Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay

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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#121 » by mid-post » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:40 am

DusterBuster wrote:
Jodi wrote:If Rudy Gay is traded to a team like the Suns, Kings, or any lottery team he would average over 20pts game...The Grizzlies system doesn't fit Rudy that's why he hasn't shown any growth...


This is complete and utter nonsense. The Grizzlies have been BUILDING AROUND GAY since they drafted him! He's had a green light to shoot whatever and whenever he wants since the first time he put on a Grizzlies uniform. Don't give me that "oh he'd average a ton more if he was on some other team" garbage argument. There's zero evidence to prove it.


Actually this team hasn't been about building around Rudy since OJ was given the green light. His USG% has never been all that high either, certainly not for a guy they've supposedly been building around. And ever since ZBo (and Gasol) have emerged, he's deferred. But keep making up assinine assertions as though you actually know what you're talking about when you obviously don't. Since this is the general board and all.

Also, people saying Batum is better than Gay are just being foolish. You can argue value for sure, but to say Batum is better is just...stupid. The career numbers speak for themselves (even if the eye test isn't good enough for those of you who substitute watching games with basketballreference.com).

It makes zero sense for Memphis to trade Gay when he's bottoming out in what is a career low shooting slump. He's still defending well, rebounding pretty well and generally trying out there, but clearly he's not feeling good about his game. I don't think Memphis trades him at his low point before they even see how the playoffs pan out. This whole idea seems completely made up and/or a way to see what kind of value they might be able to get if they do have to blow it up after this season.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#122 » by Bskey » Wed Jan 9, 2013 9:23 am

mid-post wrote:Also, people saying Batum is better than Gay are just being foolish. You can argue value for sure, but to say Batum is better is just...stupid. The career numbers speak for themselves (even if the eye test isn't good enough for those of you who substitute watching games with basketballreference.com).


Come on now. You reference career numbers and then take a jab at stat heads in the same sentence. Batum has had a more efficient career than Gay, is that a big enough sample size?

Gay is a slightly better defensive rebounder and gets to the line a bit more. He also has .3 more steals and .1 less fouls. That's really it. Batum blows him away in offensive efficiency and is the superior player. It's not that hard to see once you get over the fact that Gay is a good player, but not a star.

What does the eye test show that the stats don't in this case? Gay is better at creating his own shot, but Batum has hit his share of clutch shots and game winners so lets not pretend that Gay being a "go to" guy is put in situations other players aren't.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#123 » by mid-post » Wed Jan 9, 2013 3:07 pm

Bskey wrote:Come on now. You reference career numbers and then take a jab at stat heads in the same sentence. Batum has had a more efficient career than Gay, is that a big enough sample size?

I'm not going to do the numbers game because they play two totally different roles...but Gay has a higher career PER.

Gay is a slightly better defensive rebounder and gets to the line a bit more. He also has .3 more steals and .1 less fouls. That's really it. Batum blows him away in offensive efficiency and is the superior player. It's not that hard to see once you get over the fact that Gay is a good player, but not a star.


Batum's been a role player his whole damn career. He's good at it, but there's a reason he's a role player. And Rudy being/not being a star has nothing to do with that fact.

What does the eye test show that the stats don't in this case? Gay is better at creating his own shot, but Batum has hit his share of clutch shots and game winners so lets not pretend that Gay being a "go to" guy is put in situations other players aren't.

Yeah, and it's a lot harder to carry a team than it is being a role player on a team with established stars. Gay has clearly done that (although not that well) and I really doubt the same could be said for Batum. Why? Because Batum is obviously a role player, just watch him play. He's a poor man's Luol Deng. Not a knock on Deng either, just pointing out the fact that it's a lot easier to be "efficient" when teams aren't keying in on you.

Gay is a better player than Batum, and people saying "lol, Batum is way better than Gay" don't know what they're talking about. Again, you want to talk about contract value, that's a whole different subject.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#124 » by Mobby » Wed Jan 9, 2013 4:04 pm

As a Bulls fan, I would love to acquire Gay for a 2nd round pick >_>
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#125 » by brick_wall_55 » Wed Jan 9, 2013 4:33 pm

Gay definitely has that "takeover" factor that Batum lacks; with Batum it's almost like he goes on streaks of possessions where he just anchors at the 3 point line and doesn't assert himself offensively. He was scoring a TON at the start of the year but now has refocused and become more of a point-forward. Batum is a better distributor by a mile, IMO a slightly better defender, and rebounding is comparable. What evens it out for me is Gay's scoring. I'm confident that Rudy will get back to what he was in previous years.

To be honest, they've both been in "shooting slumps" this year compared to previous seasons, both career 45% type guys shooting 41%. Legitimate cases can be made for both players being top 30 or better, especially since this is honestly the worst streak of Gay's career and I cannot imagine him ever sinking further toward rock bottom than where he is right now.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#126 » by Von Oswald » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:25 pm

sunskerr wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGJhj2IE8i4[/youtube]
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#127 » by Bskey » Wed Jan 9, 2013 5:28 pm

mid-post wrote:I'm not going to do the numbers game because they play two totally different roles...but Gay has a higher career PER.


You're not going to do the numbers game except throwing out a stat that favors Gay. Ok.

Batum's been a role player his whole damn career. He's good at it, but there's a reason he's a role player. And Rudy being/not being a star has nothing to do with that fact.


And? They've had different career paths. Batum continues to improve and right now is the better player. They are both full time starters now, not stars. Do you mean Batum is not more than that? And anyway Rudy is closer to a role player than Batum. Batum does more things on the court...so...yeah.

Yeah, and it's a lot harder to carry a team than it is being a role player on a team with established stars. Gay has clearly done that (although not that well) and I really doubt the same could be said for Batum. Why? Because Batum is obviously a role player, just watch him play. He's a poor man's Luol Deng. Not a knock on Deng either, just pointing out the fact that it's a lot easier to be "efficient" when teams aren't keying in on you.


You said it yourself, Gay does that but not that well. This is my point exactly. Gay is a nice player, but not great and not a star. Being able to create your shot alone is only one step in that regard. There are plenty of guys that have been able to create their own shots but were not good enough to ever be anything special. Once you realize this about him you will be able to look at him objectively and realize there is more of an argument for Batum>Gay than Gay>Batum.

He's not an efficient scorer any way you look at it. Not for a 3rd best player on his team (which is where he fits, much like Batum) or by number 1 option standards (something he should not be). What is Gay's excuse this year? He has a very good team around him yet his efficiency has gone down.

You know it's not a good thing at all to be a totally inefficient scorer as a number 1 option right? That's not a positive for Gay.

Gay is a better player than Batum, and people saying "lol, Batum is way better than Gay" don't know what they're talking about. Again, you want to talk about contract value, that's a whole different subject.


Labeling those that disagree with you as ignorant without anything to back it up is a tactic often used by someone that has no real argument. Just saying. Try proving we don't know what we're talking about instead of just saying it and throwing out terms like eye test which don't help your cause.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#128 » by mid-post » Wed Jan 9, 2013 6:34 pm

Bskey wrote:You said it yourself, Gay does that but not that well. This is my point exactly. Gay is a nice player, but not great and not a star. Being able to create your shot alone is only one step in that regard. There are plenty of guys that have been able to create their own shots but were not good enough to ever be anything special. Once you realize this about him you will be able to look at him objectively and realize there is more of an argument for Batum>Gay than Gay>Batum.

So your point is that...Gay isn't great or a star and I should realize that...therefore Batum is better than Gay? I mean you're basically operating on this assumption that I overrate Gay and therefore underrate Batum, therefore Batum>Gay. That is :lol: logic.

Batum isn't that good is the point. Rudy's career numbers are better and he's only
marginally older. He can do a lot more with the basketball, is a better rebounder and is a similar level defender.

He's not an efficient scorer any way you look at it. Not for a 3rd best player on his team (which is where he fits, much like Batum) or by number 1 option standards (something he should not be). What is Gay's excuse this year? He has a very good team around him yet his efficiency has gone down.

Gay's "excuse" is that he's in a shooting slump. It's clearly a statistical outlier and his role on this team is no different than it was when he had a career year in 10-11 before he went down with injury. The only difference now is that he's still being asked to space the floor because we have no shooters from the wings, but his shot is not falling. And even as the "third best player," he's on a better team than Batum's. So maybe that means by extension, he's better than Batum?

You know it's not a good thing at all to be a totally inefficient scorer as a number 1 option right? That's not a positive for Gay.

I never said he was an efficient scorer. But he's been a scorer (and role player as well, look at that) on several good teams. Batum has never been that. He was and is a career role player surrounded by All Stars who pumped up his efficiency numbers by getting him open looks. Rudy Gay has been and is a focal point in an offense that has been to the playoffs several times. Teams have been game planning him since his second year in the league. Before GaZBo became option 1a, Rudy was still the go-to guy on a playoff squad.

Labeling those that disagree with you as ignorant without anything to back it up is a tactic often used by someone that has no real argument. Just saying. Try proving we don't know what we're talking about instead of just saying it and throwing out terms like eye test which don't help your cause.

I have plenty to back it up, I even gave career PER wich you glibly dismissed. But I don't need the crutch of basketball-reference to compare them because it's obvious just looking at their careers and watching them out on court. You're either being intentionally thick because you want to have your moment of Gay schadenfreude/Batum love, or you're an idiot. Pick one.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#129 » by gaspar » Wed Jan 9, 2013 6:35 pm

PHX guy who broke the Nash to Lakers trade:

John Gambadoro ‏@Gambo620

Any trade for Rudy Gay would have Phoenix including Michael Beasley in the deal. Likely Beasley and either Dudley or Frye for Gay.
John Gambadoro ‏@Gambo620

Still don't think the trade happens, Memphis desperate to trade Gay & save on lux tax but also want picks &Suns unlikely to give up any 1sts
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#130 » by Effigy » Wed Jan 9, 2013 7:00 pm

Bskey wrote:Gay's "excuse" is that he's in a shooting slump. It's clearly a statistical outlier and his role on this team is no different than it was when he had a career year in 10-11 before he went down with injury. The only difference now is that he's still being asked to space the floor because we have no shooters from the wings, but his shot is not falling. And even as the "third best player," he's on a better team than Batum's. So maybe that means by extension, he's better than Batum?


It's not clearly a statistical outlier, he could just be declining. You certainly don't know that for sure.

I never said he was an efficient scorer. But he's been a scorer (and role player as well, look at that) on several good teams. Batum has never been that. He was and is a career role player surrounded by All Stars who pumped up his efficiency numbers by getting him open looks. Rudy Gay has been and is a focal point in an offense that has been to the playoffs several times. Teams have been game planning him since his second year in the league. Before GaZBo became option 1a, Rudy was still the go-to guy on a playoff squad.


Really? Batum is surrounded by all-stars? Who are all these allstars he's surrounded by in Portland this year? Lamarcus Aldridge? And? Gay is the one who has 2 all-star teammates, not Batum. If your assertion is that playing with all-stars makes your efficiency higher, then I feel really bad for a team like Toronto if they get Rudy.

I have plenty to back it up, I even gave career PER.


Hey great, but you know, some players decline, some improve. Could you give me something more relevant? How about the PERs of each player for THIS season? What do those numbers look like?
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#131 » by mid-post » Wed Jan 9, 2013 9:24 pm

Effigy wrote:It's not clearly a statistical outlier, he could just be declining. You certainly don't know that for sure.

:roll: How is it not clearly a statistical outlier? Do you know what that means? I guess it has to be spelled out for you: He's just missing jumpshots. Shots he's made his whole career. He's in a shooting slump. That's all. Why would he be declining? Physically there's nothing wrong with him and he's playing the same way he always has, he's just not hitting his shot this season.

Really? Batum is surrounded by all-stars? Who are all these allstars he's surrounded by in Portland this year? Lamarcus Aldridge? And? Gay is the one who has 2 all-star teammates, not Batum. If your assertion is that playing with all-stars makes your efficiency higher, then I feel really bad for a team like Toronto if they get Rudy.

Yeah, check the usage of tense, in his best shooting season he played next to Aldridge and Roy, which took a huge amount of offensive pressure off of him and allowed him to play his role perfectly. He's playing the role of 3 point shooter perfectly this year as well, 7 3PA per game at a shootinger percentage that is obviously not sustainable.

I can't believe you people are serious with this Batum>Gay stuff. Good for Nic for having an above average season for himself, but it's only been 30 something games. His career numbers are worse than Gay's, and even Batum's best season so far (last year) he wasn't as good as Gay. And he was on a worse team. So stop prematurely cumming in your drawers just because Gay is in a big time slump and Batum is playing better than he usually does.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#132 » by Bskey » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:04 am

mid-post wrote:I can't believe you people are serious with this Batum>Gay stuff. Good for Nic for having an above average season for himself, but it's only been 30 something games.


You don't even say why Gay is better, all you do is reference past seasons (Batum hasn't played with Roy for a long time) and talk about team comparisons.

Yeah, check the usage of tense, in his best shooting season he played next to Aldridge and Roy, which took a huge amount of offensive pressure off of him and allowed him to play his role perfectly. He's playing the role of 3 point shooter perfectly this year as well, 7 3PA per game at a shootinger percentage that is obviously not sustainable.


He's having his worst 3pt shooting year of his career percentage wise. By your logic he's simply in a slump. So when you say not sustainable you mean he's going to get better? Cool.

Yeah, he had his best shooting days with Roy, and it absolutely demolishes any of Rudy's seasons efficiency wise so thanks for bringing that up? I don't know why you're even talking about seasons from years ago, they really don't matter when comparing players now. It seems to be just to give the "Batum had a better team that's why he was more efficient" excuse. By the way, Batum is having a more efficient scoring season right now than Gay has EVER had.

And don't come back with that he's not the go to guy like Gay is garbage, they are both the third best players on their team and Batum is a big reason why the Blazers are where they are. He takes big shots in the 4th just like Gay will. He isn't ignored by other teams. Memphis is a much better team when you begin factoring in entire rotations. With such a good team isn't Gay supposed to be all super efficient and stuff? It's just that easy, according to you.

Or does that logic only apply to Batum because you thought it would be convenient to do so?

You seem to be understanding that Rudy is also a role player if Batum is one, yet you can't see what is pretty clear in that right now Batum is the superior player. Even if you did consider Rudy better why do you act like it would be some huge gap and "lol" worthy to even discuss? That just makes you look bad if you couldn't even admit that Batum is worthy of the notion.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#133 » by crosko42 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:12 am

Von Oswald wrote:
sunskerr wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGJhj2IE8i4[/youtube]


This is so perfect.

Cannot stop laughing.
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Re: Woj: Phoenix in talks to acquire Rudy Gay 

Post#134 » by mid-post » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:35 am

yet you can't see what is pretty clear in that right now Batum is the superior player.

If you're trying to say he's having a better season than Gay, just say that instead.

Instead you've been incorrectly saying that Batum is just straight up the better player. Sorry, that is laughable. Putting up high TS% or PER (on low volume btw) doesn't really mean anything when you've been a third, fourth, fifth option for the majority of your career, which up to this point is exactly what Batum has been. Let him be a legit number two or three option (on a successful team) for more than one season (when he's forced to put the offense on his back frequently), then we can talk.

And what seems to be lost in all this talk about efficiency is that it's a lot easier to be efficient in the role that's asked of Batum (basically to shoot threes and pass to other jumpshooters) than it is to be the guy who's consistently given the ball to play one on one from the perimeter, bail a team out when the typical gameplan (throw it down low) isn't working, or to throw him the ball when there's a broken play.

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