Race to the MVP.

[giordunk]

Melo is a clear 3rd in my eyes. He's playing a lot better this year in my opinion but I think that has more to do with his teammates making him better, instead of him completely stepping up his game. Although to his credit he is playing with a much much **** team than LeBron/Durant are. Maybe he can win the MVP how Nash won it but I don't think he has that same transcendental offensive impact.

Here's the thing. If you replace Bron/KD/Melo with Rudy Gay, a small forward who can play similar to all three guys mentioned, I think Knicks take the smallest hit in terms of team success. Miami defense crumbles, and Thunder offense falls apart. The efficient Melo we are seeing this year is a system player, so I think Melo does not have strong a case as Bron/KD.

I think for Melo to have a chance at winning the MVP he needs to at least win the scoring title on shooting percentages above his career average, and have a Top 2 finish in the East.

[King_John]

Now here is my problem with Melo. The reason he scores so much and plays very well on this Knicks team is because there is no second star on the team. He can play Iso alot of time and pass the ballout of the double team if needed. But Melo has a huge ego and once Amare comes back you will see the offense get stagnant again because amare demands the ball more and wants to have his fair shair of shots. melo on the other hand does not like sharing the spotlight with other players. That is the reason he is no MVP and also why he only got to the finals once.

[kamelion4291]

Now here is my problem with Melo. The reason he scores so much and plays very well on this Knicks team is because there is no second star on the team. He can play Iso alot of time and pass the ballout of the double team if needed. But Melo has a huge ego and once Amare comes back you will see the offense get stagnant again because amare demands the ball more and wants to have his fair shair of shots. melo on the other hand does not like sharing the spotlight with other players. That is the reason he is no MVP and also why he only got to the finals once.

Never got to the Finals.

[Tien]

As much as I love to crap on Carmelo I'll give credit when its due.

Knicks are number 2 team in the East right now mostly due to his efforts. He has no 2nd option.

Durant and LeBron have 2nd / 3rd options that produce every night. Melo has nobody. JR smith? Felton? Amare? Give me a break.

If Knicks win 58-60 games, with OKC and Miami each winning 60-62 games, Melo will be getting a lot of votes.

You have my respect, sir.

Now a lot would have to go Melo's way for him to actually win the MVP award, like the Knicks winning the East and having a number of statement wins over other elite teams, but all I'm saying is that he is in the conversation.

He doesn't need to win the East.

If Miami wins 62~ games, and the Knicks win 58~ games, Melo is getting a lot of votes.

Amar'e isn't even a legit 2nd option. When I look at OKC / Miami box scores, I know Westbrook and Kevin Martin are going to put up numbers, Wade / Bosh / Allen are going to put up numbers.

You have no idea who's going to legitimately give you 20 points on the Knicks besides Carmelo. When Amar'e punched the fire extinguisher and went down in the playoffs, who legitimately thought he'd be the one to make a difference AT ALL between loss and victory? Nobody, not even Knicks fans put any faith in him when he came back for game 5, rightfully so.

JR Smith is a loose cannon and laughing stock of the league, Felton is a see saw. Kidd is old as dirt. Chandler is just defense and useless on offense, no post moves. Amar'e is a broken skeleton. Steve Novak? Don't even get me started on Steve Novak, he made 3 three's in the playoffs.

[Tron Carter]

Shumpert working with Dave Hoopla while rehabbing might lead to him having more of an impact on this Knicks team coming back then Amare.

He's already an elite perimeter defender and his shot steadily improved throughout the year.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Melo just isn't in the top 2 right now. Being some where between 3-5 in the MVP race isn't a knock on the guy or a negative comment towards his abilities at all.

He is on a lot of peoples top 2, he's some peoples MVP choice right now. The correct reply would be he isn't in your top 2 right now but 3-5 on your list.

You missed my point. Melo fans are upset that we are downplaying his accolades right now. They dislike when people put him somewhere from 3-5. All i was saying that there is no shame in being 3rd in the MVP race.

I realize my opinion isn't the final say. The correct reply would be try not to sound like a jackass.

I agree with you 100 percent. It's not a diss to have Melo in the top 3-5 on the MVP list. Durant, Duncan, and Lebron are having great seasons also.


Not sure what your last comment is trying to imply. I'm assuming your trying to take a shot at me, I'll pass on that.

[Benedict_Boozer]

Melo can generate some momentum if he can take out the Heat this Thurs in a nationally televised game. No excuses for Lebron and Co. to coast in that one given the Knicks curb stomped them earlier in the season.

Voters will definitely be tuned in.

[TheKingOfVa360]

As much as I love to crap on Carmelo I'll give credit when its due.

Knicks are number 2 team in the East right now mostly due to his efforts. He has no 2nd option.

Durant and LeBron have 2nd / 3rd options that produce every night. Melo has nobody. JR smith? Felton? Amare? Give me a break.

If Knicks win 58-60 games, with OKC and Miami each winning 60-62 games, Melo will be getting a lot of votes.

This is what an unbiased post looks like.

[Luv those Knicks]

Melo just isn't in the top 2 right now. Being some where between 3-5 in the MVP race isn't a knock on the guy or a negative comment towards his abilities at all.

He is on a lot of peoples top 2, he's some peoples MVP choice right now. The correct reply would be he isn't in your top 2 right now but 3-5 on your list.

You missed my point. Melo fans are upset that we are downplaying his accolades right now. They dislike when people put him somewhere from 3-5. All i was saying that there is no shame in being 3rd in the MVP race.

I realize my opinion isn't the final say. The correct reply would be try not to sound like a jackass.

I agree with you 100 percent. It's not a diss to have Melo in the top 3-5 on the MVP list. Durant, Duncan, and Lebron are having great seasons also.


Not sure what your last comment is trying to imply. I'm assuming your trying to take a shot at me, I'll pass on that.

My thoughts here, but putting Melo 3-5 right now seems about right. Durrant and LeBron are still probobly 1/2. Chris Paul's great, but tougher to rank cause he's so different. Dwight's lakervilled himself out of the top 5. Love puts up good stats but loses a ton. I may be overlooking somebody but Paul/Melo fighting for 3/4 sounds about right.

that said, it's not unheard of for 3-5 guys to win MVP. It happens fairly often.

[King_John]

Now here is my problem with Melo. The reason he scores so much and plays very well on this Knicks team is because there is no second star on the team. He can play Iso alot of time and pass the ballout of the double team if needed. But Melo has a huge ego and once Amare comes back you will see the offense get stagnant again because amare demands the ball more and wants to have his fair shair of shots. melo on the other hand does not like sharing the spotlight with other players. That is the reason he is no MVP and also why he only got to the finals once.

Never got to the Finals.

My bad I meant Conference Finals

[fallacy]

I'll steal this from a column and put it here.

KD’s week was a less than his usual ridiculously impressive self simply by default. His stupid team kept blowing people out and taking away his minutes and thereby, stats. He still managed to average 25 ppg on 60.7 percent shooting (34-56). How? Because he’s Kevin Durant and that’s just what he does. He scored 12 points on 4-6 shooting while I was writing that last sentence.

(Also, take note of KD’s turnovers recently. They were an early blemish on Durant, but he’s got them under control. Since the Clipper game on Nov. 21 where he turned it over six times, KD hasn’t turned it over more than three times in a game. He’s averaging just 2.2 over his last six games.)

Take note of this though: With Durant on the floor this season, the Thunder are averaging 114.2 points per 100 possessions and 102.1 with him off. That’s a +12.1 difference. (For reference, the Heat are averaging 116.1 with LeBron on the floor versus 106.7 off, for a difference of +9.4.) But bigger than that, with Durant on the floor the Thunder’s defense is considerably better. As in a 103.2 defensive efficiency with KD compared to a 114.5 without him. No player this season is making as big a difference overall in terms of points per 100 possessions as Durant is.

Want to mention this too: The Thunder were expected to use KD a lot more at power forward this season with smallball lineups. How’s that gone? With 67 percent of his minutes coming at small forward, his PER is 23.1. With the 14 percent that have come at power forward, he has a PER of 45.9. I’ll email Hollinger and ask, but that seems pretty good.

45.9 PER as a PF?! Sample size and stuff, but that's beyond ludicrous. The on/off defensive numbers are insane as well.

[starvinmarvin17]

As much as I love to crap on Carmelo I'll give credit when its due.

Knicks are number 2 team in the East right now mostly due to his efforts. He has no 2nd option.

Durant and LeBron have 2nd / 3rd options that produce every night. Melo has nobody. JR smith? Felton? Amare? Give me a break.

If Knicks win 58-60 games, with OKC and Miami each winning 60-62 games, Melo will be getting a lot of votes.

This is what an unbiased post looks like.

i agree even though, even after hating on melo alot throughout the years you have to give credit where credit is due. and if they beat miami on thursday the momentum can switch to his favour

[airchibundo507]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus ... r.offset=0

+/- for the entire league:

1. durant +207 (702 minutes)
2. westbrook +181 (644 minutes)
3. melo +159 (568 minutes)
4. k. martin +141
4. m. gasol +141
6. ibaka +123
6. ginobili +123
8. kobe +122
9. conley +121
10. t. chandler +119

13. gay +113
15. parker +107
18. duncan +89
18. bosh +89
26. randolph +76
32. paul +71
33. lebron +70

interesting... considering some consider duncan and randolph to be more valuable than carmelo to their respective teams. not saying it's anything conclusive but it's interesting.

[kamelion4291]

+/- numbers deal with a player's worth to his own team. The MVP is generally regarded as the Most Valuable Player in the league, not to his own team. If you had Durant coming off the bench to spell LeBron, while Carmelo had me coming off the bench for him, his +/- will blow LeBron's out of the water. A player's backup doesn't make you a better player and shouldn't be held against them. When LeBron sits, there's usually at least 2 of Wade, Ray Allen, and Bosh on the floor at the time because they go to the bench near the second half of the first quarter.

[airchibundo507]

+/- numbers deal with a player's worth to his own team. The MVP is generally regarded as the Most Valuable Player in the league, not to his own team. If you had Durant coming off the bench to spell LeBron, while Carmelo had me coming off the bench for him, his +/- will blow LeBron's out of the water. A player's backup doesn't make you a better player and shouldn't be held against them. When LeBron sits, there's usually at least 2 of Wade, Ray Allen, and Bosh on the floor at the time because they go to the bench near the second half of the first quarter.

no, MVP is dictated by a players value to their team, or else LeBron would win the award every single year and MJ/Shaq would have won it every year. observe their +/- relative to their own teammates... that's the point I was trying to make.

as for your hypothetical, if a back-up is almost as good as the all-star they are subbing in for, I wouldn't consider that all-star all that valuable to his team. It's LeBron's fault he plays on an all-star team and now he wins championships because of all the talent on his team but that should be taken into account when considering his value to his team.

randolph has three teammates above him in +/-, win shares, etc. why should he deserve mvp consideration when the grizzles have a 2004 pistons' mold with four semi-allstars? why not gay? or gasol?

ginobili and parker have a higher +/- than duncan, lol and yet ginobili has played only 367 minutes compared to duncan's 531. why is it that duncan deserves mvp consideration when parker (who is #8 on nba.com's mvp ladder) and his 18/7 on 49% FG could also merit mvp consideration?

paul's team isnt good enough for him to be in the conversation, clearly.

[Ikcelaks]

Plus/minus is a stat that's primarily useful for a team trying to judge the relative effectiveness of different line-ups. As an individual stat, it has tons of pitfalls. Also, it is notoriously sensitive to small sample-sizes.

If you had Durant coming off the bench to spell LeBron, while Carmelo had me coming off the bench for him, his +/- will blow LeBron's out of the water. A player's backup doesn't make you a better player and shouldn't be held against them.

That's not how +/- works. It IS a dubious individual stat, but not for this reason. A player's +/- is simply the scoring differential of the time when he's on the court. Team performance while he's on the bench is not a factor. This does mean that players who play significant minutes with weak team-mates are unfairly punished (even though they might be doing an extra-ordinarily good job proping the team up while the good players rest), however it doesn't mean that having a good backup will punish you.

[NYK_89]

Gotta love how some idiots in this thread have said the Knicks get better with Carmelo off the floor, yet he is third in the league in +/- at 159 and on the season the Knicks have scored 131 more then their competition

+/- still pretty weak stat however

[NYK_89]

If you had Durant coming off the bench to spell LeBron, while Carmelo had me coming off the bench for him, his +/- will blow LeBron's out of the water.

No offense man but this makes literally no sense, +/- by nature only takes into account time where that player is on the floor thus the backup has literally no effect on it in any way.

[HurricaneKid]

Knicks are number 2 team in the East right now mostly due to his efforts. He has no 2nd option.

[quote="]
That's what it boils down to. Beyond the "shooting and efficiency ratings". Melo is our first,second, and third option.
[/quote]

Please explain to me why the Knicks offense is better without him in the game then.

You are viewing the game through an archaic methodology. The goal is to score as many points/possession as possible. And yes, the Knicks do this better with Melo off the floor. Its not about having a guy who gets all the points. Its a team game and it is better offensively without him, though its very close and I suspect will remedy itself shortly.

Still, he won't be in the MVP category at that point either.

[HurricaneKid]

If you had Durant coming off the bench to spell LeBron, while Carmelo had me coming off the bench for him, his +/- will blow LeBron's out of the water.

No offense man but this makes literally no sense, +/- by nature only takes into account time where that player is on the floor thus the backup has literally no effect on it in any way.

No, but a player that stays in when the other 4 starters leaves and is charged with keeping the boat afloat until the starters come back in is at a huge disadvantage.