Would a league MVP put Durant or Melo in top 50 all time?

JordansBulls · Post #1 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:58 am

Would a league MVP put Durant or Melo in top 50 all time if they got it this season?

GAME TIME · Post #2 » by **GAME TIME** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:21 am

Easily.

I don't think they have to even win MVPs to be in the top 50. Both of them are well skilled enough to bump a lot in the top 50

Post #3 » by **rrravenred** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:38 am

Maybe for Durant, as he's already got an unproblematically impressive resume.

Not so sure about Melo. His bark's been bigger than his bite for a reasonable amount of his career (and mind you, I think his 3p% will revert back to norms a bit as the season progresses). Having said that, narrative often rules such things, and being the leading player on a Knicks playoff team (especially if they make a deep playoff run) will do wonders for his rep.

JordansBulls · Post #4 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:06 pm

rrravenred wrote:Maybe for Durant, as he's already got an unproblematically impressive resume.

Not so sure about Melo. His bark's been bigger than his bite for a reasonable amount of his career (and mind you, I think his 3p% will revert back to norms a bit as the season progresses). Having said that, narrative often rules such things, and being the leading player on a Knicks playoff team (especially if they make a deep playoff run) will do wonders for his rep.

I look at it like Willis Reed. He is considered top 50 as well based on getting an MVP. But then again he got a finals mvp as well and title.

Joe Curry · Post #5 » by **Joe Curry** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:23 pm

No it would'nt for either

Post #6 » by **rrravenred** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:08 pm

JordansBulls wrote:I look at it like Willis Reed. He is considered top 50 as well based on getting an MVP. But then again he got a finals mvp as well and title.

However undeserved.

Post #7 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:15 am

Well I look at all of this in terms of my own opinion. I long ago ceased to care about making rankings based on common perception.

So if they deserved the MVP, and got it based on their current play?

Durant would be top 50 yes. Right now he's having just an epic season that appears one more step in his growth that announced itself as a true superstar all the way back in '09-10.

Melo on the other hand, nothing that happens this year changes the past. In the past, despite the skills and the perceived potential, he wasn't doing anything worth noting relating to a GOAT list. So for him to make Top 50 based on one season, he'd need to have an actual GOAT-like season. Now he's playing great. He could be MVP if others fall off. He's not a GOAT though. For him to make my Top 50, he'll have to keep this up for some longevity.

fallacy · Post #8 » by **fallacy** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:03 am

Melo's resume is, frankly, terrible. He's been in the NBA for 10 years and has never led the NBA in any meaningful statistic. He's been out of the first round once, he's been to five all star games, won player of the month a measly three times, never made a first team all-nba, and is twentieth in active MVP shares

Durant is entering his sixth year and has already blown away Carmelo's achievements in the NBA

3 time scoring champion
3 time all-star (in 5 seasons)
5 time player of the month (compared to Melo's 3 in 10 years)
3 time first team all-nba (melo has none)
7th in active MVP shares (finished second twice)
2 conference finals and 1 NBA final in first 5 years

bbms · Post #9 » by **bbms** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:34 pm

If Durant wins this he certainly is top50.

3 times scoring champion(maybe 4)
4 times all-star
4 times all-nba 1st team
Western Conference Champion.
MVP
3 times out of 6 years in the league top 2 in MVP voting. 4/6 top5 in MVP voting.
10-13 is a top 50 NBA primes easily imo. Real GM voted his 2012 year as 32th best peak, and his 13 season is even better.

I think he's top50 even without this MVP award if he manages to get to the finals again and finish top2 in MVP voting again. He have a better resume than guys like Reggie Miller, Tracy McGrady, Dominique Wilkins, Alonzo Mourning... That are top50.

I don't know about Carmelo. Imo his resume is still thin. I imagine Carmelo might be the first MVP I can remember to not make All-NBA First Team...

Post #10 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:29 pm

Hmmm.

Melo, no. I don't think he's done enough. He's been out of the first round once (and an ATL ranking is necessarily invested in team achievements) and doesn't have the scoring titles, mad stat lines, All-NBA/Defensive selections, nothing.

Durant, though, has some consecutively deeper playoff runs culminating in a Finals appearance to go with three straight scoring titles. You add an MVP to that and it accelerates him past someone like George Gervin, for example, who is typically looked at as Top 50. Gervin's 35th on the RealGM Top 100 and he never made it to the Finals or had an MVP. Nor did he rebound or defend the way Durant does. So yeah, KD would definitely be top 50 at that point, probably higher than merely top 50.

Melo... it would depend on the season, I guess. If he can drag New York through Miami and into the Finals, well, that'd be something and, as Doc noted, the narrative would tend to have people discussing this otherwise. He hasn't historically been a good playoff performer, though (independent of team performance) and he doesn't really stack up in the other ways, so I personally wouldn't rank him top 50. Probably top 60 though, I mean he's been a very good player for a long time. I just think he needs 2 or 3 worthy seasons of accomplishment before I'd turn around a decade of not really doing anything meriting that kind of attention. It's kind of like McGrady, really; he's known for basically three or four seasons, in none of which did he have the opportunity to do anything with his team. So if you rank him (or Melo, for that matter) on the basis of talent and individual performance alone, they rate out pretty well but you start comparing them all-time and they back slide pretty seriously.

JordansBulls · Post #11 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:02 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Well I look at all of this in terms of my own opinion. I long ago ceased to care about making rankings based on common perception.

So if they deserved the MVP, and got it based on their current play?

Durant would be top 50 yes. Right now he's having just an epic season that appears one more step in his growth that announced itself as a true superstar all the way back in '09-10.

Melo on the other hand, nothing that happens this year changes the past. In the past, despite the skills and the perceived potential, he wasn't doing anything worth noting relating to a GOAT list. So for him to make Top 50 based on one season, he'd need to have an actual GOAT-like season. Now he's playing great. He could be MVP if others fall off. He's not a GOAT though. For him to make my Top 50, he'll have to keep this up for some longevity.

Why would he need a GOAT season? I mean guys like Jason Kidd, Dominique Wilkins, Willis Reed never had GOAT seasons either but they are all top 50 easily.

Post #12 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:08 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Why would he need a GOAT season? I mean guys like Jason Kidd, Dominique Wilkins, Willis Reed never had GOAT seasons either but they are all top 50 easily.

Are they?

Nique didn't make the NBA's top 50 list, though he's 41st on RealGM's Top 100. Seems he's one of the borderline players. To support your point, though, if Nique is 41st and he never made it out of the 2nd round or won an MVP, Melo would easily belong ahead of him. He's got hat 09 WCFs appearance, he'd have an MVP... and unless he borked out in the first round in his MVP season, he'd probably have another really strong playoff run to hang his hat on, too.

EDIT: Hmm.. The more I think about this, the more I want to see how this season turns out. Top 50 is a pretty wide stretch, I may have to reconsider what I said about Melo.

Post #13 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:05 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Well I look at all of this in terms of my own opinion. I long ago ceased to care about making rankings based on common perception.

So if they deserved the MVP, and got it based on their current play?

Durant would be top 50 yes. Right now he's having just an epic season that appears one more step in his growth that announced itself as a true superstar all the way back in '09-10.

Melo on the other hand, nothing that happens this year changes the past. In the past, despite the skills and the perceived potential, he wasn't doing anything worth noting relating to a GOAT list. So for him to make Top 50 based on one season, he'd need to have an actual GOAT-like season. Now he's playing great. He could be MVP if others fall off. He's not a GOAT though. For him to make my Top 50, he'll have to keep this up for some longevity.

Why would he need a GOAT season? I mean guys like Jason Kidd, Dominique Wilkins, Willis Reed never had GOAT seasons either but they are all top 50 easily.

Read the bold sentence.

You don't need a GOAT season if you've got longevity. Melo, despite his believers thinking very differently, has no longevity playing at an HOF level.

Also, "Top 50 easily". Interesting you say that given how much you let Reed's MVP/Finals MVP affect you. He shouldn't have either of those things, and if he didn't, would you see him as a Top 50 "easily" lock?

I also don't see Nique as someone easily clearly the Top 50 ftr.

TheKingOfVa360 · Post #14 » by **TheKingOfVa360** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:36 pm

Both would make the top 50 but of course the typical Melo realgm haters feel Melo has to have an all time great season to make the top 50. He has never missed the playoffs, he will retire as probably an 8 or 9 time all star, and will have good career numbers. Melo will make the top 50 even if the majority of realgm doesn't want him to.

Post #15 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:28 am

TheKingOfVa360 wrote:Both would make the top 50 but of course the typical Melo realgm haters feel Melo has to have an all time great season to make the top 50. He has never missed the playoffs, he will retire as probably an 8 or 9 time all star, and will have good career numbers. Melo will make the top 50 even if the majority of realgm doesn't want him to.

I don't really know why I feel compelled to respond to comments that talk about "haters" any more given that anyone who thinks that way himself has a bias in the other direction, but...

This is not about what others think for me. It's about what I think. To me Melo's typical impact before this season in his career has been south of all-star levels. So if you acknowledge that, why would you expect me to see Melo as a Top 50 player simply based on one really nice season? It's not a matter of me being stubborn, for if that were the case, I'd be "hating" on the guy's current impact.

Gideon · Post #16 » by **Gideon** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:37 am

Durant would be top 50 if he never played another game. He would already have at least one MVP if not for playing in the same time period as LeBron who is a once-in-a-generation talent... Durant is an amazing player, who is going to finish top 20 all-time at the bare minimum unless something crazy happens.

Melo is a totally different case... he's just not nearly on that level. Even this season, when people are so thrilled with him, he's leading the league in usage yet only averaging 2 apg and 3rd on his own team in WS/48 (behind Chandler and Kidd). I know stats/advanced metrics don't tell the whole story, but it's not like Melo is somebody famous for making his teammates better or having great intangibles.

Durant is amazing... top 35-40 at this moment... watching him fulfill his potential is a gift. Melo is a very good scorer who is limited in other ways. These two players shouldn't be categorized together at all.

JordansBulls · Post #17 » by **JordansBulls** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:48 pm

TheKingOfVa360 wrote:Both would make the top 50 but of course the typical Melo realgm haters feel Melo has to have an all time great season to make the top 50. He has never missed the playoffs, he will retire as probably an 8 or 9 time all star, and will have good career numbers. Melo will make the top 50 even if the majority of realgm doesn't want him to.

I dont think it is that Melo won't be top 50 all time the question is would he be top 50 all time after this season if he got league mvp.