The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[JulesWinnfield]

League MVPs+Finals MVPs
*with the obvious note that finals MVPs did not come into play until '69 (sorry Bill Russell and Wilt)

MJ 11
Kareem 8
Lebron 6
Magic 6
Duncan 5
Bird 5
Russell 5*
Wilt 5*

Does Lebron catch MJ's 11?

[PCProductions]

I dunno, how many MVPs do think Lebron has left in him? I see him getting 1 maybe 2 more.

[Talent Chaser]

2 more MVP's and 3 more championships sounds right. It really depends how long he can maintain his style of play, I give him 3 more seasons of him being able to play the way he does before he has to re-invent himself. That's simply a guess though, he could maintain for much longer considering his conditioning and freakishness.

[NO-KG-AI]

The media is aching to give Durant an MVP though. If he finishes with a better record any time soon, he's getting it.

[JordansBulls]

The media is aching to give Durant an MVP though. If he finishes with a better record any time soon, he's getting it.

They should had given it to him in 2012 then if that was the case when OKC had a better record and when Miami was the #2 seed again.

[PCProductions]

The media is aching to give Durant an MVP though. If he finishes with a better record any time soon, he's getting it.

That's been my line of thinking this whole year. Lebron just won't win three straight with the voters even if he plays the exact way he played last year

[Mohanad]

^Don't know why it's so hard for you to grasp the concept that 2013 Wade is a lot worse than 2011 Wade, and that Wade's career up until this point tell us nothing about the player that Wade is right now.

He sucked in the playoffs this year, and got carried by LeBron. He most definitely was a liability for large stretches throughout the playoff run.

Without LeBron, Wade can kiss the last 2 titles and 3 Finals appearances goodbye, and his decline would be a much bigger story around the league. Without Wade, LeBron would have led some other team to the title. Wade has definitely benefitted WAY more from LeBron than LeBron from Wade.

How hard is it to grasp that if Wade doesn't put up all-star numbers in both the 2012 & 13 finals Lebron is still ring less. Look at Wade's career before Lebron arrived, won nearly every major award in the NBA. But Wade needs Lebron... Miami's title window comes down to his health. Without Wade being a primary all star, Miami wont win another ring. If he takes another step back in his game and continues to decline, Miami isn't going to 3-peat. It's just that simple. Dang, some liability....

[Mohanad]

Again, join the rest of us in 2013.
D-Wade is a clear and apparent sidekick on the two time repeat champ Heat to anyone paying attention, I can't believe we are debating this. In fact for major portions of this postseason he wasn't even consistently their 2nd most impactful player, so calling him a sidekick in some respects is generous (prior to the finals). The guy went large stretches in this postseason where he was useless.

Miami was chronologically closer to a 15 win season than their 2006 title when Lebron arrived, they had gone 4 years in a row without getting out of round 1 until Lebron came to town. People act like Lebron joined a dynasty in progress, the Heat were barely relevant in the NBA landscape for 4 years prior despite Wade still possessing prime powers. Hell yes Lebron has done more for Wade's legacy than vice versa. Quote Wade's career accomplishments all you want, join us in the present.

Lebron didn't join Wade's team. He took Wade's team

Do you not know the impact he has on the defense? I'll join you in the present, the NBA finals. Not to mention how deadly Miami was this season (and the past) when Wade was on his game. You'll never admit the vast stretches when Miami is near unbeatable when Wade is on his game. You love ignoring it...it makes zero sense that Lebron has carried Wade's legacy meanwhile he was already an established hall of famer before his arrival. Without him being a primary all star when it matters most, Miami wont win another ring.

[Mohanad]

My beef is people calling him useless in Miami's recent championships and calling him a liability. Even though the evidence is there that Miami plays at an elite level when he's on his game (The 27 game win streak, every vital playoff game) Miami and Lebron need him next season to win another ring. It just that simple...

Edit: Thank God for this. Got his left knee drained and required about eight hours of game-day therapy just so he could play in Game 7 (23 & 10 on 52% shooting with 2 blks and steal) This is alarming for Miami. If those knee's give out, Miami doesn't win another ring.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/st ... e-7-finals

[GreenHat]

Yeah, I though Wade was the better post player in this PS. Granted, he's never so tightly defended and doubled as LeBron is, but Wade always gets wherever he wants in the post and has a lovely hook shot to finish.

There was a stat out there about just how bad Wade has been in the post. The thing is when he makes it, it looks good but he has been extremely ineffective down there.

[GreenHat]

top 10 all time, but not top 5. he took a shortcut to get his rings, that's a fact. when was the last time a player in his class, in their prime jumped ship to another hall of famers team? hell the most recent one was charles barkley and kevin johnson was no d wade.

lets not forget the fact that while he had many great moments, he also got very lucky that chris bosh and ray allen saved his legacy because lebron made some terrible plays at the end of game 6 that people simply gloss over now. he will never surpass MJ, so lets halt that narrative. has he passed kobe? yes, kobe's last finals mvp was a joke and makes people overlook how awful he was in 10' game 7.

i say, jordan, russell, wilt, magic, kareem, hakeem, duncan, and shaq are ahead of him. many of you will scoff at me putting shaq or hakeem there, but they were just as dominant as lebron, in different ways.

He exercised his option in free agency and took less money to go to another team.

All those other guys chased the most money.

Putting winning over money is a trait that I am glad our best player has and I don't see it as a negative.

[John Thomas]

Wade is the sidekick now but still a more savvy scorer than LeBron in the halfcourt imo. Not a better scorer, but less prone to being sort of stymied for long spells by a packed paint and then just disengaging into super pass mode. Wade has dozens of moves between mid-range to the basket. Lot's of stop and go, side to side, jukes, ball fakes, etc, whereas James is more A to B line right at the rim from the perimeter.

LeBron thinks too much at times, and Wade just attacks when he gets his chances with the ball. That aspect is absolutely vital for Miami. And you saw it a few times in this series, where those gears were grinding in James's head and Wade sort of took the reins and made things happen to fill in the gaps.

If there ever comes a point where Wade cannot perform that sort of 'on demand' scorer role, and we saw it at times through these playoffs due to his injury, Miami is in big trouble, and the Miami Cavs jokes start looking to have substance. Bosh... he's just not a dependable answer of any sort.

LeBron + shooters might be ideal for James, and for emergency situations to 'clean up' the Heat offense which bogs down with both of them at times, but there comes a point where you need that secondary shot creator before getting through all the best opposition.

big reason why it might look "easier" for wade to score in the halfcourt is because hes a smaller body and despite his power style game, he's very agile and can find lanes easier than lebron. I wouldn't attribute it singlehandedly on skill or mentality; his body certainly makes it easier for him.

[GreenHat]

Jordan had an aggressiveness and decisiveness about him that LeBron doesn't, and yes, that's why he would succeed in this era with more 3pt shooters around him as well.

But I'm watching those clips, and I see a paint that's much easier to get into than today, because of today's zone defenses. I see Jordan forcing a lot of crap shots against double and triple teams that he doesn't need to. I still see shooters in Pip (he loved the shortened line), Kerr, and Kukoc. I see Jordan getting a lot of star treatment and ticky tack foul calls that LeBron doesn't really get. And the physicality of the defenders...LeBron goes through the same thing, are you kidding me? He's constantly getting pushed, held, bumped, and knocked around.

The one thing that's different is yes, they're not conceding the open midrange jumper to Jordan...but there's also not nearly the same amount of rim protection as we saw in the Finals and in the ECF, and Jordan is clearly not as willing of a passer as LeBron.

But I have no problem admitting that peak Jordan was a better player than LeBron (although 13 LeBron>96 Jordan). It's just that this constant attempt to prop up the 80s and 90s and act as if they were so obviously superior to the 00s is annoying. Every other creation in the history of mankind evolves over time except for basketball, apparently.

Not only do those posters think basketball hasn't improved, they think it keeps getting worse and worse as basketball drifts away from the guys they grew up with.

I see the same things as you. Better defense on midrange shots (which is the shots you want the other team to take) but the team defense is lacking.

I also agree with you that Jordan was getting a lot of ticky tack calls that Lebron doesn't get (which is ironic given the claims of the opposite by Jordan fans) and more forcing up bad shots. Lebron can improve by looking for his own shot more often but his overall impact would go down if he started forcing bad shots like that.

[GreenHat]

Jordan had an aggressiveness and decisiveness about him that LeBron doesn't, and yes, that's why he would succeed in this era with more 3pt shooters around him as well.

But I'm watching those clips, and I see a paint that's much easier to get into than today, because of today's zone defenses. I see Jordan forcing a lot of crap shots against double and triple teams that he doesn't need to. I still see shooters in Pip (he loved the shortened line) and Kukoc. I see Jordan getting a lot of star treatment and ticky tack foul calls that LeBron doesn't really get. And the physicality of the defenders...LeBron goes through the same thing, are you kidding me? He's constantly getting pushed, held, bumped, and knocked around.

The one thing that's different is yes, they're not conceding the open midrange jumper to Jordan...but there's also not nearly the same amount of rim protection as we saw in the Finals and in the ECF, and Jordan is clearly not as willing of a passer as LeBron.

But I have no problem admitting that peak Jordan was a better player than LeBron (although 13 LeBron>96 Jordan). It's just that this constant attempt to prop up the 80s and 90s and act as if they were so obviously superior to the 00s is annoying. Every other creation in the history of mankind evolves over time except for basketball, apparently.

i disagree with the underlined. teams don't play zone defense today any more than they used to. and the personnel protecting the rim was vastly superior in say 1998 than it is today. just compare the centers and pf's from back then to today. it's not close.

and teams are forced to stay at home on the 3-pt shooters, so packing the paint is harder to do today. 30k attempts in 1998 to 50k today is a massive leap - a totally different game really. you basically can't pack the paint in today's game.

in the 80's and 90's, packing the paint like the spurs did to lebron was a standard, not some gimmick.

i agree with what you are saying about mj having more energy when he catches the ball - he doesn't stand and wait and decide like lebron - mj catches the ball and is making quick fakes or is already gone before you can blink.

portland tried guarding mj the way the spurs did. it didn't work. i suspect that is the way a lot of teams would have to guard mj with no-hand checking and the better floor spacing.

Team definitely play more zone now. More than that they play much more of that strong side overload today. Team defense is much more sophisticated now.

Part of the reason you can't pack the paint against the Heat is because Lebron is such a good 3 point shooter. He is a 40% now from 3. The other wing on the team is Wade who is a bad three point shooter. You just talked about how important spacing is today but how bad would the spacing be with Jordan and Wade as your wings? You can't absolve Jordan of the blame of spacing. He was a bad three point shooter himself (until the league moved the line to right within his range)

I agree that Jordan was quicker with the ball but a lot of that was predicated on defenses (and offenses) being so simple back then.

Portland might have tried to play the same defense but they had Kevin Duckworth instead of Duncan and Adelman instead of Popovich.

[HilltopperJay]

Anyone care to predict LeBron's box score production for next year? 27/8/7-ish seems like a safe bet, but maybe Spoelstra finally reduces his minutes during the course of the regular season and that drops a bit. Also, hard to imagine he could top his fg% from last year, but who knows. Hopefully he can creep up just over the 80% mark as a free throw shooter, I see him working on that a lot this summer given his comments earlier in the year about seeing himself in the 50/40/90 club as feasible.

I love these types of exercises but it's hopeless to try unless we know whether he's going to be more of a big next year, or if Wade will continue to drop off and LeBron will have more ball-handling duties...

I expect to see a rise in scoring at the very least. 28.5-29 ppg is something I'd put money on. His rebounds will go up as well I think, maybe 8.5-9 as the front-line continues to get older (Andersen and Battier are both 35+) and he spends more time at the 4. Assists are all dependent on Wade. I could see anything from 6.5 to 8.

28.5/8.5/7 is my bet, maybe something like 63-65% TS, 32-33 PER.

Yeah, it's definitely hard to try and accurately predict, but still fun to speculate on. I think (and hope) that Wade's minutes will go down a bit more and he might get some of the Tim Duncan treatment (DNP's for rest scattered throughout the season), so that he can be fully healthy come playoff time.

It will be interesting to see if he refines his post game some--I hope he does. A more functional and diversified post game could slightly increase his fg% and rebounding numbers, since he would be spending more time in the post. I don't know though, I feel like regardless of how far along his post game comes, he likes the perimeter more. I don't think he'll ever fully transition to the post unless a severe decline in athleticism forces him to (which I assume wouldn't happen until his mid-30's, but who knows?).

Do you believe we have seen LeBron's peak season yet? It sounds like you believe next year will be better than last (which I agree with).

[GreenHat]

Do you believe we have seen LeBron's peak season yet? It sounds like you believe next year will be better than last (which I agree with).

We keep saying yes he keeps saying no.

I think he will be better next year but it could just be wishful thinking.

[TheChosen618]

Do you believe we have seen LeBron's peak season yet? It sounds like you believe next year will be better than last (which I agree with).

Next season is pretty much his last chance to improve and hit a higher peak. I doubt Lebron will peak at age 30 or older.

[toodles23]

Anyone care to predict LeBron's box score production for next year? 27/8/7-ish seems like a safe bet, but maybe Spoelstra finally reduces his minutes during the course of the regular season and that drops a bit. Also, hard to imagine he could top his fg% from last year, but who knows. Hopefully he can creep up just over the 80% mark as a free throw shooter, I see him working on that a lot this summer given his comments earlier in the year about seeing himself in the 50/40/90 club as feasible.

I love these types of exercises but it's hopeless to try unless we know whether he's going to be more of a big next year, or if Wade will continue to drop off and LeBron will have more ball-handling duties...

I expect to see a rise in scoring at the very least. 28.5-29 ppg is something I'd put money on. His rebounds will go up as well I think, maybe 8.5-9 as the front-line continues to get older (Andersen and Battier are both 35+) and he spends more time at the 4. Assists are all dependent on Wade. I could see anything from 6.5 to 8.

28.5/8.5/7 is my bet, maybe something like 63-65% TS, 32-33 PER.

I think Lebron's raw stats, minutes, and PER will go down next year, even if it's his best season ability-wise (which I think it will be). I expect he'll conserve his energy more next season after experiencing dead legs in the Finals.

[Rasho_libre]

^ i definitely see his stats going down next year. I don't think they will care too much about regular season success as much. But knowing Lebron and his competivness who knows. We will definitely see the calls come back for his favour after this abysmal year of getting jobbed by officials.

[John Thomas]

i can see improvements on the horizon for his FT% AND his overall midrange game....
his post game is still often underwhelming but he can get it done in there
He just needs to start transitioning into a finesse game soon