The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[TheChosen618]

I disagree, I think this is his best season defensively. In 2012 the team defense was alot better. Wade is almost a liability right now and bosh has been getting absurd by every big man in the nba in the playoffs. Battier roles reduced unlike last year and they rely on lebron alot more especially against Parker. His help defense especially on those insane block have improved big time. His scoring role was definitely alot bigger in 2012, especially in the playoffs and at least you could predict 18 point from wade night in night out. Right now wade you never know what you're going to get outta him.

Heat 2012 Defensive rating - 4th in the league, 97.1
Heat 2013 Defensive Rating - 7th in the league, 100.5

I would say that the reason for this drop off is because of Lebron's defensive intensity drop off compared to last season (especially in the beginning of the season). I don't think it helps that Spo used far more small ball this season compared to last too.

I don't think the team was really better defensively either. The 2013 Heat team has Birdman who makes high energy defensive plays and swats shots. Although, I suppose you could argue that Joel is a better defender than he is since it's just strictly defense. What Andersen does do a lot better than Joel is catch and finish since Joel was a liability at that aspect.

Anyways, Lebron was like 3rd in the league in steals in 2012 whereas he wasn't even top 10 this season. And from watching the two play, it seemed like Lebron was a bit more focused and active in 2012 whereas in 2013, there are times where Lebron falls asleep defensively or gives up and gets blown by.

He actually seemed more active in general in 2012. He was crashing the offensive glass and making hustle plays far more often in 2012 than this season. It's not that he didn't do it in 2013 either because he did, just not as much compared to 2012. It is what I mean when Lebron James was more aggressive and hungry back in 2012 compared to 2013.

[Rasho_libre]

Iunnno this playoff version of Lebron has been he best and most importantly disciplined I've seen him defensively. Notice how he never fouls on those blind side blocks. Or tonight when tony parker was going down the court at the end of regulation to win it. Almost any other player there would have committee a foul. Lebron forced behind baseline and did not let him get a look at the rim. It was the same thing he did on durant game winner attempt in game 2 I believe.

[TheChosen618]

Iunnno this playoff version of Lebron has been he best and most importantly disciplined I've seen him defensively. Notice how he never fouls on those blind side blocks. Or tonight when tony parker was going down the court at the end of regulation to win it. Almost any other player there would have committee a foul. Lebron forced behind baseline and did not let him get a look at the rim. It was the same thing he did on durant game winner attempt in game 2 I believe.

His defense has looked fantastic in the Finals, but it hasn't been there too much in the rest of the playoffs.

I remember looking at a stat before Game 7 with Lebron guarding George, and George was kicking Lebron's ass completely.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... bron-james

George at the time scored 29 points with 10-13 shooting when Lebron was on him. This was actually after Game 2 of the ECF.

I think ability wise, 2013 is probably at the best defensively (more athletic this season than last and also smarter), but what I favor in 2012 was the consistency. He played defense with higher energy and higher consistency in 2012 than in 2013.

I suppose you could argue 2013 Lebron was better because of his help defense but that's much harder to gauge and evaluate than man defense. I remember that was Sideshowbob told me when he told me he thought 2013 Lebron was better defensively. He thought it was the mainly the help defense that made the difference and the fact that Miami went small ball more, so his man defense isn't as prevalent because of the rotations and defensive schemes and what not.

I'd probably give a slight edge to 2012 Lebron on a change of thought (slight instead of clearly). Lebron did say that 2013 was "probably" his best defensive season though.

[lorak]

James came in averaging 31.5 points in elimination games, highest in NBA history, according to a stat provided through the NBA by the Elias Sports Bureau.

and some people still call him choker...

[Rasho_libre]

Iunnno this playoff version of Lebron has been he best and most importantly disciplined I've seen him defensively. Notice how he never fouls on those blind side blocks. Or tonight when tony parker was going down the court at the end of regulation to win it. Almost any other player there would have committee a foul. Lebron forced behind baseline and did not let him get a look at the rim. It was the same thing he did on durant game winner attempt in game 2 I believe.

His defense has looked fantastic in the Finals, but it hasn't been there too much in the rest of the playoffs.

I remember looking at a stat before Game 7 with Lebron guarding George, and George was kicking Lebron's ass completely.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... bron-james

George at the time scored 29 points with 10-13 shooting when Lebron was on him. This was actually after Game 2 of the ECF.

I think ability wise, 2013 is probably at the best defensively (more athletic this season than last and also smarter), but what I favor in 2012 was the consistency. He played defense with higher energy and higher consistency in 2012 than in 2013.

I suppose you could argue 2013 Lebron was better because of his help defense but that's much harder to gauge and evaluate than man defense. I remember that was Sideshowbob told me when he told me he thought 2013 Lebron was better defensively. He thought it was the mainly the help defense that made the difference and the fact that Miami went small ball more, so his man defense isn't as prevalent because of the rotations and defensive schemes and what not.

I'd probably give a slight edge to 2012 Lebron on a change of thought (slight instead of clearly). Lebron did say that 2013 was "probably" his best defensive season though.

I can understand the man defense thing form a consistency stand point. To me his hell defense is night and day compared to last year mainly due to his better mobility this year. Back to topic on man defense he completely shut down Parker and George when he had had to. In game 7 when Lebron became the primary defender on Paul was completely shut down. Tonight it looked Parker couldn't even get at him if he wanted to. His defensive fundamental have changed especially when he. Is locked in man2man. He seems to get lower and play his length more now than ever. And if you beat him hell alway have some of the best recovery I've ever seen from a defender. To summarize if you mean cosistancy I could see where you are coming from but from the defense he has played in the playoffs so far it's looked the best yet.

[Rasho_libre]

James came in averaging 31.5 points in elimination games, highest in NBA history, according to a stat provided through the NBA by the Elias Sports Bureau.

and some people still call him choker...

You gotta understand love him or hate him when it comes to basketball viewers, fans, critics they are all obsessed with him, there are very few people I would take over lebron when facing elimination.

[GSP]

Lebron played 50 mins tonight.......how many do u think he will play next game?

And Sideshowbob ARE YOU STILL WITH US BRO???

[GSP]

Btw guys this is now the 3rd straight year Lebron has played 900+minutes in the playoffs. Kobe was the only other player to have 3 900 minutes played playoffs but they werent consecutive (he had 863 in 08) and Lebron also logged 893 in 07.

Heres the full list: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

[orangeparka]

Loved his game today starting the fourth. Was aggressive in the fourth, and even when his shot isn't falling, you like to see him take them. That three was just amazing.

The Headband Game!

[Rasho_libre]

Btw guys this is now the 3rd straight year Lebron has played 900+minutes in the playoffs. Kobe was the only other player to have 3 900 minutes played playoffs but they werent consecutive (he had 863 in 08) and Lebron also logged 893 in 07.

Heres the full list: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

Others have logged as many minutes but they don't do as much for their teams that Lebron does. In those 3 years of 900 minutes. He came off one Olympic, chased tp, dirk, Durant, rose, pg, melo around. Guarded every position possible. I'm surprised we haven't seen a drop off for his play yet. Wen Kobe was paying those minutes he had nowhere near the responsibility.

[TheChosen618]

To summarize if you mean cosistancy I could see where you are coming from but from the defense he has played in the playoffs so far it's looked the best yet.

Yep, from an ability stand point, he is better defensively this season. From a consistency standpoint, I would say he was better last season because I value consistency more.

I think we'll see his best defensive season in 2014 anyways because I think he'll gun for DPOY.

Also, I think we can come to the conclusion that Wade has been the one holding Lebron back in the finals. It seems like all of Lebron's big plays and scoring happens when Wade is out. When the team has a bunch of snipers out there in Chalmers, Allen, and Miller, he thrives. It is why I still don't think Wade and Lebron can co-exist offensively. They are great defensively together though.

Anyone have numbers of Lebron when Wade is off the court in this series? I feel like it will be massively different although maybe not because of the way Lebron padded his stats at the end of the 4th in most games.

One more thing to add is that, I think Lebron will be like Kobe/MJ when talking about his one season peak. By that, I mean that I think we'll have many different versions where we could argue what his peak is, (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, etc.).

He won't be Tracy McGrady or Tim Duncan in the standpoint where everyone knows what his absolute best season was.

[Jordan23Forever]

James came in averaging 31.5 points in elimination games, highest in NBA history, according to a stat provided through the NBA by the Elias Sports Bureau.

and some people still call him choker...

Wow, people are really trying to paint this game as a Lebron victory? I don't care how many points he had in the 4th, he showed again that he is useless when he doesn't get his transition buckets or build up a head of steam going to the basket. Even last night when he finally scored a basket or two on a post-up in the 4th, it was because of Miami's epic spacing. Just Lebron on an island with no one within 10 feet of him. Anyone trying to paint last night as a Lebron victory is kidding themselves - dude exposed himself as a very limited player again, and was invisible for most of the game. Nearly every one of his baskets in the 4th came within 5 feet of the rim save for that late 3 - and that was after he clanked the first one.

Guy is just a very limited offensive player. All nonsensical talk (GOAT this, GOAT that) needs to die after this fail of a series where he has been wretched and/or invisible for like 80+% of the Finals. Real talk.

[lorak]

James came in averaging 31.5 points in elimination games, highest in NBA history, according to a stat provided through the NBA by the Elias Sports Bureau.

and some people still call him choker...

Wow, people are really trying to paint this game as a Lebron victory? I don't care how many points he had in the 4th, he showed again that he is useless when he doesn't get his transition buckets or build up a head of steam going to the basket. Even last night when he finally scored a basket or two on a post-up in the 4th, it was because of Miami's epic spacing. Just Lebron on an island with no one within 10 feet of him. Anyone trying to paint last night as a Lebron victory is kidding themselves - dude exposed himself as a very limited player again, and was invisible for most of the game. Nearly every one of his baskets in the 4th came within 5 feet of the rim save for that late 3 - and that was after he clanked the first one.

Guy is just a very limited offensive player. All nonsensical talk (GOAT this, GOAT that) needs to die after this fail of a series where he has been wretched and/or invisible for like 80+% of the Finals. Real talk.

I wish we had here on the realGM "flagrant foul" button right next to "and1". I would give you one right now.

[kabstah]

James came in averaging 31.5 points in elimination games, highest in NBA history, according to a stat provided through the NBA by the Elias Sports Bureau.

and some people still call him choker...

Wow, people are really trying to paint this game as a Lebron victory? I don't care how many points he had in the 4th, he showed again that he is useless when he doesn't get his transition buckets or build up a head of steam going to the basket. Even last night when he finally scored a basket or two on a post-up in the 4th, it was because of Miami's epic spacing. Just Lebron on an island with no one within 10 feet of him. Anyone trying to paint last night as a Lebron victory is kidding themselves - dude exposed himself as a very limited player again, and was invisible for most of the game. Nearly every one of his baskets in the 4th came within 5 feet of the rim save for that late 3 - and that was after he clanked the first one.

Guy is just a very limited offensive player. All nonsensical talk (GOAT this, GOAT that) needs to die after this fail of a series where he has been wretched and/or invisible for like 80+% of the Finals. Real talk.

This is like saying Muhammed Ali is useless when he doesn't get to punch the other fighter.

Last I checked, transition buckets and charging the basket with a full head of steam were legitimate ways to score. It's not like the Spurs stopped him from getting to the lane either, because as you said, all of his baskets in the 4th save one came from within feet.

[Jordan23Forever]

I wish we had here on the realGM "flagrant foul" button right next to "and1". I would give you one right now.

Why, because I watched the game and have an opinion that diverges from the Lebron love-fest in here? Fact: he was invisible through 3 quarters, bricking shots (even open layups!) and looking scared. Then he gets some buckets in the 4th (most at the rim, with a few garbage/broken plays that went in his favor; also a couple of post-ups with no one anywhere near him due to Miami's spacing). Then he again starts clanking shots and committing crucial TO's (two TO's in the last 40 seconds of regulation and 3 in the final 3:00 - shades of the Pacers series) and is bailed out by his team's offensive rebounding and Ray Allen.

Sorry, but this dude is nowhere close to the GOAT. He was exposed this series to anyone with an objective eye. Limited game, mentally fragile. Invisible for 80% of a Finals series. Period.

[LikeABosh]

Jordan23, you can lube up somewhere else.

Yeah, Lebron scoring all those points in the 4th was just him being lucky. "If he didn't have 3 point shooters then he wouldn't have had the spacing he needed." Really? No kidding

[Jordan23Forever]

Jordan23, you can lube up somewhere else.

Yeah, Lebron scoring all those points in the 4th was just him being lucky. "If he didn't have 3 point shooters then he wouldn't have had the spacing he needed." Really? No kidding

Actually, a couple of the baskets were luck (the Wade miss that went right into his hands for the dunk, for instance). And I never said his scoring in the 4th was "lucky," just that he was invisible for most of the game and has proven to be pretty useless if he doesn't have a chance to get a head of steam going to the basket.

Funny that he can only be effective with a small ball lineup with 4 shooters on the floor with him. Like I said: a limited offensive player who was exposed big time this series, win or lose.

[lorak]

[ Fact: he was invisible through 3 quarters,

5 points and 5 assist in 1st quarter, when Duncan also played great (6/6 FG), but despite Tim's very good play Heat had lead after 1st - mainly because of LeBron. And so on.

I think you are trying to put James in as bad light as possible, because as Jordan's fan you are afraid that LeBron with every year is closer and closer to MJ.

And BTW, sure, James has his ups and downs during these finals, but he's playing against great defensive team. Jordan also struggled ve similarly good defenses in playoffs (NYK, MIami, Sonics).

[LikeABosh]

Funny that he can only be effective with a small ball lineup with 4 shooters on the floor with him. Like I said: a limited offensive player who was exposed big time this series, win or lose.

Let me ask you something....is a 13/5/5 half an effective half? He didn't have that...I'm just asking

[Jordan23Forever]

[ Fact: he was invisible through 3 quarters,

5 points and 5 assist in 1st quarter, when Duncan also played great (6/6 FG), but despite Tim's very good play Heat had lead after 1st - mainly because of LeBron. And so on.

I think you are trying to put James in as bad light as possible, because as Jordan's fan you are afraid that LeBron with every year is closer and closer to MJ.

And BTW, sure, James has his ups and downs during these finals, but he's playing against great defensive team. Jordan also struggled ve similarly good defenses in playoffs (NYK, MIami, Sonics).

Keep Jordan's name out of this please - Lebron is nowhere near him, and this series is all the proof anyone (anyone who's intellectually honest, at least) needs of that.

lol @ "great defensive team." We can all see the caliber of defense that is being played against Lebron (read: not much), and to compare the Spurs' defense on him this series to that of the Knicks or Sonics on MJ is a JOKE, and betrays a profound bias. They are single covering Lebron all series and basically daring him to shoot. he gets the ball, is at the 18-20 foot mark, has 7 feet of space and...doesn't know what to do with himself.

lol @ you trying to act as if SA has thrown the kitchen sink at him defensively this series. They have single covered him and in the process exposed his limited offensive game. That's why he's been invisible for 80% of the entire series. Best player in the world - your GOAT - but invisible for 80% of a Finals series. Please...

is a 13/5/5 half an effective half

Depends on the shooting percentage and also how the player played. If they were playing timid and shook (as Lebron did much of last night and much of the series) and could/should have realistically had a much better performance based on the way he was being played, then no, it's not effective. If they were running hard doubles at him to get the ball out of his hands, denying him the ball, taking intentional fouls to deny scoring opportunities, and he's like 4-7 FG for those 13 points, then yes, 13/5/5 can be an effective half for a player of his caliber.

But I watched this game, and this series, with my own eyes, and this guy got exposed big time again and again.