Political Roundtable - Part VI

[hands11]

I'm going to hammer this topic into the ground.

It's important that folks are educated about this issue.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/1 ... Your-Peril

Obamacare is working—believe Republican naysayers at your peril

For states that have decided to be proactive and work for the wellbeing of all their citizens and small businesses, the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare, is being implemented successfully. There will be bumps but it will be successful where politicians start supporting it as opposed to putting obstacles in its way to attempt to cause it to fail for ideological reasons.

A few weeks ago it was reported that California premiums under Obamacare would be lower than predicted. In Oregon after rates were posted insurance companies in the exchange requested or said there would be decreases in their own rates.

Today the New York Times is reporting that health plan costs for individuals in New York are decreasing by 50 percent. It is true that those that are getting employer base health insurance likely will see little change. For the entrepreneur, the stylist, the musician, the sandwich shop owner, this is a financial saving and likely lifesaving. Remember with Obamacare, health screenings are a part of every plan.

I know more then one self employed person that is going to love this. When you don't make a ton and your are self employed, getting individual insurance when you aren't a part of a group isn't very affordable. Specially if you have a pre existing condition.

I am so looking forward to catching up with a few people after they get their insurance through the exchanges and they aren't charged for their pre existing conditions.

Little acknowledged fact. A lot of the country Rs used to be Dems because the Dems are for the working people. The Rs took them over back with Reagon when he tapped into the religious side of who they are. Once this Obamacare works out, me thinks there are going to be some people changing their party affiliation back. If not, they will at least vote differently.

Dems lost a lot of these people over racial issues, womens rights, gay right and religious issues. But the Dems were always the party of the people. The Rs were the party of the fat cats. Fat cats have done well to market a message and spin a ton of information to suck those people over to their side. But eventually, the chickens come home to roost. Thats what we are about to see happen.

Everyone is lightening up about the gays.
Racism is getting less all the time and demographics are changing.
People aren't into the organized religion as much as they were. This new Pope might help that though.

Rs best chance to getting a foot back in the game is going to be beating Hillary if she runs. But that's going to be a uphill battle if women decide it time for a women president.

Funny. I just had a flash back to Reagan with Dems in the house. He would say what he wanted them to legislate and if they didn't do x, y and z, he would veto it. And somehow that was ok. The Dems were supposed to compromise and get something to him he would sign. He was president and if the house created legislation that wouldn't pass, he would veto it and they blamed the house. Why is that not the case when we have Dem president. Why is every debt ceiling getting raised now a chance to blow up the world ?

Even if you are a R, you have to admit, your party is pretty belligerent and self destructive. They aren't very graceful losers.

[hands11]

In order to become a doctor in the US, you have to go to school for eight years and pass a very difficult test. This is more than is required in other countries, and the result is that the supply of health care services is restricted compared to the rest of the world.

This restriction prevents the marginal cost of health care provision from matching up with the marginal demand for it. The gap between what we are willing to pay on the margin and what it costs to provide creates monopoly profit, or, to keep it from getting confused with what people normally think of as "profit," monopoly "rents." Under perfect competition monopoly rents get competed away. If they're not, the total amount of that rent is available to lobby the government. In the US, this is a butt ton of money.

When monopoly rents exist because of the artificial restriction of supply (in this case by doctors colluding to drive up the costs of entry into the market), there is an opportunity for buyers to collude, form a single buying entity, and negotiate to effectively split the monopoly rents in some fashion. This is what Obamacare does, and this is what the butt ton of lobbying money is arrayed against.

Republicans are essentially representing the views of doctors and their privilege to keep charging prices much higher than costs, against patients who are trying to negotiate lower prices for the same services.

There are other market failures going on here, like the tendency for young people to not purchase health care, and then when they get in a car accident the rest of us have to pay for their care. But that's not why prices are so high in the US. The main cause of high prices in our health care system is restricted supply.

I hope Obamacare wins because it has some good solutions to the other problems we have. But right now the doctors are, and have been, politically organized for decades, while the patients who would benefit from Obamacare don't yet exist. It's an extremely lopsided political situation. If Obama manages to hold out it will be an amazing victory.

Nice post. Lots of truth there. I remember reviewing this situation back in the 70s. Doctors ran it all and set up this failed system. They even self governed themselves so when doctor screwed up, of course they got a pass. Gotta protect your own. Just a good ol boys club.

We need a more tiered system. Many more walk in facilities. Much more access. More like four eyes. You can get glasses just about anywhere. Seeing a medical organization with an RN or a NP with a doctor over seeing them should be much more widely available.

And a much wider variety of services. Not all just treating problem but preventing them.

People would be healthier and happier. And ounce of prevention isn't as profitable as a heart transplant though. And that is why they have fought the change.

This is going to be a great change in our society. The little guy and the middle class are about to make a come back.

10 things about health insurance exchanges.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/10-things- ... =20345355#

[W. Unseld]

http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2013/09/2 ... s-by-race/
GREENVILLE, N.C. (AP) — A man who shot four people near a Greenville Wal-Mart in June picked out his victims because they were white, according to several indictments handed down against him.
Faust, who is black, picked out his victims based on their race, according to the indictments. The documents didn’t specify why Faust wanted to shoot white people, and police have not talked about why he picked out his targets.
Police said Faust’s first victim on June 21 was an insurance adjustor in the parking lot of a law firm. He then crossed a five-lane highway and shot three more people in the parking lot of a Wal-Mart, investigators said.

Race relations in America need some serious work. It's odd, politically I think it's worse now than it was 15-20 years ago but culturally everything seems far more integrated than it did 20 years ago.

[barelyawake]

Race relations are better than they have ever been. The reason people who listen to endless hours of "conservative" radio and television think race relations are bad is because the hosts of those shows have a vested interest in exaggerating the racial rift (to blame Obama for it); fanning the flames of racism (called the Southern strategy) and painting Obama as "other" (by playing on certain groups of peoples' inherent racism). When Limbaugh makes continual racist jokes, there is a reason. When fans of his excuse his antics, they are endorsing not only the speech, but the coded implications of that speech. When the tea party spokespeople say that Obama doesn't understand or hates America, they mean he is black so can't relate to white people in Nebraska. When Glenn Beck says Obama hates all white people, and there is no backlash from the party against his statements, that is an endorsement.

In short, when people say certain people hate Obama just because he is black, they are right. But beyond that, many people have a vested interest in throwing gas on that fire. Does this mean ALL the people who disagree with Obama are racists? Of course not. It does mean that those who don't admit the racist element of the opposition (and publicly denounce that element) are passively endorsing it merely because it helps their cause.

Edit to add:
Our prison system is also a racism creating engine (which is ever growing), as is the inherent racism in our economic policies. But, more children are born colorblind to race than ever in the history of this nation.

[W. Unseld]

Agree that it certainly seems that most of the younger generation seems totally obvlivious to race as an issue (in a good way), but you do have a knack for putting sole blame on one side of the political equation--and I believe that there are more than two sides and 1/2 the problem w/the country is most people are party firsters and even those that aren't inadvertantly pigeonhole issues into conservative or liberal when they don't necessarily fit that perfectly--race is a good example since it existed well prior to the dawn of the modern political party.

I couldn't agree with you more on the prison system, I believe it was you who posted earlier on many of the systemic issues with it. It's a separate topic but i)way too much is illegal (I promise you (the reader not you specifically) don't know everything that is illegal and would be surprised by what is, ii)you would be shocked by how much jail time is carried by how many offenses (Virginia readers need to be especially weary of this) and iii)there seems to be almost nothing in the way of true reform.

[W. Unseld]

Wizardspride, time will tell on the Affordable Care Act, and I do look at both talkingpointsmemo and dailykos to get more than one side of the issue but I wouldn't rely solely on those sources. I have found that by looking at sources I completely disagree with and by looking at the foreign press I see things that each side is trying to cover in their own literature. There are a zillion examples out there and since it will be good for some people and bad for some as well as good for some states and bad for some it's very easy for each side to spin things their way. Time will tell, in the meantime it's easy to spin this thing b/c it effects different states and different people differently.

I will surrender the debate b/c I don't have the hours to devote to it and it's going to be one of those things that each of us will be able to find whatever we need on the internet to support our argument. The carved out congressional exemption isn't a good sign and I know it's not a total exemption but what it is and what it isn't requires Hands11 level typing quickness that I don't have.

[barelyawake]

Wes, nice post. I'm not trying to pigeonhole race as an issue. I'm saying that the watchers of Fox News would certainly think there is a much larger problem with race than actually exists. I am saying that all conservative news sources are pushing that theme for a reason. Is race baiting a problem on the left? Certainly. But, most people on the left think Al Sharpton is a joke. They aren't expecting their unbiased, fair and balanced news to come from Sharpton. Hell, I think most on the left wish he were off MSNBC because of his inability to grasp (much less express) complex political concepts. And I love Cenk, whom he replaced. If the goal is to merely put a black face on the news, I can give you a phone book full of brilliant black folk to replace him.

There is a concerted effort (especially post-Trayvon -- which became an issue only because the right wing hosts decided to back a wife beater, lunatic, rageaholic as a means to attack the President) to push the idea that blacks are killers and thugs in right wing news. My comments are about the news, and the impression the viewers of said news come away with, not about Republicans in general. I am saying the very places people gather news are now employing the Southern strategy.

And yeah, on our prison system, I think everyone here has come to the same conclusion. I actually like the times when we all agree.

[W. Unseld]

I can't bring myself to trudge back through the whole Trayvon thing but I can't bring myself not to make the following points:
1)In this case the President inserted himself into the story a bit and perhaps inadvertently steered it towards a racial path with his "If I had a son he would look like Trayvon" comment. Say what you will about the intention of the comment but it was totally unecessary and did not help matters.
2)The news insisted on portraying Zimmerman as a priviliged "white" guy even after it was determined that he was part hispanic, part white and part black.
3)There have been multiple shootings since where the roles were reversed that have not recieved 1/1000th the media attention. No clue why but that's been my perception.
End Trayvon discussion (I hope).
I think all political media are quick to point to race in one way or another, you gave Fox and MSNBC examples and I don't disagree with either. What I find interesting is that more and more movies and shows aimed at younger viewers seem to be totally integrated and color blind whereas older viewers still seem to have race as an issue. The politics are ugly and messy but if the culture moves on maybe the politics will as well.

[Wizardspride]

Wizardspride, time will tell on the Affordable Care Act, and I do look at both talkingpointsmemo and dailykos to get more than one side of the issue but I wouldn't rely solely on those sources. I have found that by looking at sources I completely disagree with and by looking at the foreign press I see things that each side is trying to cover in their own literature. There are a zillion examples out there and since it will be good for some people and bad for some as well as good for some states and bad for some it's very easy for each side to spin things their way. Time will tell, in the meantime it's easy to spin this thing b/c it effects different states and different people differently.

I will surrender the debate b/c I don't have the hours to devote to it and it's going to be one of those things that each of us will be able to find whatever we need on the internet to support our argument. The carved out congressional exemption isn't a good sign and I know it's not a total exemption but what it is and what it isn't requires Hands11 level typing quickness that I don't have.

I hear what you're saying and I do look at other sources...particularly the WSJ and Forbes.

I just happen to reject their "analysis".

[hands11]

Regarding Obamacare.

Some things to consider when who delivers trustworthy information.

Saying Obamacare is killing jobs. How ? The employer mandate hasn't even been implemented yet and it won't for another year. Also, we are talking companies with 50 people. That a decent sized company and most of them already provide healthcare coverage.

Now here are few things I find really funny. Ted Cruz reading Green Eggs and Ham. Then he wrapped it up by saying, but we did try it, and we don't like it. No Ted. We have not tried it. Its not in effect yet.

This is what drive me bat sht because its the worst kind of spin and I see it all the time from the Rs side. Its not a even spin, it outright lying about things that are obvious facts. Baunher and Mitch McConnell do it every time they open their mouth. I honestly can't ever remember hearing a truthful word from either of them but I listen anyway just to have that jaw drop moment listing to them speak in half sentences to make it sound like they are actually saying something meaningful and fact based. It really is a talent. But it takes an amazing lack of soul to do what they do, so I do listen because I am simply amazed they can do it. But I shouldn't be. They are just actors and actors can act like anything is real.

Now here what even crazier. Ted Cruz. 20 hrs of talking and telling people not to vote for cloture for this bill he walked the congress into writing and passing.

On Sunday he made clear that he opposed cutting off debate — called cloture — unless the majority leader, Harry Reid, agreed that 60 votes be required to strip the bill of language that would gut the health care law. On “Fox News Sunday,” Mr. Cruz, a freshman from Texas, declared his opposition to “any vote for cloture, any vote to allow Harry Reid to add funding for Obamacare with just a 51-vote threshold.”

“A vote for cloture is a vote for Obamacare,” Mr. Cruz said.

Then he went ahead voted yes to bring the bill to the floor for a vote

Look, I get the legitimate views that are labeled R idea. I even like some of them. Hell, Obamacare is one of them. But be objective. The Rs party as a body politics is more about political theater then governing politics. The people they allow a soap box are just actors but they aren't even believable. It's worse than Reagan who was actually an actor. Sarah Palin. 999. Ted Cruz. They are just in it for the fame, selling books, getting speakers fees, etc. They aren't interested in anything except making money for themselves. Its actually very twisted and sick that these people are allowed to get away with what they do and how they have taken over the R party. Man I hope the Rs gets past this Rush Limbaughism snake oil salesman phase. He is the crown jew of frauds. Just there spewing whatever he can to make a dime, with half of his drug induced brain tied behind his back.

Sorry for the rant if you are an R, but it really does frustrate me. I really do support some legitimate R ideas and I want them to be a legit party again. I also hope we develop a system that allows for there to be a sustainable 3rd party. Probably going to take huge voting structural change for that to happen though.

[dobrojim]

not really news as it's pretty stale but you can file this under you just can't make this stuff up

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/09/26/opponents-fugitive-slave-act-claim-highlighted-by-obama/

Indeed, he wasn’t. The man who charged Mr. Obama with creating a health-care system akin to slavery was Bill O’Brien, a representative in New Hampshire’s state legislature and former speaker of the House. In August, Mr. O’Brien spoke at an Americans for Prosperity rally in New Hampshire and likened the Affordable Care Act to an 1850 pro-slavery federal law.

“What is Obamacare?” Mr. O’Brien said his remarks. “It is a law as destructive to personal and individual liberty as the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 that allowed slave owners to come to New Hampshire and seize African Americans and use the federal courts to take them back to federal … to slave states.”

Really? Hyperbole much?

[hands11]

At this point its time to label the current Republicans Party what it has become in American.

Its a terrorist organization.

Sorry if that is harsh but think about the similarities in how they operate. They want to ignore the law and take us all hostage unless we concede to their demands.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/politics ... t-demands#

So unless we allow them to implement the agenda they ran on last election and lost with, they bomb everything into a million pieces.

In exchange for a one-year increase of the debt limit, Republicans want Obamacare to be postponed by one year, increased military spending, expanded offshore drilling, the go-ahead for the environmentally disastrous Keystone pipeline and tax reform, Paul-Ryan style. They want a policy to reduce regulations on energy that “Includes pretty much every jobs bill we have passed this year and last Congress.”

---

And they want to move the www.consumerfinance.gov/ Consumer Financial Protection Bureau into the budget so they can kill it by unfunding it. Man, the Dems really did that one right by having this funded via the federal reserve.

This one alone should show people what puppets they are and who they represent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... _blog.html

Under the Dodd-Frank law, the CFPB gets its money from transfers from the Federal Reserve System, up to specific caps set by the law. The Fed can’t turn down requests under that cap.

Hope Obama has a Hostage Crisis team at his side through the next weeks and mouth. Need to also get a SWAT team called up.

[nate33]

At this point its time to label the current Republicans Party what it has become in American.

Its a terrorist organization.

[Wizardspride]

At this point its time to label the current Republicans Party what it has become in American.

Its a terrorist organization.

Nate, have you seen what these guys are asking for in order to raise the debt ceiling?


Basically, these guys are throwing tantrums like a 4 year old. Give me everything I want or I'll burn the house down.

[JWizmentality]

Normally, I'm against using inflammatory language like that but hands makes a damn good point. No they are not an terrorist org, but they sure do operate like one.

[hands11]

And in the middle of all the crazy, there is some really good news.

Security Council OKs Syria resolution, warns of consequences
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/27/world/mea ... ?hpt=hp_t1

United Nations (CNN) -- The U.N. Security Council, capping a dramatic month of diplomacy, voted unanimously late Friday to require Syria to eliminate its arsenal of chemical weapons -- or face consequences.

The U.N. resolution was based on a deal struck this month between the United States and Russia.

If the resolution succeeds, the world "will have eliminated one of the largest chemical weapon arsenals on Earth, eliminating it from one of the most volatile places on Earth," Kerry said.

Good Story 2

Obama Speaks to President of Iran in First Talk Since 1979

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/ ... 6S20130928
Obama has said for years he was open to direct contact with Iran while also stressing that all options - including military strikes - were on the table to prevent Iran building a nuclear bomb.

Speaking to reporters, Obama said he and Rouhani had directed their teams to work quickly toward an agreement on Iran's nuclear program. He said this was a unique opportunity to make progress with Tehran over an issue that has isolated it from the West.

Rouhani, in his Twitter account, said that in the conversation he told Obama "Have a Nice Day!" and Obama responded with "Thank you. Khodahafez (goodbye)."

--
Keep in mind, Obama along with being open to talking to them when he took office, also cranked up sanctions on them at the same time. Man, I bet the chicken hawks, military industrial complex, and the war funding bankers are pissed.

Good Story 3

5 Reasons California Went From A $42 Billion Deficit To A Surplus

http://www.nationalmemo.com/the-5-best- ... esurgence/

That's right. California. The 7th largest economy in the world under leadership from Gov D-Jerry Brown has turned its deficits into surplus. How ? Cutting spending and raising taxes.

-they took redistricting out of the hands of the politicians
-Reinstating Majority Rule On The Budget
-Online Voter Registration. Democrats have supermajority in both state houses
-Asked Voters To Raise Taxes

Now they aren't out of the woods entirely yet, but that they have made good progress.


Now back to the government shutdown. Which honestly, at this point, I hope it happens. Better to let the TPs blow off their steam losing over something like this instead of the debt ceiling. But none of this would be happening if not for the gerrymandering they did.

[Wizardspride]

Senator Bashes House Republicans: ‘They Hate Government. They Don’t Want Government To Work.’

Sen. Angus King (I-ME) tore into House Republicans on Saturday for roadblocking passage of government funding, saying that “they hate the government,” and are “holding the entire United States hostage” because they “don’t believe government can or should work.”

Speaking on MSNBC’s Up With Steve Kornacki, King also trashed the so-called ‘Hastert Rule,’ an informal agreement by Republicans including House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) not to bring a bill up for a vote unless it can win the majority of the Republican caucus:

KING: If [Bohener] brought the continuing resolution that we sent him yesterday… chances are it would pass. It would get most of the Democratic votes and enough Republican votes to achieve a majority, but they’ve got this rule that if they can’t have a unified caucus then nothing comes to the floor. That’s one of the things I think people should realize: Out of 535 people in Congress, this is like 120 or so that are — you know, it’s the tail wagging the dog.

The other thing that I think that’s important, and it didn’t come up in your earlier discussion, is there is a pernicious inner logic to what these characters are doing. They hate government. They don’t want government to work. They don’t believe government can or should work. Crashing the economy, crashing the government, is a kind of weird success and it’s very hard to reach agreement with people who don’t share a kind of basic appreciation of the institution. This is dangerous. We’ve never been here before.

[penbeast0]

Hands, your link on California's economy led to an article on Syria with no links there to anything about California. You might want to double check it because it does sound interesting.

And anyone who has ever balanced a checkbook knows that the way to get out of debt is to spend less and/or make more; you can make more by raising taxes at a risk of slowing the economy or by growing the economy but neither does any good when you spend like a teenage princess at the mall with her mom's credit card like our federal government.

[hands11]

Hands, your link on California's economy led to an article on Syria with no links there to anything about California. You might want to double check it because it does sound interesting.

And anyone who has ever balanced a checkbook knows that the way to get out of debt is to spend less and/or make more; you can make more by raising taxes at a risk of slowing the economy or by growing the economy but neither does any good when you spend like a teenage princess at the mall with her mom's credit card like our federal government.

Opps. I fixed it. But I'm sure you did your own internet search and found other articles on it. Sure anything like "California budget surplus" would yield articles.

"And anyone who has ever balanced a checkbook knows that the way to get out of debt is to spend less and/or make more"

The basics of that are clearly fact. But it more complicated then that when you are talking about the US economy connected to a work economy. There are lots of moving pieces. And sometimes the way to make more money is to do a little debt spending. At it simplest, someone might need to buy a car to travel farther to a better paying job. You buy a new printer that works faster to lower your company overhead. You know, investment.

As for right now though, the deficit has been going down.

The US Federal Deficit Continues to Shrink
http://truth-out.org/news/item/18835-th ... -to-shrink

The federal budget deficit has been plummeting in size over the last few years; however, judging from polls, most Americans do not know that – indeed, their concern over the deficit has grown even as the annual deficit has shrunk significantly. And it continues to do so: the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated yesterday that the deficit for the first eleven months of this fiscal year fell $400 billion from the comparable period last year.



The reason the people don't know things are getting better is because The Republican Party does a great joke of lying. Then lying some more. And they keep the government in constant crisis so people don't get to hear the actually good news because it is hard to get out the good news when you shutting down the government and threatening to blow up the economy. But Rs know that. Thats why they do what they do. Because they see it works.

But it will only work if Dems let them get away with it. Obama had to put up with it his first term because the ACA would take a while to phase in. Specially considering he had to save America from the financial melt down he walked into. And then the second one the Rs manufactured. But he ran on his plan for the ACA, taxes, international affairs, etc and he won.

No way he lets them get away with them try to take America hostage again. If the government shuts down. its on the Rs. They will pay the price for it. Their is nothing to negotiate. Specially given the way the R have approached this. Hey, if you want me to do you a favor, try being nice. Its more likely to happen. Try to force me to do something when I don't have to. Then you can kiss my rss.

Dems don't need to do anything. They passed a clean bill from the Senate. That too also funds the military. It just so happens to fund everything else as well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fed ... -shutdown/
In 1996, the White House budget office estimated that the shutdowns during that fiscal year cost $1.4 billion, according to a recent report from the Congressional Research Service. That amounts to roughly $2.1 billion in today’s dollars.

The deficit is falling fast. Can Washington accept victory?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... t-victory/

That's kind of where things are.

[noworriesinmd]

Don't want to get into any argument about left/right, but I don't like how politicians on both sides "twist" facts.

Hands, your statement about that the deficit is going down is a strawman.

Pretend 10 year period.
My income never goes up during this period and I make $50,000..however my lifestyle is at $60,000
Year 1-9, I rack up 90,000 in CC debt.
In year 10, I cut my spending...and proclaim victory because instead of going into debt at the rate of 10,000 per year...I'm doing it at a rate of 8,000 (58,000 year). You're still in bad shape and it''s nothing to brag at.

PLUS, you still have to pay back another 98,000 in debt....which at 58,000 per year is looking impossible.

Our warped sense of deficit reduction is spending "less", but still spending above our means vs paying off current and past debts. How we get there can be debated...but I consider the above required progress but FAR from victory.