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Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#101 » by queridiculo » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:33 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Which is why I prefer the less-athletic Olynyk over Zeller. Olynyk is able to score around, and also up and under through contact. Cody is really fast and I think a sure thing to score in transition, but not in half court. Olynyk is going to destroy opposing bigs with both pick and pop and pick and roll. Olynyk will finish at the rim in half court and will be a good end-of-game scorer. He can score ugly. (No pun intended).


I like how Olynyk finishes around the basket, he's incredibly crafty. What worries me about him as a prospect is his disastrous defense. I don't ever see him as a starter in this league because of that deficiency, and his terrible height to wingspan ratio also makes me wonder how effective he will be as a rebounder in this league.

Olynyk seems like a great pickup in the late teens for a team that's looking for depth, not a starter that can potentially develop into franchise cornerstone.

Out of the bigs only Noel and Len fit that bill, and if it was up to me, we'd pick between those two with Porter as the consolation price.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#102 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:34 pm

LyricalRico wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Hell, if Bennett's physical profile was like Drummond's we might be having a slightly different conversation here.


:nod:

Yep, his flaws would be easier to overlook if he was 6'10. But he's not.

EDIT: And actually his size would be easier to overlook if he played defense. But he doesn't. :D


Glad you tacked on that EDIT. Because if he was 6'10" than as of right now his standing reach would still be only be 6'10". The kid just does not bother to actually lift his hands up and wave them around on defense. I'd be curious to see if that aspect of his game develops a bit. I have to assume it will.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#103 » by WizarDynasty » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:34 pm

Dark Faze wrote:I think Oladipo is a classic case of trying to overthink things and try to project a player based completely on efficiency and athletic ability.

The guy has had low usage every year of his career for a reason. If you're a dominant offensive player you don't purposefully not look to attack. Maybe in year 1 you try to stay out of guys way, but by year three you should be filling it up and we're talking about Indiana here, not a stacked Kentucky team.

The stats point to Oladipo being a very smart, efficient player that can defend. Sounds like a roleplayer to me. And you can't count on his long ball because of low sample size and it not being any good until his third season.

Also thinking he's going to be a dominant defender is hard to do because it's not like he's going to just step into the league as Tony Allen. Tony Allen is about as good as you can possibly be defensively at that size.


all this comparison of dwade to olap is funny.

dwade sophmore year go to line 249 times in 33 games. with a 7.5 score.

victor go to the line 144 times in 36 games. giving him a score of 4. What's worse, he got to line fewer times in a junior year than he did in his sophmore year.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#104 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:36 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Glad you tacked on that EDIT. Because if he was 6'10" than as of right now his standing reach would still be only be 6'10". The kid just does not bother to actually lift his hands up and wave them around on defense. I'd be curious to see if that aspect of his game develops a bit. I have to assume it will.


Yep, he needs some lessons from Antawn on how to properly fake defensive effort. :lol:
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#105 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:37 pm

Rafael122 wrote:
DCZards wrote:
MikeTheKid wrote:Wally Szczerbiak just said on 106.7 that Otto is the best fit but Anthony Bennett has top 3 star potential in the draft. He wants Otto but thinks Bennett is the star!


I think Wally has it right. I'd like to see the Zards draft Porter but I wouldn't be disappointed if they picked Bennett. Bennett has his share of flaws (effort on D, maturity, size for a PF, possible weight issues) but his upside trumps Otto's, imo.

I'm betting that a lot of the posters stressing out over Bennett's "red flags" are the same ones who were overly concerned about Drummond's so-called red flags.


Drummond wasn't even on my radar last year. It was Beal the whole way through.


That's an issue to me. All players should be considered and evaluated for their ability, liabilities, and potential developmental upside.

The players that absolutely should have been looked at seriously by us last year at the final bell would have been Davis (hope and a prayer), Drummond (best player in the draft potential), MKG (incredible work rate, tremendous leader, great D, great rebounding, iffy shooting at best), Barnes (why wasn't he better? why didn't we see the athleticism?), Beal (why the slow as molasses start w/regards to his beautiful stroke, what about his athleticism?) etc. Nobody in that 1-10 range should have been ignored. We needed everything and could use everything. The only red flag that might have dropped Drummond was the knucklehead quotient rumor after we spent two years kicking dumb, dumber, and dumbest to the curb. And the knucklehead rumor ended up being totally bogus, which should have made a him a top 2-3 pick easy, but pass down the rumor(s) with a purpose always fly around draft day.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#106 » by queridiculo » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:37 pm

doclinkin wrote:Glad you tacked on that EDIT. Because if he was 6'10" than as of right now his standing reach would still be only be 6'10". The kid just does not bother to actually lift his hands up and wave them around on defense. I'd be curious to see if that aspect of his game develops a bit. I have to assume it will.


I generally don't have any hope that players will develop that aspect of their game if they haven't shown the motivation to do so at this point.

Bennett's lack of motor on defense is a serious red flag, you can't win with guys like him.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#107 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:41 pm

FAH1223 wrote:Chris Sheridian is on 106.7 right now and he is supremely confident the Wizards will take Bennett and they think Bennett is a "beast" and will also be a center peice with Wiggins on the Canadian National Team.

Guys, I want to vomit.


So odd, on the same day within hours of each other, Ford tweets that the Wiz have begun to swing to Porter in the great debate, and Sheridan posts that we've fixated on Bennett. Reminds me of the Niners in '05 (I'm from the bay area, and only moved to lake Tahoe that previous summer), and how they went back and forth on Rodgers and Alex Smith through the process, me and my old roommate screaming bloody rumor that they not be idiots and simply select Rodgers, but in the final week they swerved to Smith over Rodgers, consolidated that view in the last two or three days before they made the pick. A pick that changed the entire future of the NFC, and pro football itself for the forseeable future.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#108 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:42 pm

queridiculo wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Which is why I prefer the less-athletic Olynyk over Zeller. Olynyk is able to score around, and also up and under through contact. Cody is really fast and I think a sure thing to score in transition, but not in half court. Olynyk is going to destroy opposing bigs with both pick and pop and pick and roll. Olynyk will finish at the rim in half court and will be a good end-of-game scorer. He can score ugly. (No pun intended).


I like how Olynyk finishes around the basket, he's incredibly crafty. What worries me about him as a prospect is his disastrous defense. I don't ever see him as a starter in this league because of that deficiency, and his terrible height to wingspan ratio also makes me wonder how effective he will be as a rebounder in this league.

Olynyk seems like a great pickup in the late teens for a team that's looking for depth, not a starter that can potentially develop into franchise cornerstone.

Out of the bigs only Noel and Len fit that bill, and if it was up to me, we'd pick between those two with Porter as the consolation price.


Honestly, I have more concerns about Bennett's defense than Olynyk's. And I don't get why wingspan is STILL the go to measurement for measuring a person's length when that is not even true. His standing reach is acceptable and I think he can be passable at the position with a combination of effort & intelligence. As long as you have the prerequisite length, defense is mainly about effort. I saw nothing wrong with Olynyk's effort at Gonzaga. His defense wasn't always great, but the effort was there.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#109 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:43 pm

queridiculo wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Glad you tacked on that EDIT. Because if he was 6'10" than as of right now his standing reach would still be only be 6'10". The kid just does not bother to actually lift his hands up and wave them around on defense. I'd be curious to see if that aspect of his game develops a bit. I have to assume it will.


I generally don't have any hope that players will develop that aspect of their game if they haven't shown the motivation to do so at this point.

Bennett's lack of motor on defense is a serious red flag, you can't win with guys like him.

I'm not a proponent of drafting him, but remember that Bennett had the shoulder problem during last season. That'd be a valid excuse for him not raising his hands on defense.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#110 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:51 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
The entire reason I have doubts about Porter at the next level are inextricably linked to the particular qualities Leonard had, that Porter doesn't, namely, elite level athleticism, and outstanding defense that was projectable to the next level (there's a lot of sentiment out there that Porter's good to very good defense in college will be merely league average to above average at the next level due to the athleticism related issues). I love many things about Porter, but the precise reason I, and many others have concerns about him are precisely the things he lacked that Leonard had, which were elite at the next level qualities. Sure Porter was a better college player than Leonard. So what. Leonard was drafted based on his known skill set+projectable athletic ability, wherever Porter's drafted, it will be inspite of those characteristics which are lacking in him, but were present in Leonard.

Its not remotely disingenuous.

If being a better college player defined who was successful or not at the next level, the draft would be easy as hell. It isn't, because being a better college player, or a great college player doesn't necessarily mean squat when you jump up several levels in talent to the NBA.



So basically it all comes down to athleticism, despite the fact that some of the best man defenders of the last 10 years have been average to simply above average athletically--Bruce Bowen, Raja Bell, Tayshaun Prince, Shane Battier, older Ron Artest, Aaron Afflalo, etc.

The sort of system that Porter played in really can't be understated. Defensive focused, almost primarily in the half court (very very low percentage of his points scored were in transition), slow paced, and yet he still had high foul rates.

That bodes well for his offensive potential in a faster paced system that will get out in transition.


I have serious questions about a few aspects of Porter, and these questions are much bigger red flags to me, than Bennett gaining weight while injured, or even Len's highly uneven production, or Noel's injury. My first concern is the lack of athleticism, particularly on the offensive end, suggests he'll never be a difference maker on that side of the court. Now perhaps his work rate and habits (improved 3 point shot is in my view, both an outlier that isn't predictive of future production, but also an outlier that is predictive of how Otto will address issues in his game, w/WORK) can limit the issues he has in athleticism, but I tend to doubt it. I think he tops off as an average offensive weapon w/a slight chance of being above average. I worry that his ability to defend so well at Georgetown may not translate at an equal rate to the NBA. I worry that his limits athletically could leave him as no better than a solid defender at the next level, and if that happens, the pick could be a disaster.

My chief concern, as its been all along, is that he simply isn't an elite player in any phase or skill save for length. The rebounding rate is nice, and close to elite but not there, and the lack of athletic ability scares me there too, though his effort and work habits suggests he will max out whatever ability he has. Studying the draft for 25 years (in this sport in particular but also in others), the three trends that are most consistent harbingers of a dark future involve: having a lot of "good" skills, but no great ones, lacking athleticism to compete at the next level, and work habits and IQ. For me, Otto ticks off 2 of the 3 biggest red flag boxes there are. The one asset he does have, that is huge is that he does have ideal length, and his combo of work habits/work rate/BBIQ are off the charts. That could negate a great deal of the negative. The problem I have, is that I see far more "try hard, work hard" guys fail because they don't have the next level athleticism and elite skill(s), than I see guys fail that lack ideal work habits and BBIQ. You can't teach athleticism, and many of the skills. In most cases by the time you're 19-24, the development that happens is finishing touches, the key development already happened or did not happened in the players childhood or teenage hood. That's why the Spurs have eschewed using assets on so many young American players these days, the bad habits, and built in flaws that Pop hates, are already ingrained. The deal maker and deal breaker for me is to what degree a player is compromised by his lack of athleticism, or considerations on his work rate, work habits, BBIQ, athleticism, skill level etc.

For me, Otto is more compromised than Bennett, because we have far more evidence of what Otto is, than we have with Bennett. Earlier a poster suggested this was another reason to pass on Bennett, but for me it's actually a reason to focus more on Bennett. Bennett showed tremendous athleticism, and skill despite being injured for nearly a quarter of the season. What might we have? I do not know. Porter provides a bit more certainty for sure, but I simply don't think he's worth the 3 slot because of the ceiling issue. The criticism's of Bennett's issues are often more than fair, though some stray into inaccuracy, and outright fiction. Still, he definitely has more red flags in terms of concerns.

My issue is that Porter has more red flags in terms of ability to make a difference at the next level. You should not be taking a player 3rd, who you consider the 4th best option on your squad going forward. That simply makes no sense to me. If that's what you see when you evaluate him, a jack of all trades, contributor, who'll be the 4th best guy on your squad, then he has no business going 3rd, period, you should either trade down, trade the pick entirely, or pick an upside guy like a Len, or a Bennett, or a Noel if he fell, or Oladipo. I can see the justification for Porter, if you believe Pelton's analysis of him, particularly the age/length/work habits angel. Otherwise, the pick makes zero sense to me. It's aiming low and being satisfied with mediocrity for the forseeable future, and that's not good enough.

Here's that truth about it spurs article from last week:

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/06/the ... model.html


There's so many fallacies and broad generalizations in your post I wouldn't know where to begin.

But bottom line, your underrating Porter as an athlete, it's already mentioned he tested out athletically better than Kawhi Leonard who you tout as having elite athleticism.

Your also basically putting a ceiling on his skill level which is odd considering he just turned 20, is still younger than Bennett and improved his skill greatly b/w his frosh & sophomore seasons.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#111 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:52 pm

LyricalRico wrote:I keep seeing mocks slotting Trey Burke at #6 to NOH, but that doesn't make sense to me. Hasn't General Grevious been really good for them? And they also drafted Rivers last year (although he's been a disappointment so far). I would think they'd try to find a way to turn the pick into a SF.

Grevis (and Roberts) has been better than anyone could have expected, but from what I've heard - they want to upgrade at PG.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#112 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:53 pm

Ruzious wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Glad you tacked on that EDIT. Because if he was 6'10" than as of right now his standing reach would still be only be 6'10". The kid just does not bother to actually lift his hands up and wave them around on defense. I'd be curious to see if that aspect of his game develops a bit. I have to assume it will.


I generally don't have any hope that players will develop that aspect of their game if they haven't shown the motivation to do so at this point.

Bennett's lack of motor on defense is a serious red flag, you can't win with guys like him.

I'm not a proponent of drafting him, but remember that Bennett had the shoulder problem during last season. That'd be a valid excuse for him not raising his hands on defense.


Yeah, he couldn't even raise his arms on D, but he could still get up shots offensively and hit the boards.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#113 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
I generally don't have any hope that players will develop that aspect of their game if they haven't shown the motivation to do so at this point.

Bennett's lack of motor on defense is a serious red flag, you can't win with guys like him.

I'm not a proponent of drafting him, but remember that Bennett had the shoulder problem during last season. That'd be a valid excuse for him not raising his hands on defense.


Yeah, he couldn't even raise his arms on D, but he could still get up shots offensively and hit the boards.

Speaking as someone who's had rotator cuff problems - it's very easy to understand. My shooting was not impacted (still stunk), but raising my arm high over my head hurt quite a bit. In fact, I'd give him credit for being a better rebounder than the numbers showed - now that you mention it. If you're trying to change me into a Bennett fan, you're doing a good job of it by being overly aggressive in hating him.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#114 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Knighthonor wrote:I would avoid Zeller if the Bobcats are looking for him. Bobcats have a history of bad picks. Picking MKG over Barnes. Lol


Cho's a great GM, and MKG is a great prospect. We'll see what happens with his shot. Making final judgments now on a player's down side is a stretch to me. Good signs, all great and well, but immediately saying a player is garbage because he had a solid but sub par season for a #2 overall is a stretch to me, especially considering the situations Barnes and MKG had. Barnes landed in an ideal wonderland, while MKG landed in a dumpster fire w/some joker squirting more lighter fluid into it.

Both Cho and MKG have a lot of work to do to overcome being run into the ground, much like us as fans psychologically coping with our own MJ in the F.O.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#115 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Dat2U wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Which is why I prefer the less-athletic Olynyk over Zeller. Olynyk is able to score around, and also up and under through contact. Cody is really fast and I think a sure thing to score in transition, but not in half court. Olynyk is going to destroy opposing bigs with both pick and pop and pick and roll. Olynyk will finish at the rim in half court and will be a good end-of-game scorer. He can score ugly. (No pun intended).


I like how Olynyk finishes around the basket, he's incredibly crafty. What worries me about him as a prospect is his disastrous defense. I don't ever see him as a starter in this league because of that deficiency, and his terrible height to wingspan ratio also makes me wonder how effective he will be as a rebounder in this league.

Olynyk seems like a great pickup in the late teens for a team that's looking for depth, not a starter that can potentially develop into franchise cornerstone.

Out of the bigs only Noel and Len fit that bill, and if it was up to me, we'd pick between those two with Porter as the consolation price.


Honestly, I have more concerns about Bennett's defense than Olynyk's. And I don't get why wingspan is STILL the go to measurement for measuring a person's length when that is not even true. His standing reach is acceptable and I think he can be passable at the position with a combination of effort & intelligence. As long as you have the prerequisite length, defense is mainly about effort. I saw nothing wrong with Olynyk's effort at Gonzaga. His defense wasn't always great, but the effort was there.

So... by focusing on his standing reach, we should ignore the fact that he was the slowest tested player at the combine?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#116 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:07 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
tontoz wrote:According for Ford the Bobcats GM is pushing hard for Zeller but is getting a lot of resistance.


Rich Cho is a numbers guy, so that doesn't surprise. I bet Cho wants Zeller/Dipo and MJ's pushing for Len and Bennett.


for the record, im officially shocked if this happens, I expected Zeller to go at 7, or 10-12.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#117 » by nuposse04 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:12 pm

IF they want to go in the route of "stretch 4 with potential" I'd actually feel safer trading back with MINN. I still think D. Williams on the right team could excel, add the 9 and we could fill in our big man gap.

I wouldn't be irate if Bennett is chosen....I'd question it...but I think I'd still cheer for him to succeed...which I kind of wonder if people actually would for a player they didn't want to be chosen. Judging by the vitriol by some....I'd guess not.

Right now I think my board goes:

Noel
Porter
Len
McLemore
Bennett

Oh and regarding that Serhidan article....wasn't he the guy that was saying the Rudy Gay trade had some legs to it? Not sure if I'm gonna believe it. I do believe Bennett is the type of guy EG would reach for. Hopefully lays down the hammer.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#118 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:12 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
jivelikenice wrote:Consiglieri, you do realize that Otto tested better than Kawhi athletically in every category save the 3/4 court sprint, right?


Zeller tested through the roof too. Sometimes athleticism shows up on the court, but not on the tests, sometimes it shows up in the tests but not on the court. The ability to apply athletic gifts to the field of play matters every bit as much as the presence of said athleticism. I saw Leonard's athleticism at San Diego State, and in the NBA. I didn't see Barnes EVER at UNC, nor Zeller's at Indiana, nor Otto's at Georgetown. Could be system, could be player. There are limits to pure numbers based analysis as well as the eye test. Again, if this were easy and as simple as plugging in numbers, or plugging in eye test interpretations, GM's would never get fired, and the draft would be cake, and not as difficult and as fraught with problems as it is.


I don't accept the premise that Zeller's athleticism didn't show up on the court. I thought it was obviously excellent long before the combine and I got that impression from watching him play.


Never saw it. Think the guy can stroke it, has great hands, and great feet. Never saw the athleticism other than the speed.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#119 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:16 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
I like how Olynyk finishes around the basket, he's incredibly crafty. What worries me about him as a prospect is his disastrous defense. I don't ever see him as a starter in this league because of that deficiency, and his terrible height to wingspan ratio also makes me wonder how effective he will be as a rebounder in this league.

Olynyk seems like a great pickup in the late teens for a team that's looking for depth, not a starter that can potentially develop into franchise cornerstone.

Out of the bigs only Noel and Len fit that bill, and if it was up to me, we'd pick between those two with Porter as the consolation price.


Honestly, I have more concerns about Bennett's defense than Olynyk's. And I don't get why wingspan is STILL the go to measurement for measuring a person's length when that is not even true. His standing reach is acceptable and I think he can be passable at the position with a combination of effort & intelligence. As long as you have the prerequisite length, defense is mainly about effort. I saw nothing wrong with Olynyk's effort at Gonzaga. His defense wasn't always great, but the effort was there.

So... by focusing on his standing reach, we should ignore the fact that he was the slowest tested player at the combine?


The fact he's the slowest player tested means as much to me as Cody Zeller being as athletic as Blake Griffin or Trevor Booker being faster than John Wall.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VIII 

Post#120 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:17 pm

queridiculo wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Glad you tacked on that EDIT. Because if he was 6'10" than as of right now his standing reach would still be only be 6'10". The kid just does not bother to actually lift his hands up and wave them around on defense. I'd be curious to see if that aspect of his game develops a bit. I have to assume it will.


I generally don't have any hope that players will develop that aspect of their game if they haven't shown the motivation to do so at this point.

Bennett's lack of motor on defense is a serious red flag, you can't win with guys like him.


Guys like him? He played 3/4's of one college season, and his coach raves about his positive attitude, willingness to work, and to fill whatever role he's asked to play in. What is a "guy like him". We don't even know what him is yet. He has less than 40% the college experience of Porter with vastly inferior coaching as well. Can we really condemn him to "[lazy no effort] guys like him," talk. Hell, he even comes thru looking solid in terms of statistical defensive evaluations.

Just making final, clear cut judgments on guys that didn't even play a full single college season is crazy to me. As usual seems like people are consistently passing over, and airbrushing the flaws of their favored prospects, and lowering the LA Confidential-esque interrogation lamp on any flaw, real or perceived, that a player they don't like has.

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