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OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#161 » by Totem » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:43 am

daleface wrote:
Scott Carefoot wrote:
daleface wrote:Some of them like BC, knew that Drummond has huge potential but didn't look into much because he was drafting base on need and what other evaluators have said.


You have nothing to back up this statement. I know people connected with the organization and the Raptors knew plenty about Drummond, and they didn't like what they saw. They made the wrong decision, but it wasn't based on "not looking into him much".


So BC admitting Drummond was top 3 talent in the draft and yet didn't pick him is nothing to back my statement?

Could you ask the people you know who are connected with the organization on why they pass on Drummond when their own GM stated that he was top 3?

Cause I can't see how a GM can say that a player is top 3 and then didn't draft him because "they didn't like what they saw". If that's the case, they ought to be fired.


This - and all the nonsense about us not needing talent but more focus and attention to detail, while reminding everyone that we're still in a 2 and a 1/2 year rebuild that consists of trading future draft picks for a short term point guard and extending a player over his market value in hopes that he would play up to his value even though you seemed to have drafted a contingency plan if someone were to offer said player a contract you wouldn't have matched - makes it seem like BC is a walking contradiction, I don't know why people call bargs an enigma, he's the real enigma.

All it seems like to me is a man who is desperately trying to save his job.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#162 » by Phenomenologist » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:59 am

There were a (nearly) consensus EIGHT elite prospects. Drummond was the last one available when we were selecting. Dumars was shocked that he was still available. Ross was projected to go mid first round. If BC's tendency for counter-conventional personnel moves had an established history of success, then he would have leeway to slip up now and again. But it doesn't; in fact, it has a history of abject failure. Drummond was the CLEAR pick. And if Barnes had dropped (i.e. if GS took Drummond), then Barnes would have been the CLEAR pick (even though the early results seem to imply that Ross and Barnes are at worst a push). It's not **** rocket science. Some of you morons are conflating increased access to information with superior parsing of said (additional) information. It's pretty **** clear that those two concepts are distinct.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#163 » by hillbilly hare » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:01 am

Scott Carefoot wrote:
daleface wrote:^ That's what I'm saying.

Some of these GM's didn't due diligence by checking on Drummond. Rather, they based their decision on..or already had formed their opinion on him without really checking.

And that just shows that these GM's haven't been doing a good job.


You are 100 percent wrong in your assessment that the GMs who passed on Drummond didn't have enough information. I promise you that every GM who passed on Drummond had much, much more information on him than you or any of the people in this thread who don't understand why those teams passed on him.

Did any of you talk to his high school and college coaches? Did any of you interview him personally? Most of us like to think we wouldn't make the mistakes these GMs made on Drummond, but you don't have the information they had that influenced that decision.

Let's look at the 2010 draft. If the players were drafted in order based strictly on their natural gifts, talent and potential, DeMarcus Cousins would have been the first overall pick, easily. He might still prove to have the best career out of anyone in that draft, but it's become quite obvious why four teams passed on him.

What about Royce White? You think there weren't fans of some of the teams who didn't draft him that thought their GMs were fools for passing on him? Again, they didn't have all the information.

The Internet has deluded a lot of sports fans into thinking they know just as much, if not more, about the players then the GMs who draft them, sign them or trade for them. The problem with all that extra information that GMs have access to is that it can cause them to overthink things. I suppose that's why David Kahn thought it made sense to draft Wesley Johnson (who was a couple of weeks from turning 23) instead of DeMarcus Cousins.

The people in this thread who believe in their hearts that Drummond was an obvious impact player did not have the information that the seven GMs who passed on him did. I'm sure every one if you is 100 percent positive that you would have ignored all that negative intel and drafted him anyway. You're entitled to believe that, but since none of you will ever be GMs, we'll never know.

The draft is an inexact science. Stop treating it otherwise.

Edited to add: Using Bynum as an example of a player GMs screwed up on isn't looking so hot right now. Again, we don't know the information the GMs that passed had on him. It turns out he's an self-centred a-hole, and it's possible that came out in interviews. If one of us had interviewed him, we might have decided he wasn't worth the risk.


It wasn't a question of Drummond being self-centered or not. It was about his supposed apathy and laziness and lack of basketballs smarts and dedication to the game and will to improve and blah blah blah. That is something you might be able to get a better handle on if you talk to the guy. As to his college coach, I read that he called Drummond a great kid who learned quickly. I wouldn't suggest interviewing his 3rd grade teacher.

As to Bynum, the point is that the Lakers clearly had a pretty good pre-draft workout system. Bynum was super raw, but the Lakers (West) put him thru his paces and by all accounts they were blown away and decided right then to draft him. The same thing happened with a 17 year old Kobe. Now, people will say that Kobe made it clear he wanted to play only for the Lakers, but that's beside the point. He blew the Lakers away in his workout and they decided right then to draft him. If they hadn't been blown away, I assume they wouldn't have drafted him, whether he wanted to play for the Lakers or not. The Lakers did their homework and came away with two superstars, one of whom is a hall of gamer. One has been injured a lot, but that's hardly possible to foresee. The point is that you find these guys before other teams do. Not easy, of course, but that's why GMs get paid the big bucks.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#164 » by brownbobcat » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:34 pm

Ripp wrote:18 year old 6'11 freak athlete with a grown man's body who was also an elite defender in college.

The only major red flag publicized regarding him was his poor free throw shooting.

Kind of amazing that so many GMs choked on what should have been an easy decision.

Really, his absolute worst-case scenario was DeAndre Jordan.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#165 » by ATLTimekeeper » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:57 pm

Greg Stink wrote:
If you actually watched UCONN, you could see that the team was an utter mess with an absentee coach and idiotic Kemba-wannabe PG in Napier, who abandoned his chip game for a lousy Kemba impression, and what Drummond could take to the next level. Advanced stats did exist which supported him. Nobody could score on him in the post.


They were no more dysfunctional than Detroit is now. Drummond just wasn't all that special last year. Your selfish point guards aren't stopping you from playing hard. Drummond deserves credit for bringing more intensity this year than he showed at UConn. He improved, and maybe that's where he deceived all those other GMs. When you bring up "advanced stats", you're only really pointing to one. He was pedestrian pretty much everywhere else for a top pick.

Anyway, spilt milk. There's more to the story, I think, otherwise the greatest teen ever wouldn't have slipped so far. NBA GMs LOVE taking risks on big men at the top of the lottery, and they weren't going to change that suddenly.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#166 » by YogiStewart » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:06 pm

tracey_nice wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".


what specifically?


didn't get details, but it was made quite clear that there (apparently) were a lot of red flags about him. lots. as is, he was a definite DO NOT WANT player.

i mean, people change and mature and stuff, but some clubs don't want to touch the Spreewells and Arenases and Nate Robinsons of the world. not worth the club's time and energy and not worth screwing up lockerroom chemistry
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#167 » by YogiStewart » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:10 pm

daleface wrote:^ That's what I'm saying.

Some of these GM's didn't due diligence by checking on Drummond. Rather, they based their decision on..or already had formed their opinion on him without really checking.

And that just shows that these GM's haven't been doing a good job.


and i posted that GMs had done more due diligence than you could possibly imagine and there was no way in hell they wanted anything to do with Drummond.

there's lots of stuff out there that plebes like you and I don't get to see or hear about. don't assume that NBA GMs are morons. they may not make moves to your liking, but they didn't BS and fool their way to their position by pulling the wool over dozens, if not hundreds, of college and NBA management staff.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#168 » by ruckus » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:25 pm

I don't hear this mentioned a lot but, draft position really influences the career progression of a player. Being drafted so low may have been the best thing for Drummond as it may have given him the impetus to actually work on his game and play with some intensity. Who knows if he would have turned out the same way at a higher pick.

It's not an excuse though for BC or for any GM to miss out on talent.

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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#169 » by thunderforce » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:30 pm

I know he is not a teen but Acy's per of 21.3 aint so bad either and he can shoot free throws too .
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#170 » by brownbobcat » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:33 pm

YogiStewart wrote:didn't get details, but it was made quite clear that there (apparently) were a lot of red flags about him. lots. as is, he was a definite DO NOT WANT player.

i mean, people change and mature and stuff, but some clubs don't want to touch the Spreewells and Arenases and Nate Robinsons of the world. not worth the club's time and energy and not worth screwing up lockerroom chemistry

This is not a team in a position to reject players of a Sprewell/Arenas calibre for the sake of chemistry. The chemistry of scrubs should never be a concern to anyone, anywhere, ever.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#171 » by orangutooth » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:03 pm

per is an amazing stat that definitely translates into wins.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#172 » by lucky777s » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:11 pm

YogiStewart wrote:and i posted that GMs had done more due diligence than you could possibly imagine and there was no way in hell they wanted anything to do with Drummond.

there's lots of stuff out there that plebes like you and I don't get to see or hear about. don't assume that NBA GMs are morons. they may not make moves to your liking, but they didn't BS and fool their way to their position



Joe Dumars is a GM. He did his due diligence and realized what a steal Drummond was at 8. So much so that JoeD tried to move up to 8 to get him. He KNEW Raps were not taking Drum but he was very worried about other teams moving up to 8 to get him. Word was that Henson was the guy DET was looking at leading up to the draft. When Drum dropped they jumped at the chance. JoeD owned BC on this one. Did not even have to give up a single asset even though he offered to. Ridiculous.

As for GMs getting their jobs by virtue of accomplishments? That is pure BS. Ex-players get some of those jobs with nothing but their playing ability and personality. Family members get some of those jobs. Guys who start out as interns and network their way within the organization get those jobs. Its a pretty tight circle in the nba and its more who you know than what you know. This is why so many guys just get recycled around the league.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#173 » by Big Shot » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:13 pm

I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can conceal all these things.

Having said that, in Toronto's case, I believe JV was the biggest reason why Drum was not even considered as a possible candidate for the pick. If true, I disagree with their decision.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#174 » by peja drobnjak » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:15 pm

due diligence: bc edition

*drafts centre in 2011, is thrilled*

"well i guess we have a centre already" *drafts shooting guard in 2012*

all i ever heard about drummond was that he wasn't intense and played a bit soft, otherwise he was a nice kid. you can't just keep pulling the 'gm's know better' card when you see regular fans day in and day out make better decisions than gm's on less information
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#175 » by Saciid11 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:31 pm

Big Shot wrote:I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can seal all these things.


Who cares about other team, this is about Raptors ignoring scouts, fans, etc to pass up yet again a steal that was available to them at 8. This is exactly what he did when he drafted Bargnani, first he used the excuses of not being able to trade down, then he justified by labeling Aldridge a power forward who couldn t play the center position.. while Bargnani was justified as being able to play both positions ... This is exactly what he did here, he passed up Drummond because of his ego, he didnt want his project Bargnani being out performed by rookies and he want JVAL to be out performed too... BC is all about the ego, he has done nothing to improve this team in 7 years. Drummond could have been this teams chance to finally get franchise center, something we never had in 18 years this team existed.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#176 » by Saciid11 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:35 pm

This year if we get the #1 or #2 and Shabbazz is available, BC will pass up on him and take instead Cody Zeller... the reason Cody had the character we were looking for and he fits the type of players we like... Shabbazz is just not the player we looking for, besides we have Derozen( decent starter, but he is not difference maker) and Ross( overrated by Raps fans).....
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#177 » by wolfv » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:36 pm

Raps' due dilligence was way off then. He is obviously very high on Jonas, and he was very high on Bargnani as we all know, even saying 13 games is a large sample size. This was the front court he wanted
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#178 » by Big Shot » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:54 pm

Saciid11 wrote:
Big Shot wrote:I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can seal all these things.


Who cares about other team, this is about Raptors ignoring scouts, fans, etc to pass up yet again a steal that was available to them at 8. This is exactly what he did when he drafted Bargnani, first he used the excuses of not being able to trade down, then he justified by labeling Aldridge a power forward who couldn t play the center position.. while Bargnani was justified as being able to play both positions ... This is exactly what he did here, he passed up Drummond because of his ego, he didnt want his project Bargnani being out performed by rookies and he want JVAL to be out performed too... BC is all about the ego, he has done nothing to improve this team in 7 years. Drummond could have been this teams chance to finally get franchise center, something we never had in 18 years this team existed.


Hey, I didn't say we should care about what the other teams did, did I? My post was simply to address the other poster's comments regarding Gm's due diligence. If you knew me well, I always thought BC dropped the ball again without picking Drum. I even said before the draft if Drum was available at 8, no way we should pass on him simply based on the talent.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#179 » by hillbilly hare » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:02 pm

lucky777s wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:and i posted that GMs had done more due diligence than you could possibly imagine and there was no way in hell they wanted anything to do with Drummond.

there's lots of stuff out there that plebes like you and I don't get to see or hear about. don't assume that NBA GMs are morons. they may not make moves to your liking, but they didn't BS and fool their way to their position



Joe Dumars is a GM. He did his due diligence and realized what a steal Drummond was at 8. So much so that JoeD tried to move up to 8 to get him. He KNEW Raps were not taking Drum but he was very worried about other teams moving up to 8 to get him. Word was that Henson was the guy DET was looking at leading up to the draft. When Drum dropped they jumped at the chance. JoeD owned BC on this one. Did not even have to give up a single asset even though he offered to. Ridiculous.

As for GMs getting their jobs by virtue of accomplishments? That is pure BS. Ex-players get some of those jobs with nothing but their playing ability and personality. Family members get some of those jobs. Guys who start out as interns and network their way within the organization get those jobs. Its a pretty tight circle in the nba and its more who you know than what you know. This is why so many guys just get recycled around the league.


Exactly. As we've said before.

There are some weak arguments out there regarding Drummond. That "7 other teams passed on him" so there must be reason. That he was a "headcase". That teams "did their due diligence" and found him wanting. And so on. If those assessments are correct, then the only answer is: a lot of people were wrong.

This isn't about getting a guy's talent wrong. It's about worrying about rumors of a guy's character. And in many cases, not checking out those rumors yourself to see if they were true. I don't know exactly where "all" the reports are or where they came from regarding Drummond as a headcase, but I do remember his college coach calling him a great kid who picked things up quickly. So apart from his college coach, who else did GMs interview to conclude that Drummond was a headcase?

More to the point. Joe Dumars interviewed Drummond and worked him out privately, and decided that Drummond was his guy. And he was right. Our GM didn't and wasn't. Dumars did and was. That's really all there is to it.
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Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA 

Post#180 » by Spacing » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:03 pm

Neutral 123 wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:The armchair psychologists are the ones who wrote him off as some sort of headcase with obviously no reason for it. This was such a no brainer, and it was obvious that he would be an impact player. The only real question was how long it would take. If the Raps had anything, it was time.


from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".

What exactly? All I've heard is that he struggled with certain drills, and wasn't quick to pick up on stuff generally during workouts. Didn't BC just brag about passing on a top 3 talent because he didn't think the guy had the right personality, all the while not even working him out? I mean how does a guy still so high on Bargnani, question the mindset of anyone else in the league? But this is far more than Drummond. We can debate on what the Raps shoulda, coulda done, but objectively, the results stink. They have been well below average. There is little reason to think things will be substantially better in the immediate future. Why does this guy (BC) still deserve support? He should have been fired long ago. He's been an objective failure.


It is indeed true that BC was worrisome of his mental make-up.

What worried me the most at the time of the draft was that we were passing on a trade chip to help us move down and secure a player while still taking Ross who was projected in the late teens early twenties IIRC.

It is evidenced that there will always be a team willing to be a trade partner if they feel that said player can have an impact in the NBA. Every scout new Drummond, although raw, did have that ability to impact the game.

He just wasn't "NBA Ready" in comparison to Ross who was deemed "NBA Ready" yet can do nothing outside of Shoot the ball.

According to Bryan though, the ability to shoot a 3 ball far surpasses anything else a player can do on the court.

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