OT - Morey or Colangelo???

[billy_hoyle]

So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....

They were actually 2 games over .500 last year and 4 right now.

Anyways, to strip a team completely, jump on a trade for an MVP level player and have 20 million in cap-space with an attractive roster of young talent, yeah, pretty genius.

Ya my bad, your numbers are right. Four games over .500 two years back as well. My point stands tho, essentially the same record for four years.

[Raps in 4]

So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....

The point is that he acquired an MVP-level franchise player. That should be the goal of every team. This is a star-driven league, and getting that superstar is by far the hardest part of building a contender.

Well consider me in the group that doesn't consider Harden to be a franchise MVP caliber player. He hasn't turned the needle on the Rockets winning % this year. Essentially, I take your point and turn it back at you, MVP's heavily influence the W/L column.

Now they do have cap space to add another All-Star in Josh Smith, but I don't give credit for "flexibility", just as likely they get an Amare or Boozer - nice but treadmill inducing. A term you seem to love.

Harden is unquestionably a top-10 talent in the NBA. That is an MVP-calibre player.

[Rapcity_11]

Ya my bad, your numbers are right. Four games over .500 two years back as well. My point stands tho, essentially the same record for four years.

Well consider me in the group that doesn't consider Harden to be a franchise MVP caliber player. He hasn't turned the needle on the Rockets winning % this year. Essentially, I take your point and turn it back at you, MVP's heavily influence the W/L column.

I added in part of your other post.

First, essentially same record but a way better SRS, 3.6 compared to 0.6. (SRS is a better indicator of team success)

Same WINNING record, for 4 years while re-tooling on the fly, into one of the most enviable situations in the league IS impressive as hell.

Even if you want to use wins to judge Harden, do you realize that 7 of the 9 guys to play significant minutes for the 11-12 Rockets are gone this year. PP and CP being the only remaining guys. It's asinine to compare to records as a reflection on Harden. Going into the season, nobody was projected the Rockets at a 44 win pace.

Let's say the Rox didn't make the Harden deal. How many wins would you have projected?

[sanity]

Harden might not be in the realm of a James/Bryant/Howard/Durant/Wade/Paul-type franchise caliber player, but he's practically as close as anyone else you could mention after those guys

[billy_hoyle]

Morey took over a team with 2 broken down max players... remained competitive (making the playoffs) despite the worst case scenarios of both of them completely breaking down and somehow managed to form the team he has now all the while being above .500 team the ENTIRE TIME. There was no period of sucking or tanking for them. That is what you call good, competent management.

People suggest WE tank because Bryan isn't savvy enough to pull off moves that puts this team in a better position to win. It is like training wheels for a GM to score out on a high draft pick because he's incapable of acquiring high-end talent otherwise.

Those Rockets teams with two max players were championship calibre clubs, but with injuries - the supporting team was STILL .500. That tells me they had good players on top of TMac and Yao.

People here over value young players, they enjoy the uncertainty of potential and the appearance of building towards something that's not defined. In all likely hood the Rockets aren't going to be championship contenders anytime soon, IMO as presently constructed the Raps have the higher ceiling with JVAL having the most breakthrough potential for both teams.

[billy_hoyle]

Double post

[billy_hoyle]

Ya my bad, your numbers are right. Four games over .500 two years back as well. My point stands tho, essentially the same record for four years.

Well consider me in the group that doesn't consider Harden to be a franchise MVP caliber player. He hasn't turned the needle on the Rockets winning % this year. Essentially, I take your point and turn it back at you, MVP's heavily influence the W/L column.

I added in part of your other post.

First, essentially same record but a way better SRS, 3.6 compared to 0.6. (SRS is a better indicator of team success)

Same WINNING record, for 4 years while re-tooling on the fly, into one of the most enviable situations in the league IS impressive as hell.

Even if you want to use wins to judge Harden, do you realize that 7 of the 9 guys to play significant minutes for the 11-12 Rockets are gone this year. PP and CP being the only remaining guys. It's asinine to compare to records as a reflection on Harden. Going into the season, nobody was projected the Rockets at a 44 win pace.

Let's say the Rox didn't make the Harden deal. How many wins would you have projected?

Same TREADMILL record that everyone's afraid of for four years. I DO realize that they traded away 7 of the 9 guys that were on the team last year...MY point is that they were just AS GOOD. Hence why I'm not impressed! And if he didn't trade for a MAX player ( that puts them on the treadmill by the way, and for 2 lottery picks and a borderline allstar) they would have REBUILT properly none of this on the fly accelerated .500 team bull

JEEZE my judgments a reflection on Morey and the Rockets team as it pertains to winning basketball games, not Harden. Who I really love as a player, but wouldn't say is franchise or MVP calibre.

[Phenomenologist]

People suggest WE tank because Bryan isn't savvy enough to pull off moves that puts this team in a better position to win. It is like training wheels for a GM to score out on a high draft pick because he's incapable of acquiring high-end talent otherwise.

Ha, great analogy. BC can't even ride a bike with **** training wheels. We're talking about practice ...

[billy_hoyle]

Harden is unquestionably a top-10 talent in the NBA. That is an MVP-calibre player.


I question this statement, but you're entitled to your opinion of course.

Harden might not be in the realm of a James/Bryant/Howard/Durant/Wade/Paul-type franchise caliber player, but he's practically as close as anyone else you could mention after those guys

Great build around a Bosh level talent - impressive. Wonder how that will work out?

[sanity]

Harden is unquestionably a top-10 talent in the NBA. That is an MVP-calibre player.


I question this statement, but you're entitled to your opinion of course.

Harden might not be in the realm of a James/Bryant/Howard/Durant/Wade/Paul-type franchise caliber player, but he's practically as close as anyone else you could mention after those guys

Great build around a Bosh level talent - impressive. Wonder how that will work out?

Probably better than what we're doing with a lower tier Rudy Gay level talent. Also, how often do those top-end franchise caliber players hit the market?

[Rapcity_11]

Same TREADMILL record that everyone's afraid of for four years. I DO realize that they traded away 7 of the 9 guys that were on the team last year...MY point is that they were just AS GOOD. Hence why I'm not impressed! And if he didn't trade for a MAX player ( that puts them on the treadmill by the way, and for 2 lottery picks and a borderline allstar) they would have REBUILT properly none of this on the fly accelerated .500 team bull

JEEZE

There's no such thing as a treadmill record, only a treadmill team. Until you understand that, I'm probably wasting my time. The Rockets have been the former, not the latter.

Do you not see how stupid it is that you're judging Harden based on last year's completely different team.

You also seem to be failing to grasp that this isn't the end for this Rockets squad. There's a direction there, which puts them in one of the best spots in the league.

Are you really sitting here suggesting the Rockets should have tanked this year? LMAO.

[billy_hoyle]

Harden is unquestionably a top-10 talent in the NBA. That is an MVP-calibre player.


I question this statement, but you're entitled to your opinion of course.

Harden might not be in the realm of a James/Bryant/Howard/Durant/Wade/Paul-type franchise caliber player, but he's practically as close as anyone else you could mention after those guys

Great build around a Bosh level talent - impressive. Wonder how that will work out?

Probably better than what we're doing with a lower tier Rudy Gay level talent. Also, how often do those top-end franchise caliber players hit the market?

See I think we have JVal as our trump card, but that's just me. If you think we are going to be relying on Rudy like the Rockets are going to need to rely on Harden...well then I don't know what to say to you.

[sanity]

See I think we have JVal as our trump card, but that's just me. If you think we are going to be relying on Rudy like the Rockets are going to need to rely on Harden...well then I don't know what to say to you.

What time frame are we talking here? The 2 years we have to be competitive before both Lowry and Gay can simply leave this team or the potential 5 year plan where Jonas hits his respective ceiling as a player?

If you're trying to compare Valanciunas to James Harden... I could say the same back to you.

[lander]

So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....

The point is that he acquired an MVP-level franchise player. That should be the goal of every team. This is a star-driven league, and getting that superstar is by far the hardest part of building a contender.

MVP level really? Harden is as good as Durant? Lebron? Rose? Kobe?

Really. Wow.

[Scraptor]

How is this even a debate?

Rockets have a playoff record in the west with the youngest team in the league, a pile of capspace to add more talent, and Morey has never had a losing season.

Raptors are almost the complete opposite: capped out with a bunch of bad contracts, barely any wiggle room to make deals, and no draft pick this year, not to mention we've done this after having how many crappy losing seasons. I mean, we tanked an entire year to draft Terrence Ross. Our starting point guard is going to want a significant raise. And we are paying $21mm to three guys whose roughly 1800 minutes when stretched out over our 55 games works out to about 11 minutes per game from each.

We had a giant opportunity to right this franchise last offseason, and we f**ked the dog, not once, but repeatedly. Lowry and Gay were solid acquisitions, but... what next? Everything really depends on how good Val can get, and how fast.

[Scraptor]

So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....

The point is that he acquired an MVP-level franchise player. That should be the goal of every team. This is a star-driven league, and getting that superstar is by far the hardest part of building a contender.

MVP level really? Harden is as good as Durant? Lebron? Rose? Kobe?

Really. Wow.

Win shares:
1. Durant
2. LBJ
3. Harden
4. Paul
5. Tony Parker

Harden is definitely having an MVP caliber season.

[Marvin Martian]

This topic should not even exist. But nonetheless, the only good move that BC has made so far is lowry and gay. The rest are extremely poor. I think Fields, Bargs and DD are overpaid for their production and skillset.

[Phenomenologist]

So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....

The point is that he acquired an MVP-level franchise player. That should be the goal of every team. This is a star-driven league, and getting that superstar is by far the hardest part of building a contender.

MVP level really? Harden is as good as Durant? Lebron? Rose? Kobe?

Really. Wow.

LBJ? No.
Durant? No.
Rose? Definitely.
Last few season Kobe? Quite possibly.

Harden is a top-10 player already and he's 23.

[Phenomenologist]

Everything really depends on how good Val can get, and how fast.

Yep...and yet Aaron Gray plays > 0 minutes in his stead during yet another lottery season. smh. fml.

[G R E Y]

Seriously, who voted for BC?

Morey by a country mile. I love how people thought he was crazy stockpiling young players, picks or players in same position only to turn it around and strike gold. Lin was a risk but he took it and the young players/picks were traded to make the team better. Way better, far sooner. Now that's an accelerated rebuild.