marginal if not negated by Durants superior shot blocking. And while Durant does struggle off the ball at times, he's much better closing out on shooters.

Did you forget the green font? None of this true other than the ISO and PER numbers, which Durant only has the advantage because Sefalosha guards the elite wing on each team. LeBron does not have Sefalosha next to him to guard the elite wings.

I may give Durant the advantage at blocking shots... with his length and height he should be better at it, but LeBron has stopped many a fastbreak due to the other player simply being afraid they are going to be the next victim of the chase down block.

Durant plays on Earth. LeBron plays on another planet.

[IG2]

Durant's been playing great ball, but his ascension to #1 is more about Miami's schedule than anything else. They have only played 4 games over the last 2 weeks, making it impossible for LeBron to maintain any type of momentum. Let's see what happens once a normal schedule for Miami resumes.

[theokie]

Durant's been playing great ball, but his ascension to #1 is more about Miami's schedule than anything else. They have only played 4 games over the last 2 weeks, making it impossible for LeBron to maintain any type of momentum. Let's see what happens once a normal schedule for Miami resumes.

If the Heat had played 10 games over the last 2 weeks people would be saying that its impossible for LeBron to put up numbers without rest

[swag2011]

Lebron and Durant are clearly neck and neck and neither one is "far away" from the other. Alot of people are saying Lebron based on the fact that he's the best player in the league, or what he did LAST YEAR, or what he's capable of doing, rather than what he has done since this season has began. Judging from THIS SEASON and THIS SEASON only so far, Durant is playing just as good, if not better. However, it can go either way, as i have already said no one is far away or on another planet from each other.

Melo would be up there with me if he could improve his efficiency a bit. Kobe would be up there as well if Lakers had a better team record.

[TheGarden]

Carmelo would have better numbers if he didn't keep sittin out late in games

[ibraheim718]

Carmelo would have better numbers if he didn't keep sittin out late in games

Damn bro you ain't going to let this one go, are you? Are you on his payroll or something?

He ain't winning no MVP friend... never.

Because of how he's perceived he's going to have produce at an insane rate to even get consideration and because he's largely viewed as a player who only plays one side of the court. As long as Lebron and Durant are around and guys like Howard, Love, Kobe and Rose when gets back are Lurking it's going to be virtually impossible for him to win an MVP.

[bledredwine]

KD's obviously the best offensive player in the NBA and currently deserves that #1 in the MVP race.

My list.

1. KD
2. Melo
3. Lebron
4. R. Westbrook
5. T. Duncan
6. B. Lopez (laugh all you want, the guy's been phenomenal this year and I always thought people were idiots for calling him a scrub. His offensive game is fantastic and he's a huge part of BK's success.)
7. Zach Randolph or Marc Gasol, who's been all-around just great. He might be the best passing big man in the NBA.
8. Kobe
9. CP
10.Rondo

I really hope that Dwight returns and plays like Dwight. The last game was awesome. He's got to be Dwight for the Lakers to win it.

[theokie]

Carmelo would have better numbers if he didn't keep sittin out late in games

He'd also have better numbers if he was a better defender, rebounder, playmaker, and scorer like KD and LeBron

[bbms]

Melo has 34% USG and Durant has 28%. Melo averages 19.7 FGA per36, Durant averages 15.4 per 36. Who's more of a stat padding? Durant is a player to have free pass to shoot over 20 FGA , he could do it to pump his scoring numbers up so re can have better raw numbers. He doesn't because his team doesn't need him to do it, because he became a player willing to be efficient.

He's becoming more and more like Dirk Nowitzki.

Carmelo would have better numbers if he didn't keep sittin out late in games

Melo can play 48 minutes ad average 40/10/4. He wouldn't have better numbers than Durant. Sorry. What separates Durant, LeBron and the other players that actually have a true MVP argument, is EFFICIENCY.

Melo's argument is based on team record, Knicks improvement, New York being a huge hype machine... But he is not a MVP level player, he has volume production, but what separates true MVP to players like Melo, is efficiency. MVPs must have big productivity, combinated with efficiency.

I don't want to see another Derrick Rose MVP award.

[Bravely Done]

Did you forget the green font? None of this true other than the ISO and PER numbers, which Durant only has the advantage because Sefalosha guards the elite wing on each team. LeBron does not have Sefalosha next to him to guard the elite wings.

Everything I said is both true and statistically verifiable, your opinion not with standing. Moreover, Battier often functions in the same role for the Heat that Thabo does for OKC, and last season for example, was often moved to Durant or similarly talented perimeter players when LBJ couldn't defend him or them.

I may give Durant the advantage at blocking shots... with his length and height he should be better at it, but LeBron has stopped many a fastbreak due to the other player simply being afraid they are going to be the next victim of the chase down block.

LeBron hasn't been consistent with his chase down attempts since his last year in Cleveland. He's not a better shot blocker than Durant.

Durant plays on Earth. LeBron plays on another planet.

Regardless of where LbJ plays, Durant has played as well if not better.

[airchibundo507]

Carmelo would have better numbers if he didn't keep sittin out late in games

He'd also have better numbers if he was a better defender, rebounder, playmaker, and scorer like KD and LeBron

Nobody is arguing that Carmelo is better than LeBron and Durant, it's that he is more valuable to is team, which is an arguable point and not getting the recognition it deserves. Melo has more blowout wins (by 15+ and 20+) than both players, and unlike Durant who manages to rack up 43 minutes in a 22 point blowout, the Knicks have large insurmountable leads in the third quarter causing him to sit out fourth quarters and capping huge nights where he could have erupted for 40+ points.

Outside of last year and 08-09 (both of which were injury plagued seasons for Melo where he missed a ton of games), Melo is averaging only 35.3 MPG, his lowest since his sophomore year.

Per 36:
LeBron 24.1 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 6.3 apg
Durant 24.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.0 apg
Melo 26.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.1 apg

Per 36, Melo's numbers are actually comparable.

Strength of Schedule:
Miami = 0.592 (#2)
New York = 0.538 (#6)
Oklahoma City = 0.508 (#11)

Road games versus Home games
Miami = 7-7
New York = 9-6
Oklahoma City = 6-11

Melo has undeniably the worst supporting cast and the Knicks are playing well above expectations. He deserves to be in the conversation.

[Bravely Done]

Opponent PER is useless evaluating these two players because they vacillate between defensive assignments so often. Sites like 82Games.com, to my knowledge, only evaluate counterpart data based on the positions they are assigned in box scores. It's not uncommon for Durant to defend SG's if the SF is a better player (i.e. when Sefolosha defends another team's SF), and it's not uncommon for LeBron to be the SF on the court and defend PF's, or vice versa.

Opponents PER

LBJ:

SF - 11.9
PF - 20.7

Durant:

SF - 11.2
PF - 14.4

And of course Durant's iso numbers are better as well.

No way. I know what Synergy data says but I can't agree with this watching Durant every game and seeing LeBron play. Durant is not good at closing out on shooters.

Yes way, and this has been the case for at least two seasons. LeBron has always struggled closing out, dating back to Cleveland. Synergy simply verifies what my eyes have already confirmed.

Durant is at .083 DWS per 48 minutes.

Last season, .LeBron was at 092 DWS per 48 minutes.

LeBron and the Heat are off to a slow start, but even at his best having his best defensive start to a season with possibly unsustainable DRB%, Durant hasn't been better with DWS than LeBron all of last year (and the years before).

Why are you bringing up last seasons numbers to make a point about consistency only relevant to the current season? In respect to this season, Durant has been the more consistent defender, which was my argument. I don't care what occurred in seasons prior, as it has no relevance to our conversation on the 12/13 MVP.

[Clyde Frazier]

Melo has 34% USG and Durant has 28%. Melo averages 19.7 FGA per36, Durant averages 15.4 per 36. Who's more of a stat padding? Durant is a player to have free pass to shoot over 20 FGA , he could do it to pump his scoring numbers up so re can have better raw numbers. He doesn't because his team doesn't need him to do it, because he became a player willing to be efficient.

He's becoming more and more like Dirk Nowitzki.

Carmelo would have better numbers if he didn't keep sittin out late in games

Melo can play 48 minutes ad average 40/10/4. He wouldn't have better numbers than Durant. Sorry. What separates Durant, LeBron and the other players that actually have a true MVP argument, is EFFICIENCY.

Melo's argument is based on team record, Knicks improvement, New York being a huge hype machine... But he is not a MVP level player, he has volume production, but what separates true MVP to players like Melo, is efficiency. MVPs must have big productivity, combinated with efficiency.

I don't want to see another Derrick Rose MVP award.

Durant/LeBron are 1/2 in the race right now, but have you actually looked at carmelo's #s? He's having the most efficient season of his career, and that's mainly due to playing with 3 pure PGs getting him easy shots and encouraging him to move the ball. He's also in excellent shape coming off the olympics.

[HurricaneKid]

You don't care what has happened for years, you only care about the first 16% of this year? Seriously?

[Bravely Done]

You don't care what has happened for years, you only care about the first 16% of this year? Seriously?

The first 16 games of this season are more relevant to the 12/13 MVP discussion than last season, the season prior, or the season before that.

Seriously.

[slick_watts]

Opponents PER

I don't think you're grasping what I was explaining about opponent PER. For players like LeBron and Durant it's useless - LeBron can be playing "PF" on the boxscore, but defending the SF. Durant can be playing 'SF' in the boxscore but be defending the SG or PF. Counterpart PER is useful to determine where the team does best defensively for lineup construction but in these cases it's too noisy. 82games does not go through video and the counter part PER doesn't "know" who was actually defending the PF play to play.

And of course Durant's iso numbers are better as well.

I don't trust Synergy defensive stats all that much but in Synergy LeBron's Isolation #'s are better than Durant's, currently.

Yes way, and this has been the case for at least two seasons. LeBron has always struggled closing out, dating back to Cleveland. Synergy simply verifies what my eyes have already confirmed.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

Why are you bringing up last seasons numbers to make a point about consistency only relevant to the current season? In respect to this season, Durant has been the more consistent defender, which was my argument. I don't care what occurred in seasons prior, as it has no relevance to our conversation on the 12/13 MVP.

Because it's more likely that LeBron's DWS is anomalous in such a small sample and Durant's is inflated, based on recent performance.

[Clyde Frazier]

You don't care what has happened for years, you only care about the first 16% of this year? Seriously?

Assuming you're responding to me, this thread is discussing the current MVP race. Only thing that matters is how well the team and player is playing this season. Is that really that hard to understand?

[theokie]

Carmelo would have better numbers if he didn't keep sittin out late in games

He'd also have better numbers if he was a better defender, rebounder, playmaker, and scorer like KD and LeBron

Nobody is arguing that Carmelo is better than LeBron and Durant, it's that he is more valuable to is team, which is an arguable point and not getting the recognition it deserves. Melo has more blowout wins (by 15+ and 20+) than both players, and unlike Durant who manages to rack up 43 minutes in a 22 point blowout, the Knicks have large insurmountable leads in the third quarter causing him to sit out fourth quarters and capping huge nights where he could have erupted for 40+ points.

Outside of last year and 08-09 (both of which were injury plagued seasons for Melo where he missed a ton of games), Melo is averaging only 35.3 MPG, his lowest since his sophomore year.

Per 36:
LeBron 24.1 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 6.3 apg
Durant 24.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.0 apg
Melo 26.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.1 apg

Per 36, Melo's numbers are actually comparable.

Strength of Schedule:
Miami = 0.592 (#2)
New York = 0.538 (#6)
Oklahoma City = 0.508 (#11)

Road games versus Home games
Miami = 7-7
New York = 9-6
Oklahoma City = 6-11

Melo has undeniably the worst supporting cast and the Knicks are playing well above expectations. He deserves to be in the conversation.

Carmelo won't be as valuable to his team as Durant is to OKC or LeBron is to Miami until he learns how to be a better playmaker, defender, and efficient scorer. The per/36 numbers won't really reflect that.