Why the Jazz keeps their scrubs as starters?

[justinian]

Tinsley, Foye and Marvin Williams combined for 0 (yes, zero) points against the Clippers.

I don't mind using the word 'scrub' here.

Meanwhile, Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter were the only guys who could guard Blake, but instead Blake went off on Millsap and Jefferson.

Day in the life...

This

[SF_Warriors]

Wonder what the Jazz's plan is.. Looks like they gonna lose jeff and sap in FA this yr.

On paper, kanter and favors both seem to compliment each other. A big, tough C and a super athletic PF. Both guys rebound and are at least decent offensive players at their positions at a young age . They tank a couple seasons and draft wings or a PG and see what happens?

[lukekarts]

They're trying to make the playoffs, and Corbin is going with the lineup he thinks will achieve that.

It's alright saying 'play the young guys' but this is a small franchise we're talking about, and the extra playoff revenue is important to them. Plus, having the young guys playing in the playoffs will be great experience for them, regardless of whether they're starting or coming off the bench...

[carayip]

They're trying to make the playoffs, and Corbin is going with the lineup he thinks will achieve that.

It's alright saying 'play the young guys' but this is a small franchise we're talking about, and the extra playoff revenue is important to them. Plus, having the young guys playing in the playoffs will be great experience for them, regardless of whether they're starting or coming off the bench...

The problem is that I don't think their old guys are neccessarily better than the young guys, especially at guard position. A starting PG who is often left unguarded but still scores zero point is not the way to go if your goal is winning and getting into the playoffs.

[cjs55]

The problem with Al Jeff is you have to deal with this:



Dude has to be a 6th man or covered by great defenders because he's just so godawful at defense. Maybe Thibedaeu could make something of him. But the Jazz combine him with a bad defender at PG and a terrible defender at SG. Good luck with that.

[deliriousmouse]

Jefferson needed all the game-time he can to pull out my Fantasy team out of the toilet after i picked up Deron Williams and Kevin Love.

The Jazz we're always a middle of the road team, People demanding Jefferson to be traded, He's still a very good player, the best thing Kanter can do is learn from him, Im not impressed with Favours

[lukekarts]

They're trying to make the playoffs, and Corbin is going with the lineup he thinks will achieve that.

It's alright saying 'play the young guys' but this is a small franchise we're talking about, and the extra playoff revenue is important to them. Plus, having the young guys playing in the playoffs will be great experience for them, regardless of whether they're starting or coming off the bench...

The problem is that I don't think their old guys are neccessarily better than the young guys, especially at guard position. A starting PG who is often left unguarded but still scores zero point is not the way to go if your goal is winning and getting into the playoffs.

I understand that, but Mo Williams would be starting if healthy, and it's important to have a point guard on the court even if it's just half the game (noting that Mo and Tinsley are basically the only point guards they have). Hayward has played well off the bench in a decent number of minutes so that's not really an issue. Burks has proven nothing. The best bench players they have, save for Hayward, are their front court guys, but its sensible to play Millsap / Jefferson to make the playoffs.

[moocow007]

Watching the game the other night when they got plowed by Clippers, made me begged the question - Why in the world would coach Ty Corbin have these guys as the starters?


starters:
PG: Jamaal Tinsley
SG: Randy Foyle
C: Al Jefferson
PF: Paul Millsap
SF: Marvin Willaims

bench
PG: Alec Burks
SG: Gordon Hayward
C: Enes Kanter
PF: Derrick Favor
SF: DeMarre Carroll

WTF!? Why not play your young studs who can only get better by playing more, tell me position-by-position that these guys shouldn't be getting more minutes. This is like some kind of bizarro world, the coach and FO would rather start a bunch of guys who would otherwise be bench players in other teams than starting their dynamic, young, hustling core who are thirst for minutes.

Well the Jazz are kinda in a playoff race after all.

Also...

1. Alec Burks is a PG since when? Are you implying that they should just try him there? If so...see playoff race.
2. Marvin Williams is still better than DeMarre Carroll regardless of how hard Carroll works (and TBQH, Carroll had a real annyoing habit of leaving Paul Pierce to double someone else over and over again last night against Boston).
3. Al Jefferson should be starting over Enes Kanter (see playoff race)
4. Derrick Favors hasn't earned the right to start over Paul Milsap yet (see playoff race)

The only argument that really can be made is that Hayward should probably start over Foye.

Sounds like you're saying that the Jazz should just give up on the playoffs and focus on developing their young guys?

[moocow007]

Al Jeff has been getting ripped on lately and i dont get it. Also the Jazz are doing just fine, they are ahead of multiple teams that imo have more talent than them. This is coming from a Blazer fan as well and im pretty sure we are supposed to dislike the Jazz? For them to be where they are with the guard rotation they have is actually quite remarkable imo

It's because if he can't defend then he must be absolute crap. Forget about his offense or rebounding or shotblocking...or being the only viable no.1 option on the team. That's fans for you. If he ain't perfect then he's a scrub.

[hoops4life]

Unfortunately the Jazz can't afford to tank for several season to try and rebuild. There is no guarantee that will work either. There are teams that have been doing that for 10+ years and are still terrible.

[cjs55]

Well the Jazz are kinda in a playoff race after all.

Also...

1. Alec Burks is a PG since when? Are you implying that they should just try him there? If so...see playoff race.
2. Marvin Williams is still better than DeMarre Carroll regardless of how hard Carroll works (and TBQH, Carroll had a real annyoing habit of leaving Paul Pierce to double someone else over and over again last night against Boston).
3. Al Jefferson should be starting over Enes Kanter (see playoff race)
4. Derrick Favors hasn't earned the right to start over Paul Milsap yet (see playoff race)

Alec Burks has been playing PG for the past few weeks, and he's been...ok. He has excellent speed and handles. Not a great playmaker though. I'd take him over Tinsley or Watson at PG simply because he is a threat on offense (and Watson and Tinsley are pretty bad). He had a rough start to the season (very, very rough), but has been playing well lately and is actually getting minutes now which is nice to see. Last night, for example, Burks played primarily as PG and got 32 minutes. He didn't have a great game, but considering that he basically didn't play for the first half of the season I'd give him some time.

DeMarre has a PER of 16.5 this season. Marvin Williams has a PER of 10.6. DMC has a net rating of +6.9. Marvin with -2.8. Carroll also has drastically improved his shot and has a better TS% than Williams. He is a better defender and intangibles player than Williams.

Carroll is clearly, CLEARLY, a better basketball player than Williams at this point. As someone who's watched all of the Jazz's games this season, it isn't even close. To say otherwise just shows you haven't been watching them this season.

Al Jefferson certainly should be starting over Kanter who is still quite raw. But Favors should be starting in place of Al-Jeff. The Jazz are a better team with Millsap-Favors on the floor than with Millsap-Jefferson on the floor. I don't think Favors is necessarily a better player right now than Al, but I think Millsap-Favors is a better frontcourt than Millsap-Jefferson simply due to fit and how the complement each other. Favors is a strong and long defender down low, something Millsap and Jefferson both don't have.

Anyways, if you don't believe this, just look at the +/- numbers. They don't lie.

http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.html?T ... on=2012-13

Considering the Jazz are 31-26, it shows just how bad the starting lineup is in relation to the other lineups the Jazz use.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1527 ... st-lineups

[EricAnderson]

Jazz have the worst startign guards ive ever seen..they should have traded Millsap or Jefferson to balance the team out..

One problem is Favors and Kanter havent progressed all that much..i dont know if theyre starters in this league

[cjs55]

Al Jeff has been getting ripped on lately and i dont get it. Also the Jazz are doing just fine, they are ahead of multiple teams that imo have more talent than them. This is coming from a Blazer fan as well and im pretty sure we are supposed to dislike the Jazz? For them to be where they are with the guard rotation they have is actually quite remarkable imo

It's because if he can't defend then he must be absolute crap. Forget about his offense or rebounding or shotblocking...or being the only viable no.1 option on the team. That's fans for you. If he ain't perfect then he's a scrub.

The problem with Al is that his defense is literally so bad that it doesn't make up for those other things. He's simply not good enough on offense to do that. Here's a thread that compares him with Paul Millsap. Note these two players are playing with the same supporting cast, and have the same frontcourt backups that come in when they leave the game.

http://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?1478 ... ce-2010-11

[EricAnderson]

Unfortunately the Jazz can't afford to tank for several season to try and rebuild. There is no guarantee that will work either. There are teams that have been doing that for 10+ years and are still terrible.

If youre ognna rebuild/tank next year is the year to do it when it has a chance to be a legendary draft..

Ususally im all for tanking/rebuilding of doing whatever it takes to get the 8th seed and get smahsed in 4 or 5 games if your not a young team on the rise but this is not the year to tank in what could be a legendarily bad draft..

[cjs55]

Jazz have the worst startign guards ive ever seen..they should have traded Millsap or Jefferson to balance the team out..

One problem is Favors and Kanter havent progressed all that much..i dont know if theyre starters in this league

Favors has a 17.4 PER and is an excellent defender. He's a starter right now in the NBA for most teams. And he'll be a starter next year for sure.

Kanter is still very young and has basically played very little basketball (relatively speaking) up to this point in his life. I wouldn't expect him to be good for a couple more years. Despite that, he still has an above average PER of 16.5, and has excellent touch around the rim shooting 53.5%, and is a great rebounder. I think he'll be ok.

[mg]

The Millers want to make the playoffs at all costs since it means an extra few million in revenue in their pockets. It seems hollow to me to make the playoffs with a bunch of vets that likely have no future with the team.

The young players, Favors in particular, should be getting much more playing time but Ty Corbin is going to run Al Jefferson and the other 'vets' out there in order to get smashed in the first round of the playoffs. It's not like the old days where teams had years to develop their talent. The rookie wage scale clock is running and they will have to make huge decisions on all their young players soon. Favors can be offered a max extension before the start of next season. Other teams like Portland give their rookie plenty of pt and they are also trying to make the playoffs.

[EricAnderson]

Jazz have the worst startign guards ive ever seen..they should have traded Millsap or Jefferson to balance the team out..

One problem is Favors and Kanter havent progressed all that much..i dont know if theyre starters in this league

Favors has a 17.4 PER and is an excellent defender. He's a starter right now in the NBA for most teams. And he'll be a starter next year for sure.

Kanter is still very young and has basically played very little basketball (relatively speaking) up to this point in his life. I wouldn't expect him to be good for a couple more years. Despite that, he still has an above average PER of 16.5, and has excellent touch around the rim shooting 53.5%, and is a great rebounder. I think he'll be ok.

Favors youre right in that while hes limited offensively he fits much better with Al becasue he can hide his defencies on d a little

[EricAnderson]

The Millers want to make the playoffs at all costs since it means an extra few million in revenue in their pockets. It seems hollow to me to make the playoffs with a bunch of vets that likely have no future with the team.

The young players, Favors in particular, should be getting much more playing time but Ty Corbin is going to run Al Jefferson and the other 'vets' out there in order to get smashed in the first round of the playoffs. It's not like the old days where teams had years to develop their talent. The rookie wage scale clock is running and they will have to make huge decisions on all their young players soon. Favors can be offered a max extension before the start of next season. Other teams like Portland give their rookie plenty of pt and they are also trying to make the playoffs.

Thast always a dilmena in the nba..

A team that should be rebuilding and playing its young players but because an owner is just worried about selling a few playoff games a year and not worried bout eventually trying to build something sustainable at a high level for along time you have a team stuck in nba medicortiy which is the worst place to be,,

[TwentyOne920]

The Jazz are using Hayward as their Manu Ginobili or James Harden, in that everyone can see he's talented enough to start but comes off the bench to balance the offense.

Foye's utility comes as the resident shooter (I think he can easily surpass Memo Okur's franchise record of 3 point makes in a game or two already).

[hoops4life]

[quote="EricAnderson"]Jazz have the worst startign guards ive ever seen..they should have traded Millsap or Jefferson to balance the team out../quote]

Easier said then done. By all accounts out there, only heaping piles of hot trash were offered, nothing of real substance.

Don't give me, "You have to get something back for nothing." I don't believe it. They didn't want to hamstring their cap space over the next few years.