Why I like Andrea Bargnani- An alternative perspective

[Black Milk]

Bargs is a very, very good player and we are lucky to have him. No idea why he gets so much hate. He's one of the top offensive big men in the league, period. Big whoop, his defense and rebounding is not the best, well he's just on the opposite end of the spectrum to players like howard and ibaka who have 0 offense but elite defense, and they are valued by fans across the league.

bargs just needs the correct pieces around him, he is a top 20 talent in the league

[Too Late Crew]

It comes down to this.

With Bargs playing a high usage high minutes role the Raptors have sucked. When he's off the floor and replaced by the supporting bench players on the teams that sucked (in other words players who are not good enough to start on a sucky team) the team has predictably sucked more.

So the most that can really be said leaving out all the advanced stats mumbo jumbo is that the only difference Bargs makes is the degree to which the Raptors suck. Personally I don't like players who make my team suck. I do'n't like players who make my team suck a little really any more than players who make the team suck a lot. I like players that make my team GOOD. Bargs does not make the team good. If he did the team ..well they wouldn't suck.

[Snooch]

It comes down to this.

With Bargs playing a high usage high minutes role the Raptors have sucked. When he's off the floor and replaced by the supporting bench players on the teams that sucked (in other words players who are not good enough to start on a sucky team) the team has predictably sucked more.

So the most that can really be said leaving out all the advanced stats mumbo jumbo is that the only difference Bargs makes is the degree to which the Raptors suck. Personally I don't like players who make my team suck. I do'n't like players who make my team suck a little really any more than players who make the team suck a lot. I like players that make my team GOOD. Bargs does not make the team good. If he did the team ..well they wouldn't suck.

well said. agree 100%. and the biggest problem of all(and this is squarley on bigcollar) is that the team itself is full of castoffs, salary wastes and 1 dimensional players. every single players has multiple, bad flaws on this team. and it is expected that a team has players with flaws, but when the ones we got are serious.

Kleiza-cant defend, shots out of games
Jose-cautious, cant defend
bargs-
demar-gets to caught up in refs, tries to do to much at times, poor defender
ed-weak, cant shoot
amir-fouls, poor shot
lowry-me me me me
lucas-see lowry
ross-youth
jv-youth
gray-sigh
fields-double sigh
pietrus-123 years old
anderson-jordan complex

this team has 1 starter on another team with bargnani and demar being debateable(depending on what other team we are talking about) and with demar and bargs they would only be system guys. Lowry lost his job in houston last season, so again there are only a handful of teams right now that would take him and immediately use even him as a starter....maybe orlando, lal till nash returns, dallas, utah...............................

[Thelonious]

It comes down to this.

With Bargs playing a high usage high minutes role the Raptors have sucked. When he's off the floor and replaced by the supporting bench players on the teams that sucked (in other words players who are not good enough to start on a sucky team) the team has predictably sucked more.

So the most that can really be said leaving out all the advanced stats mumbo jumbo is that the only difference Bargs makes is the degree to which the Raptors suck. Personally I don't like players who make my team suck. I do'n't like players who make my team suck a little really any more than players who make the team suck a lot. I like players that make my team GOOD. Bargs does not make the team good. If he did the team ..well they wouldn't suck.

Surely you can't expect one player to make a team suck, or to make it a good team...

Take any player that you would welcome with open arms as a replacement for Bargnani, save for two-ways game changers that are obviously worth a lot more anyway, well the Raptors would suck less but they would still suck. And yet somehow I think you would be all for it.

Say we replace Bargnani with Sefolosha, or with Battier, or with Gortat or Prince or Ilyasova, Chandler, or even Millsap, you think we would instantly stop sucking and start being GOOD? Would the players you thought were good become bad because they have less support around, preventing them from making the Raptors stop sucking?

[two5]

Lol PER & Win Shares are the ultimate player evaluation stats. Plus minus is garbage. No one looks at those.

[SkywalkerAC]

Call me an optimist but I really think that Andrea has only recently regained his conditioning and his shooting form is likewise rounding into shape.. The team is also just finding its way offensively and Andrea should gain efficiency as the team figures out how to play together. He is what he is but he is also better than what he showed to start this thus-far plagued season.

[two5]

Call me an optimist but I really think that Andrea has only recently regained his conditioning and his shooting form will follow. The team is also just finding its way offensively and Andrea should gain efficiency as the team figures out how to play together. He is what he is but he is also better than he showed to start this thus-far plagued season.

Well conditioned,not in condition, the guy just SUCKS period.

[Coconut]

Nice try Andrea.

tl;dr

[bonjovi0308]

Nice work OP. The problem is, Bargs is supposed to be one of our best players, but his impact has been mimimal (with the excpetion of that 13-game) in terms of winning, that makes him automatically a scapegoat. Torontonians have a culture liking blue collar hard working players who do the dirty work (Tie Domi), and since Bargs doesn't do the dirty work, he gets the hate.

People never accept the truth that: We only have a 1st overall pick 1 year (while we only managed to get pick 8 the highest), and how likely we can get a Lebron James type all star at pick 8??

On top of that very few true all stars would be willing coming to Toronto as a FA (even Steve Nash won't come), and Lowry sucking doesn't help either.

I honestly think I won't be able to see the Raps winning a championship in my life time. The odds are so high against us, and even if we somehow managed to get the all star and muster a very good team, the refs would make sure to do their jobs.

[two5]

Nice work OP. The problem is, Bargs is supposed to be one of our best players, but his impact has been mimimal (with the excpetion of that 13-game) in terms of winning, that makes him automatically a scapegoat. Torontonians have a culture liking blue collar hard working players who do the dirty work (Tie Domi), and since Bargs doesn't do the dirty work, he gets the hate.

People never accept the truth that: We only have a 1st overall pick 1 year (while we only managed to get pick 8 the highest), and how likely we can get a Lebron James type all star at pick 8??

On top of that very few true all stars would be willing coming to Toronto as a FA (even Steve Nash won't come), and Lowry sucking doesn't help either.

I honestly think I won't be able to see the Raps winning a championship in my life time. The odds are so high against us, and even if we somehow managed to get the all star and muster a very good team, the refs would make sure to do their jobs.

He doesn't have to be a blue collar player to get appreciation.

Blue collar player or not, fact he is is a well below average player.

He's Al Harrington at 10 million dollars a year.

[bonjovi0308]

I know i will get teased, but the more i think about it, the more i think bargs could do well for the spurs. Not necessary an all star, but a very good player who can contribute and have positive impact

[JN]

I know i will get teased, but the more i think about it, the more i think bargs could do well for the spurs. Not necessary an all star, but a very good player who can contribute and have positive impact

Andrea wouldnt even play 10 minutes wit Pops.

[Too Late Crew]

3-14 and 3 rebounds and a horrific mind bending team destroying game worst -18 othe +/- scale that seems so very important tonight.

Still like the guy?

[Rejected]

I won't read this thread but whatever it says you are wrong. Bargs will never work on this team. GTFO

[ilikecb4]

My theory is that Bargniani starting sucking every since Ozzy retired



How else do u explain his season so far....literally a **** s-h-o-w


like the guy can`t shot or pass or rebound or do anything


he`s so useless. I would rather have Lamar Odom right now....


Even if he scored 30 a game his intangibles are terrrible....opposing players love to bang s-hit out of him down low....


if If I was an opposing big, I would love to play Bargniani....doesn`t rebound, settle for jump shots,
plays with no heart or effort....


Bottom line is , we`re not going anywhere with him....It`s been 6 years...time to move on


end rant.,.............

[Reignman]

Nice attempt by the OP at making his case but it seems that he does not realize that raw +/- is GARBAGE when it comes to ball. At least use adjusted +/- which isn't great but much better than raw +/-. And then there's a couple of other ones you can use as well.

Nice first attempt though.

[gamer4Life]

The only reason Bargnani has had so much playing time is because BC is Italian and Bargnani is Italian.

Otherwise his career would be closer to that of Yi Jianlian.

[realball]

So basically the OP wants us to solely use raw +/- to assess Bargnani's performance, and just throw every other major statistic that we use to evaluate other players out the window. TS%, Rb%, dortg, ortg, win shares, PER, even basic stats like FG%, rpg, bpg, ast/tov, all of this should be disregarded when it comes to Bargnani.

[RedX]

Go **** yourself.

[ishoy123]

Nice attempt by the OP at making his case but it seems that he does not realize that raw +/- is GARBAGE when it comes to ball. At least use adjusted +/- which isn't great but much better than raw +/-. And then there's a couple of other ones you can use as well.

Nice first attempt though.

So basically the OP wants us to solely use raw +/- to assess Bargnani's performance, and just throw every other major statistic that we use to evaluate other players out the window. TS%, Rb%, dortg, ortg, win shares, PER, even basic stats like FG%, rpg, bpg, ast/tov, all of this should be disregarded when it comes to Bargnani.

It seems like there is some misunderstanding about my post. I agree with you that +/- is not the one-and-done stat for evaluating a player. It doesn't tell you how well an individual's performance is on the floor (I mentioned that in my post), and PER, TS%, RB%, win shares, and those sort of stats are certainly very useful to determining a player's efficiency. My focus was not on Bargnani's individual stats, there's been enough analysis on it already, and no one is claiming that he's a superstar. Having a high(er) +/- per 48, however, by definition means that a player's team is better on the court when he's playing. In fact, +/- has a very high explanatory power for a team's wins (Berri, David J. “Measuring Performance in the National Basketball Association.” In The Handbook of Sports Economics, eds. Stephen Shmanske and Leo Kahane; Oxford University Press) It captures everything else that isn't quantified, such as opening up the floor to provide opportunities for other players, and Bargnani certainly does that, as demonstrated by the dramatically higher fg% of his teammates when he's playing.