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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#801 » by Induveca » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:33 pm

barelyawake wrote:Again, this thread is of little importance because of the election -- so revisiting old arguments is a waste of breathe.

A lot of our spending is on health care costs and the military.

Of course, "spending" needs to be reduced. But, it's a matter of what and when. Indy believes allowing the middle class to take the hit -- because they are lazy. That's a recipe for disaster. Google "austerity trap."


When all the political BS is stripped away, the "fiscal idiocy" rests on this specific issue. It actually couldn't be more timely. An election outcome doesn't make financial problems go away.

Most in the US are ignoring the obvious mathematics, either due to ignorance (99% of voters) or convenience (politicians on any side).

By the end of 2013 the US will be paying nearly $US 300 billion a year interest on its $US17.5 trillion federal debt.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#802 » by Induveca » Wed Jan 2, 2013 4:08 pm

Gotta love how the new US "cuts" will save 600 billion over 10 years. The reality is that will grow substantially in a few months when it's realized raising taxes again will not be a possibility for a decade. Unfortunately the US is now locked in at 18% tax revenues of GDP while spending hovers at 23-24%.

If the rate of debt growth in the past 4 years continued, the US would be at 42 trillion in debt in 2023 (would never be allowed by world creditors beyond 25 B).

People need to demand real figures for budget cuts and savings. The US is poised for a tragic/avoidable economic collapse if excessive spending is not halted. Fortunately, there is no choice but for major budget cuts.

People will whine and complain, blame politicians as the elderly/poor/sick lose major portions of their benefits.

However we should all look in the mirror. Americans have far too long lived far beyond their means, 30 year mortgages / credit cards / car financing / 200 dollar cell phone plans / 150 dollar cable bills. The issuance and mass default on credit has caused the problem in its entirety.

Ironically, by supporting this excess debt/default trend the government now essentially owns an infrastructure on the brink of its own foreclosure due to excessive debt.

Time to stop playing the world policeman, implement major defense and healthcare cuts and focus on honest accounting. This could be turned around quickly.

People can downgrade to a Blackberry and basic HD cable for 10 years to pay for their own healthcare and have money left over for food.

Instead of attacking the rich, and gaining little revenue, the US would best be served by implementing forced savings accounts along with government backed personal finance classes for the masses.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#803 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Jan 2, 2013 4:59 pm

To be even more precise, if our productivity growth is 1.5% (a pretty generous assumption, btw), in ten years our GDP will expand to about $17.4 trillion (assume away population growth for simplicity). 75% of that is $13 trillion, so that's the target for total debt we should aim at. CBO apparently says current fiscal cliff agreement will actually increase our debt by $2 trillion, so we need to trim about $6 trillion off our current spending.

Or you could aim at about half that and hope some unexpected technological innovation solves the rest of the problem. You'd still need to trim $3 trillion off the debt. $500 billion in closing loopholes and other tax solutions means you have to reduce the military and healthcare by $2.5 trillion, or $250 billion/year for ten years.

I think that's doable. Maybe that's what we'll end up with after the next debt ceiling negotiations, $2.5 of spending cuts for ever $ of revenue increase. Democrats have agreed to something like this already.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#804 » by hands11 » Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:50 am

Congrats to the Rs out there.

Obama and Biden folded like a chairs.

Not sure why you'll are so afraid of having a Dem as president. Its actually the best way to have your policies implemented. If Rs are actually in control, they would go way overboard and massively fail like Bush did. That just hurts the country and gives your party a black eye.

This is a much better way to get what you want. You should always want this mix. Dem Pres, Dems Senate with a house Rs or Dem house and Rs in the Senate.

That is the best balance if you want your R ideas to actually get implemented in a way that won't blow up.

Separate topic. Will this disaster relief failure of Boner be the final blow that gets him kicked out?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#805 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Jan 3, 2013 1:12 pm

If I'm a Republican I'm extremely upset that I missed an opportunity and will definitely be looking to put the screws in during the debt ceiling debate.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#806 » by DCZards » Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:54 pm

hands11 wrote:Congrats to the Rs out there.

Obama and Biden folded like a chairs.


Why exactly do you say Obama and Biden folded?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#807 » by hands11 » Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:35 pm

DCZards wrote:
hands11 wrote:Congrats to the Rs out there.

Obama and Biden folded like a chairs.


Why exactly do you say Obama and Biden folded?


Didn't they just make like 90% of the Bush tax cut permanent ?

He ran and won running on 250K and they ended up at 450K.

I know it was a compromise but making the rates that high and permanent ?

Should be interesting to see how he holds strong or not on the debt limit stuff. We can't go through that again.

But another point was to highlight how the Rs shouldn't worry so much about Dems in the white house. They are far from the extreme lefties they are made out to be. Clinton wasn't and neither is Obama.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#808 » by DCZards » Thu Jan 3, 2013 7:33 pm

hands11 wrote:
Didn't they just make like 90% of the Bush tax cut permanent ?

He ran and won running on 250K and they ended up at 450K.

I know it was a compromise but making the rates that high and permanent ?



Yup, it's called compromise...and it's not a bad word as some of the far right seem to think it is. It's how you get things done in a divided country.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#809 » by hands11 » Fri Jan 4, 2013 2:21 am

Obama the dictator. He wants a blank check to spend as much as he wants whenever he wants. And like clock work, you hear it echoed by people calling into CSPAN.

Raising the debt ceiling is not a blank check to spend. Its called paying the bills for spending the Congress has already appropriated.

The blank check for spending was the off budget spending we did for the two wars they started and didn't finish.

And just to focus in on the real target again. Rs are not about balancing the budget. They haven't tried to do that since before Reagan. What they want is to take a bite out of the big 3. Paul Ryans plan didn't even balance the budget. This is just more of the same. Still trying to stare the beast, dismantle the big three and transfer as much wealth as possible to the top 1%.

I tell you what, they are persistent. Even after they took a beating in the last election. I guess they haven't learned that Obama is just going to set them up to get clubbed like baby Seals.. again.

I expect this mid term election to be very different then the last one. The Obama machine will get out the vote this time.

At the same time, I expect things to get really ugly before it gets better. I sense the Rs are getting really desperate as they feel power slipping from that hands. This may be there last chance to get this stuff done.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#810 » by popper » Sat Jan 5, 2013 8:59 pm

If true, this should terrify any American who desires freedom, liberty and the rule of law. The Democratic leaders of the House and Senate are happy to break laws and violate the Constitution for partisan purposes.

"Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has reportedly told President Barack Obama that he would back the president overriding congressional authority and unilaterally raising the debt ceiling.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) was more forceful: “I’ve made my view very clear on that subject: I would do it in a second. But I’m not the president of the United States.”


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... t-Congress


Democrats to Obama: Keep Constitution on the table in debt ceiling fight

By RACHAEL BADE and PATRICK REIS | 1/4/13 7:34 PM EST

The White House insists President Barack Obama can’t — and won’t — use the 14th Amendment to raise the debt ceiling.

But a growing number of his congressional allies are urging Obama not to abandon a potentially powerful weapon before negotiations even begin.

With Republicans promising another climactic fight over the $16.4 trillion debt limit in two months, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said Friday that if she were president, she would invoke the Constitution to raise the ceiling on her own — with or without permission from the GOP.

“I would do it, in a second, but I’m not the president of the United States,” Pelosi said.

Like many other Democrats, Pelosi is eyeing the language in the 14th Amendment stating that the validity of U.S. public debts “shall not be questioned.” Prominent Democrats, including former President Bill Clinton, have argued that language — added in the aftermath of the Civil War — gives Obama all the authority he needs to break the ceiling.

Realistic or not, the talk underscores growing liberal concern that yet another round of brinksmanship will hobble Washington and the economy — and force Obama into a bad negotiating position — just months after Congress went over the so-called fiscal cliff and then barely averted it with a last-minute tax deal.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/d ... z2H8ZKMLSn
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#811 » by DCZards » Sat Jan 5, 2013 10:19 pm

I'm guessing that most Americans would support the President using the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling if the far right wingers in the House are as asinine and uncompromising as they were the last time.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#812 » by popper » Sat Jan 5, 2013 11:02 pm

DCZards wrote:I'm guessing that most Americans would support the President using the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling if the far right wingers in the House are as asinine and uncompromising as they were the last time.


Even if it's unconstitutional? This concerns me DCZ because if most Americans believe that we can breach the Constitution when expedient then we are no longer a country of law, but one of men. This will surely lead to our demise.

Edit - We are borrowing $1 Trillion plus a year. Would a fair compromise be that we cut half of that?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#813 » by noworriesinmd » Sat Jan 5, 2013 11:40 pm

I've avoided this topic.
No party has a mandate.
There will of the American people is 52% for and 48% against. (approximation)
Rural America's agenda is different than Urban America (Hmmm. why they created the House vs Senate).
I've heard various things, like using the 14th Amendment or the President has the power to "coin" money so why not create 1T platinum coins.
Rs and Ds agendas are diametrically opposed. Where can there be compromise?

I'm totally against secession. However I am a small federal gov't guy. Individuals in Washington cannot create laws to better the whole country because the people in New York's priorities are different than the priorities of the people in South Dakota. When the Federal Gov't starts taking on too many roles you get what you have now. Politics is LOCAL, that is why the House will be Red for awhile.

The Federal Gov't role should be limited, protect commerce and protect the people.
Health Care should not be controlled by a gov't mandate - Medicare and Medicaid are loved by all, but policies are determined not by "us", but by special interest We point to Developed countries, but there are only two countries larger population-wise than the US.....India and China. The largest "developed" country in the world that we point to is Japan..we are 3 times larger. The next is Germany...we are 5 times larger.

The tax debate centered on "millionaires" and "billionaires", but in reality they were talking about taxing anyone making more than 200K (the debate was set at a false 250K for couples)....it was 200k. "millionaires" and "billionaires" make up 0.08% of the 200k+ people and 0.005% of the US population. We live on the fringes. A millionaire for tax reasons is anyone with a net-worth of 6.8M or who makes 598k a year.

I have no desire to get into this debate. Social Programs (by far) and Military spending are the elephants in the room that no one wants to tackle.

Ask a R what do you want to cut and they can't give you a program. They just say the Gov't spends to much.
Ask a D what do you want to do to bring in more programs, and they say tax the rich.

Problem with both approaches....they will not work....EVER.

The whole system is messed up, but if you know your history...Regan subverted Congress's (power of the purse) by doing the Iran-Contra deal. FDR wanted to replace the whole Supreme Court to push through the New Deal. Roberts probably voted for the healthcare act because the Supreme Court was at risk voting otherwise.

If Obama raises the debt ceiling, what will happen....nothing. People will bitc** and moan, but it will be done. A second term is bad for a President because you get used to unlimited power. That we where all Presidents go wrong.

Just remember, a politician's job is to get re-elected. Their job is to say "yes" to as many people as possible while saying "no" to as few people as possible. The reality is that you are getting the most polarized politicians through our primary system. How most districts are drawn if a R votes for the debt ceiling...they will be out of a job. If a D votes to remove a social program then they will be out of a job.

Ask yourself, should power be concentrated in washington or your home state. once you answer that question, then we'll start to heal as a nation.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#814 » by hands11 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 11:52 pm

popper wrote:
DCZards wrote:I'm guessing that most Americans would support the President using the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling if the far right wingers in the House are as asinine and uncompromising as they were the last time.


Even if it's unconstitutional? This concerns me DCZ because if most Americans believe that we can breach the Constitution when expedient then we are no longer a country of law, but one of men. This will surely lead to our demise.

Edit - We are borrowing $1 Trillion plus a year. Would a fair compromise be that we cut half of that?


It won't be done if it is unconstitutional. I think a person that was a constitutional lawyer would know what is constitutional. And if it wasn't he would get challenged. Kind of like Obama care was challenged.

No if congress would have actually have lifted a finger to help the economy over the last two years, we would have less of a deficit. You can't be the ones causing the problem and then crying foul.

You do realize the deficit is going back down and so is the debt to GDP. Its just happening slower then it could have.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#815 » by popper » Sun Jan 6, 2013 12:08 am

noworriesinmd wrote:I've avoided this topic.
No party has a mandate.
There will of the American people is 52% for and 48% against. (approximation)
Rural America's agenda is different than Urban America (Hmmm. why they created the House vs Senate).
I've heard various things, like using the 14th Amendment or the President has the power to "coin" money so why not create 1T platinum coins.
Rs and Ds agendas are diametrically opposed. Where can there be compromise?

I'm totally against secession. However I am a small federal gov't guy. Individuals in Washington cannot create laws to better the whole country because the people in New York's priorities are different than the priorities of the people in South Dakota. When the Federal Gov't starts taking on too many roles you get what you have now. Politics is LOCAL, that is why the House will be Red for awhile.

The Federal Gov't role should be limited, protect commerce and protect the people.
Health Care should not be controlled by a gov't mandate - Medicare and Medicaid are loved by all, but policies are determined not by "us", but by special interest We point to Developed countries, but there are only two countries larger population-wise than the US.....India and China. The largest "developed" country in the world that we point to is Japan..we are 3 times larger. The next is Germany...we are 5 times larger.

The tax debate centered on "millionaires" and "billionaires", but in reality they were talking about taxing anyone making more than 200K (the debate was set at a false 250K for couples)....it was 200k. "millionaires" and "billionaires" make up 0.08% of the 200k+ people and 0.005% of the US population. We live on the fringes. A millionaire for tax reasons is anyone with a net-worth of 6.8M or who makes 598k a year.

I have no desire to get into this debate. Social Programs (by far) and Military spending are the elephants in the room that no one wants to tackle.

Ask a R what do you want to cut and they can't give you a program. They just say the Gov't spends to much.
Ask a D what do you want to do to bring in more programs, and they say tax the rich.

Problem with both approaches....they will not work....EVER.

The whole system is messed up, but if you know your history...Regan subverted Congress's (power of the purse) by doing the Iran-Contra deal. FDR wanted to replace the whole Supreme Court to push through the New Deal. Roberts probably voted for the healthcare act because the Supreme Court was at risk voting otherwise.

If Obama raises the debt ceiling, what will happen....nothing. People will bitc** and moan, but it will be done. A second term is bad for a President because you get used to unlimited power. That we where all Presidents go wrong.

Just remember, a politician's job is to get re-elected. Their job is to say "yes" to as many people as possible while saying "no" to as few people as possible. The reality is that you are getting the most polarized politicians through our primary system. How most districts are drawn if a R votes for the debt ceiling...they will be out of a job. If a D votes to remove a social program then they will be out of a job.

Ask yourself, should power be concentrated in washington or your home state. once you answer that question, then we'll start to heal as a nation.


Well said. I'm in the "power concentrated in my home state" camp.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#816 » by popper » Sun Jan 6, 2013 12:17 am

hands11 wrote:
popper wrote:
DCZards wrote:I'm guessing that most Americans would support the President using the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling if the far right wingers in the House are as asinine and uncompromising as they were the last time.


Even if it's unconstitutional? This concerns me DCZ because if most Americans believe that we can breach the Constitution when expedient then we are no longer a country of law, but one of men. This will surely lead to our demise.

Edit - We are borrowing $1 Trillion plus a year. Would a fair compromise be that we cut half of that?


It won't be done if it is unconstitutional. I think a person that was a constitutional lawyer would know what is constitutional. And if it wasn't he would get challenged. Kind of like Obama care was challenged.

No if congress would have actually have lifted a finger to help the economy over the last two years, we would have less of a deficit. You can't be the ones causing the problem and then crying foul.

You do realize the deficit is going back down and so is the debt to GDP. Its just happening slower then it could have.


Congress did something extraordinary to "help" the economy " in the last two terms hands. They borrowed a trillion each year from future generations to benefit present generations. They passed a 900 Billion stimulus, bailed out banks, insurance companies, auto manufacturers, unions, extended unemployment to 99 weeks and a passed a massive health care plan that is supposed to reduce our health care cost. IMO most of the above actually hurt the economy but I don't know how you can argue with the fact that congress did a lot to "help" the economy.

Edit - Much of this was done in years 1 and 2 and less in years 3 and 4. I mention this because I know that your point was confined to the last 24 months vs. the preceeding 24 months.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#817 » by hands11 » Sun Jan 6, 2013 12:57 am

Kind of an over simplification if you study history.

States have abused power in the past as well. Usually based on civil right issues.

The system is actually still working even though the Tea people are mucking it up for the moment. States just passed laws that the Fed hasn't so states still have power.

We are still all better off united then we are divided.

But in a snap shot, it always looks broken at some level. Such is the nature of things. People focus on what is broken and not what works so it always looks broken. It isn't. Now it almost went way off track. Thats what would have happen if Mitt was elected. But the people got it right re-election Obama. It looked like a close call but int the end it really wasn't. It was a blow out because America woke up like Sam J told them to.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#818 » by hands11 » Sun Jan 6, 2013 12:58 am

Obama is a smart strategy person. I trust he will play this so the least damage is done to the nation while also hanging the Tea people and extreme Rs out to dry so the Dems can gain more seats in the mid term elections. I don't hate that the Tea people moment happened. The system needs a good shock every once in a while so the public can see what a failure some ideas are when they are actually turned into policy and power. Vaginal probes. Come on. :lol:

In four years Obama will hand over a lot of momentum. The economy will be in better shape. The debt will be reduced as a percent of GDP. He will hand over the keys to the next Dem president that may likely be Hilliary, the first women president. The country will continue to mature and improve. We will start to have a healthier middle class again and that will make the economy more stable. The overall stress level of the nation will continue to go down. The war and jail decade will end. People will get back to what is important. People. Family. Fun. I see some good times ahead for people looking to fall in love and start families.

Rs will return to their best more effective role. An opposition party that molds legislation on the edges but doesn't form it or implement it. They are part of the checks and balances which is needed. They just are not good as a governing party.

So far my predictions from Pre R primaries have happened as I projected. Here is hoping I get this part right as well.

Good times ahead. Just one more job to do before we get there. Dems need to clean out some more Rs in the midterm elections. I'm not so concerned about them taking it over yet. There is so much political advantage to watching the Rs stumble and bumble.

Do you realize the first thing they introduced in this new congress was Michelle Bachmann

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/01/04/bachmann ... obamacare/

Congress has now voted 33 to repeal Obamacare. This makes 34. And they know it won't pass the Senate and even if it did. Obama is not signing that. Hey, I get voting on it a few times for political reasons. By 34 times ?

This still is political gold. Thanks Michelle. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#819 » by popper » Sun Jan 6, 2013 1:53 am

hands11 wrote:Obama is a smart strategy person. I trust he will play this so the least damage is done to the nation while also hanging the Tea people and extreme Rs out to dry so the Dems can gain more seats in the mid term elections. I don't hate that the Tea people moment happened. The system needs a good shock every once in a while so the public can see what a failure some ideas are when they are actually turned into policy and power. Vaginal probes. Come on. :lol:

In four years Obama will hand over a lot of momentum. The economy will be in better shape. The debt will be reduced as a percent of GDP. He will hand over the keys to the next Dem president that may likely be Hilliary, the first women president. The country will continue to mature and improve. We will start to have a healthier middle class again and that will make the economy more stable. The overall stress level of the nation will continue to go down. The war and jail decade will end. People will get back to what is important. People. Family. Fun. I see some good times ahead for people looking to fall in love and start families.

Rs will return to their best more effective role. An opposition party that molds legislation on the edges but doesn't form it or implement it. They are part of the checks and balances which is needed. They just are not good as a governing party.

So far my predictions from Pre R primaries have happened as I projected. Here is hoping I get this part right as well.

Good times ahead. Just one more job to do before we get there. Dems need to clean out some more Rs in the midterm elections. I'm not so concerned about them taking it over yet. There is so much political advantage to watching the Rs stumble and bumble.

Do you realize the first thing they introduced in this new congress was Michelle Bachmann

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/01/04/bachmann ... obamacare/

Congress has now voted 33 to repeal Obamacare. This makes 34. And they know it won't pass the Senate and even if it did. Obama is not signing that. Hey, I get voting on it a few times for political reasons. By 34 times ?

This still is political gold. Thanks Michelle. Keep up the good work.


Hands - Just curious. Do you think most Dems would support Hillary for President after two reports revealed "systemic management and leadership failure" at the State Dept.? I know when Rumsfeld presided over the Abu Grabi fiasco that I and many other conservatives were calling for his head.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#820 » by noworriesinmd » Sun Jan 6, 2013 2:21 am

@hands - I now know you are not an economist and you need to not follow the hype (I'm not attacking you)

EVERY modern President has handed over an economy going into recession.

Bush - Obama
Clinton - Bush
Reagan - Bush/Clinton

I was taking an Economics class at a top 10 University when Bush #2 was elected and that was our finals question, to predict where the economy was going and what we'd do to solve the "predicted" recession.

I know I over simplified things. However, people try to make things complicated to enslave minds and to make a topic more complicated than it should be. There is a reason why we are not a direct Democracy (people...unfortunately don't always think long term)

I'd rather debate simple principles
1. If you spend more than you take in, you will run out of money.
2. It is easier to make a deal with 2 people in the room vs 20. (State coming to consensus vs Country)
3. A person will rarely do something that goes against their self interest
4. Deals that done in back rooms and rarely are better than ones vetted by a truly free market.

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