Political Roundtable - Part VI

[dandridge 10]

Tea Partiers are unmistakably racist. It is only thinly disguised and anyone who is fooled by it doesn't want to see it.

I'm not a supporter of the Tea Partiers, but please explain why they are unmistakably racist?

[Zonkerbl]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=examples+of+tea+party+racism

[pancakes3]

Chicken/Egg with the racism but I guess that's picking nits. The party isn't racist but it is pandering to racists to gain their votes and hides it under rhetoric of economic ideals. It does so by targeting issues under the guise of money but the impact of the decisions fall by "happenstance" on particular races. It's really just a game of political judo where stances flow and ebb and currently the "Republican" party or "Tea" party is looking for votes amongst racist, or at least ignorant constituents.

Long story short, even if the Tea Party isn't actively racist, it's looking for votes amongst the racist and has their intentions in mind.

[W. Unseld]

Chicken/Egg with the racism but I guess that's picking nits. The party isn't racist but it is pandering to racists to gain their votes and hides it under rhetoric of economic ideals. It does so by targeting issues under the guise of money but the impact of the decisions fall by "happenstance" on particular races. It's really just a game of political judo where stances flow and ebb and currently the "Republican" party or "Tea" party is looking for votes amongst racist, or at least ignorant constituents.

Long story short, even if the Tea Party isn't actively racist, it's looking for votes amongst the racist and has their intentions in mind.

People who think they are over taxed and have serious concerns about debt are secret racists? The republicans are out there actively courting the "racism" vote? There are racist republicans. There are racist democrats, the most recently serving KKK member was a senate democrat and that was within the past few years. I don't agree with tea party strategy, in Virginia I think debt worry makes little sense at the state level but at the national level, 17 trillion is very high, but for unfunded liabilities the lowest estimate I've seen is 80 trillion and the vast majority are over 100 trillion. I'm sorry, but I don't see that turning out well. I'm sure there are racists in the tea party, I'm sure there are racists in the republican party and I'm sure there are racists in the democrat party. I don't buy that all or even the vast majority of them are racists who for some weird reason decided to hide behind being opposed to debt and spending.

What political opposition to your (the readers) ideas is out there where the perpetrators of it aren't evil or racist or idiots? It's just too easy, the bad exists but so does the misguided and so does the occasional time where our own opinions were wrong or both sides of the equation were wrong (recall that I think we are stymied by only having 2 parties and seeing everything in only 2 sides).

[barelyawake]

What opposition isn't racist? You and most (a better than average amount) of the conservative posters here (except Indy who is obviously racist, sexist, classist and hates baby pandas). But, you don't use phrases that are obviously bathed in racism like many of the people who label themselves tea party.

[dandridge 10]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=examples+of+tea+party+racism

Most of the posts about the Tea Partiers either come from liberal papers or organizations or just show racists who support them. That doesn't mean that the Tea Parties panders to them or are racist themselves. It appears that racists seem to gravitate towards the Tea Partiers agenda in terms of reduced government spending, immigration control etc. I don't think you can then make the jump that just because racists gravitate toward more conservatism, that the tea partiers are pandering to them or that they are racists themselves.

Maybe there is concrete evidence that the Tea Partiers specifically target racists. Based on what I read (and I have to admit I have not spend hours looking at this), I have not seen that yet. I have no doubt that the Tea Partiers have targeted white upper class voters in the last two elections though. I would not call that racist though...its commonsense. If I was them, I would do the same thing. Why waste their time and money on black voters when it was clear that they were overwhelmingly going to vote for Obama and why waste their time on poor voters when it is likely that their agenda is not going to appeal to them.

I don't know...I guess I just don't like the word racism thrown around so loosely. I am open to changing my mind on this...I just would like to see some evidence from a non-bias source that the Tea Partiers have specifically targeted racist. I haven't seen it yet.

[pancakes3]

People who think they are over taxed and have serious concerns about debt are secret racists?

...

(recall that I think we are stymied by only having 2 parties and seeing everything in only 2 sides).

No. I'm saying that even if the tea party started out as an economic movement, the current incarnation is not. Along the way, in order to gain momentum, the party has started pandering to voters that they view as "get-able". In doing so, the party has picked up a lot of racists.

I'm not saying the pillars of the Tea Party is rooted in racism. I'm saying that in a grab for support and votes, more racists than not are claiming the tea party as their party of choice. The claims of Obama being a foreign national, distrust of muslims, and other forms of racial insensitivity originate from Republicans, if not the Tea Party outright.

I agree with the libertarian ideals of the group but I cannot subscribe to the party. With every passing day I feel like it's easier to identify as a conservative Democrat than a liberal Republican.

[Nivek]

When I see a Tea Partier standing in front of the White House with a sign that reads, "Kenyan Go Home" I'm supposed to somehow interpret that as advocating for lower taxes and reducing the federal deficit?

When I see a Tea Partier sign that reads "Obamanomics Monkey See Monkey Spend," how can I possibly miss the racist connotation?

How is a sign reading "Obama Half-Breed Muslim" not racist?

I'm obviously not saying that every person in the Tea Party is racist. But there's a strong current of racism running through those waters.

[W. Unseld]

Barely--I'm a limited libertarian, quasi-independent, doomed to have conservatives call me liberal and liberals call me conservative. I'm also a scum sucking attorney that frequently has to argue one side of an issue in one case and another side in another case.

pancakes--that's a better explanation but still seems to be reading into the hearts and minds of a lot of strangers based on the coverage of events but that stands up better than my original understanding of your posts.

Nivek--These crowds do have racists but they also have plants. John Dingell's office to name one of many was specifically busted paying a plant and there are numerous other examples. Labeling the other side as a bunch of racists I still maintain is i)too easy and ii)a good way not to debate the actual issue. For example, many of the people who oppose the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare have been dubbed racist, even though many of these same people strongly opposed it when it proposed by a white southern male in the 90's (Clinton).

I'm not a member of the Tea Party, I'm not saying they don't have racists, my voting record proves that I'm about as politically consistent as the Redskins secondary but all of everyone's political opponents aren't racist, all of everyone's political opponents aren't evil that's too easy and it allows everyone not to debate the actual issue or to try add points to the actual substance of the debate by adding "and oh by the way the other side just happens to be ignorant, racist bigots." The current incarnation of the tea party gives plenty of substantive reasons to attack without painting everyone with the same brush and dehumanizing them. If you don't think it's dehumanizing, ask yourself how much you care about someone you don't even know once you've decided that they and all of their friends are racist. It's probably easier to recover from an accusation of being called a child molester b/c at least then you would have a specific instance of time and place that could be proved or disproved. This is akin to the old catholic church "sin in thought" where they just knew what you were thinking at all times.

There is a flip side, some conservatives believe everyone is secretly communist and/or are mooches that don't want to work etc., that's no better.

*I apologize for the hands-like length of my post but I was responding to 3 different people and managed to do it w/o writing there separate posts.

[W. Unseld]

Okay, I'm cheating, 2nd post in a row. As usual the Onion has this covered, you'll likely hate the first part of the article and love the second:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-re ... ama,34074/

[hands11]

So we are dead locked in a "I know you are but what am I" arrow throwing contest between the D and Rs in the house.

Your for shutting it down. No you are.
We are fair. No we are fair.
We have compromised. No, we are the real compromiser.
They want my way or the highway. Nope. You are doing that.

I think it is clear to anyone who understands the dynamics of what is going on and how we got here that one side is lying through their teeth and being childish. I'm just waiting for them to start mimicking the Dems by repeating what they say in a silly voice right after they say it.

So how about this.

Put the clean CR on the floor. Dems can't pass it by themselves. So have a vote. See what happens. Let democracy work. The CR only funds the government until Nov 15th. If they can't work anything out, then the government will shut down again. No worse then were we are right now.

If not, go to binding arbitration. Let some impartial people that specialize in evaluating fact look at the facts and deliver a verdict.

I made a bet with a friend the first day of the shutdown, that this would end tomorrow. Now I'm not so sure I will win that bet.

This really is 20 plus years of BS all coming to the final stand. Anti government, tax cuts for the rich, gerrymandering, citizens united, privatize social security, anti gay, anti women, negotiations at gun point vs effective government, investment, environmental protections, bank regulations, united balanced approach.

When you consider where the TP/Rs wanted to be right now, you can understand why they are freaking out. They wanted to be ending social security and medicaid as we know it, not conceding to the ACA. They are 100 miles off course from what they dreamed of post Bush. They really thought robot Mitt was going to bet the black guy the second time around. First time was just a feel good/guilt vote for the black guy. That's what they would tell you if you know one of them. At least that is what I have heard from their mouths.

They are really having a mental melt down. What I know wonder is, how far will they go with this and what would make them change. Could they really stay with their position until next midterms ?

[hands11]

Okay, I'm cheating, 2nd post in a row. As usual the Onion has this covered, you'll likely hate the first part of the article and love the second:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-re ... ama,34074/

That's funny. Well kind of. If it wasn't real it would be funnier.

But seriously. How important is one mans job ? He can bring the vote to the floor if he wants. Will he lose him speakership over it. Maybe. MLK lost his life to be on the right side of an morally correct issue.

The man is a selfish coward.

[dandridge 10]

When I see a Tea Partier standing in front of the White House with a sign that reads, "Kenyan Go Home" I'm supposed to somehow interpret that as advocating for lower taxes and reducing the federal deficit?

When I see a Tea Partier sign that reads "Obamanomics Monkey See Monkey Spend," how can I possibly miss the racist connotation?

How is a sign reading "Obama Half-Breed Muslim" not racist?

I'm obviously not saying that every person in the Tea Party is racist. But there's a strong current of racism running through those waters.

Nivek, did you see Congressman or woman, or their staff, holding these signs or people that support the Tea Partiers hold these signs? To me, that would be a big difference. I can probably find some Democrats that have held up racist signs too...doesn't mean that the Democrat Congressmen or women are racist.

[Nivek]

dandridge -- My assumption was that the people holding the signs had racist beliefs/attitudes. I don't assume that every member of the Tea Party caucus is racist, but I have seen enough of them play to those racist beliefs in their supporters to make me wonder if there's a functional difference.

[Zonkerbl]

The whole birther thing convinced me the whole movement is fundamentally racist, at it's core. They could not have undermined their credibility more if they had burned a big cross in front of the White House. Everything else is just cooberation of the evidence.

[hands11]

On a lighter note.

Interactive electoral map system

http://www.270towin.com/

Kind of fascinating. Its goes all the way back to the countries beginning. Once you select a year, then you can use the up and down keys on your key board and flip through time and watch the country grow. Watch the country flip from all one color to another and then try to remember what the parties were at the time and what was going on. There is a little summary of top issues of the time at the bottom.

For example, when Reagan won almost the entire country, I found it interesting to see George and West Virginia as two of the few states he didn't win.

And easy to forget it was only 1960 when we added AK and HA

1860 to 1864, watch the south turn gray due to secession

1928 to 1932, watch the entire country flip from red to blue

1972 Nixon has 520 to McGovern 17. When you think of Nixon, do you think of that ?

You can also see how state gained and lost electorial seats over time. 1960 - Florida and VA where worth about the same and CA and PA where both at 32. In 2012 CA is 55 and PA only 22. FL is 29 and VA only 13

in 1916, PA at 38 was the 2nd most important state, 2nd only t0 NY at 45

Interesting stuff

[W. Unseld]

The whole birther thing convinced me the whole movement is fundamentally racist, at it's core. They could not have undermined their credibility more if they had burned a big cross in front of the White House. Everything else is just cooberation of the evidence.

It seems you have the judgment & the jury, there's only one thing left.

[hands11]

Interesting politicing.

Rs like Michelle Bachmann shows up at the WWII memorial for a photo shoot saying how could the Ds barricade the memorial. Then the Rs raised money to keep it open.

So now they are rolling out one bill at a time to open things like parks, etc., and making the Dems vote against them. Pretty slimy, but politically effective if you want to confuse the issue to people who aren't tuned into the details of what going on and how we got here.

So instead of just funding the government so all these things are open, they are trying to do it a piece at a time so they can fund just the things they want to fund.

I have to give them credit. That's an interesting pivot to change the narrative and put the Dems on their heals. If this was the plan all along, I have to give them more credit then I was before. Now lets see if they get away with it.

And before we know it, we are going to bleed into the debt limit. I think their plan there is to force Obama to do it on his own and then club him over that as well. In all that noise, might they try a grand bargain and get more then they could otherwise? Or will the Dems stand strong because they can't allow this strategy to succeed because if they do, where does that leave how we do things moving forward for future congresses and presidents.

Lots in all of this is the fact that the CR is funded at Paul Ryan levels. Something they ran on national and lost over. They really are masters of spin.

I thought this would only last a few day. I now think this could get really ugly before we get through this.

[montestewart]

Interesting politicing.

Rs like Michelle Bachmann shows up at the WWII memorial for a photo shoot saying how could the Ds barricade the memorial. Then the Rs raised money to keep it open.

So now they are rolling out one bill at a time to open things like parks, etc., and making the Dems vote against them. Pretty slimy, but politically effective if you want to confuse the issue to people who aren't tuned into the details of what going on and how we got here.

So instead of just funding the government so all these things are open, they are trying to do it a piece at a time so they can fund just the things they want to fund.

I have to give them credit. That's an interesting pivot to change the narrative and put the Dems on their heals. If this was the plan all along, I have to give them more credit then I was before. Now lets see if they get away with it.

And before we know it, we are going to bleed into the debt limit. I think their plan there is to force Obama to do it on his own and then club him over that as well. In all that noise, might they try a grand bargain and get more then they could otherwise? Or will the Dems stand strong because they can't allow this strategy to succeed because if they do, where does that leave how we do things moving forward for future congresses and presidents.

Lots in all of this is the fact that the CR is funded at Paul Ryan levels. Something they ran on national and lost over. They really are masters of spin.

I thought this would only last a few day. I now think this could get really ugly before we get through this.

Don't give them too much credit. My hardcore Republican father-in-law, with Fox News on in the background, accepted my narrative of the situation re Republicans shutting the government down, then trying to take credit for reopening the WWII Memorial after "the Democrats shut it down." Later I recounted that interaction to friend of mine who is (or at least used to be) a vocal Tea Party supporter, and he said nothing in contradiction.

Not all politics smells the same, and this con job is being sold to a small but easily entertained base. I think they are alienating many Republicans (including most of my family and friends who vote Republican) as well as many independents swing voters. Forget 2014, they better start worrying about 2016 if they want to reintroduce the concept of smaller government and smaller deficits without so much sophomoric melodrama.

[noworriesinmd]

In politics, I think my beliefs are the worst of both worlds. I believe in limited government, but I'm not hardcore on social issues.

It pains me reading the absolute comments about the parties.
Anyone who travels the country will realize that this country is made up of MANY extremely different parts, but we are forever bound by the idea of improving our Democracy.

Go to Cali and you'll think your in a different country...or Georgia...or Wyoming..or Maryland.

The problem is, that a lot of Americans don't travel outside their town/state/city.
People move around people who reinforce their beliefs. Cable news is the same way.

The majority of people in the Tea Party are NOT racist. - Ted Cruz, a Hispanic, is their de facto leader. Rubio - is Cuban.
The majority of Republicans are NOT racist.
The majority of Democrats are NOT racist - I guarantee I can go to the hood and find someone talking about 'kill whitey'.

It's all messaging and building a narrative that helps us reaffirm that the 'bogey man' exists.

Just because someone disagrees with the President....does not make them racist. Ask Bill Clinton how it feels to be impeached for a BJ. During Obama's first inauguration, I was on the Capital grounds, and I remember people boo'ing Bush and singing 'hit the road jack'. I was embarrassed.

Alexander Hamilton was killed by VP Burr because Hamilton might have been spreading rumors about him having an affair with his sister. Politics from day one has been horrible. See Jefferson v Adams.

The difference between now and then...speed of communication and ability to travel back to your district.

Look up Poli-optics and messaging. Everything you read/hear is carefully tested and spoon feed to you from both parties.

When people talk about R house legitimacy because of gerrymandering...people forget that Maryland forced out Bartlett (oldest R in the house) and Marella, by less than honest means. Just because it helps your cause...does not make it right. It also proves to me that people have a very short memory...this too shall pass.

People forget how the Rs and the President didn't talk to each other for two years while Ds controlled both chambers. People forget how awful the healthcare debate was and how ACA was passed. People forget that 2 yrs on his watch, his super majority never passed a budget (but now on CNBC he is screaming that congress has to do their job).

Personally, I don't take any of this personally. Everyone is playing politics. I don't believe one party is more righteous than the other.

The Presidency is won in Urban areas because these tend to be very Democratic areas with different views than a more Rural area. If you look at the US, the majority of districts are red...even though the populations are smaller. Does someone on a farm deserve as much of a say in gov't than someone who lives in a high-rise?

If we hate the system, vote everyone out....but we won't because politics is local. Every rep from MD/VA should loose their job...but we won't because we like them...and that is the fundamental problem.

Tea Party Representatives, who are keeping their campaign promises (imagine that), are representing the people in their district. And just because you or I disagree with their position does not mean that they should not have a say. Isn't that why our gov't is designed the way it is.

I just wish that instead of running to cameras to "appear to do something" (see Cruz phony filibuster), both sides just talk....instead we'll see everyone going to FOX and MSNBC to "prove" they are right.