'14 Draft Thread - Now With a Poll: VOTE OR DIE.

[Baddy Chuck]

And my reasoning for Wiggins in a tier his own. I think he has Paul George like ability. I think Parker is a Melo-lite. I wouldn't even take a 100% Melo over Paul George 1/10 times.

[skones]

I didn't see any mention of defense either, which is a big reason why he'll be a star.

It's very difficult to be considered a star on defense alone in the NBA when you play on the wing. Elite wing defenders are not stars. It wasn't until Paul George started scoring the ball when he entered the "star" and now the "superstar" discussion, and when he came out, he was MUCH further along offensively than Wiggins seems to be.

[skones]

And my reasoning for Wiggins in a tier his own. I think he has Paul George like ability. I think Parker is a Melo-lite. I wouldn't even take a 100% Melo over Paul George 1/10 times.

Parker is on another level when it comes to his basketball IQ vs. Melo, that's what potentially makes him special on that end of the floor. He can be a guy who can elevate those around him. That's an area where Melo isn't necessarily proficient in, and ultimately what's held him back from being a true superstar in this league. While they statistically profile as similar players, Parker seems to have a feel for the game that hasn't come along through the college ranks in years.

And again, what makes you think he's got Paul George like ability? Paul George was much smoother off the dribble than Wiggins has demonstrated, and was consistently given the ball to create his own looks while at Fresno State. Wiggins lack of assertiveness in this area is troubling.

[Baddy Chuck]

If you think Wiggins is just raw athleticism I'm just really not going to get into an argument over it because you're really just wrong.

Then PLEASE tell me what skills he has right now that make him such a special talent. The only thing special about Wiggins at this point IS his athleticism.

I just think you are putting way to much into him taking a backseat on a championship caliper team.

His jumpshot is fine, better then fine really. His defense is upper tier. His moves when he does put the ball on the floor are ridiculous. His off the ball movement is probably second to none in the entire NCAA. His transition game is would probably be top tier right now in the NBA. He has the willingness and ability to post up smaller players.

He's really not raw at all, in basically any aspect of the game. Just because his athleticism shines like none other doesn't mean that's all he has, but maybe that's all you're watching. Because he's taking a backseat on a championship caliper team that is beating every team they face he's putting his ability on the back burner, but if you haven't seen the skill other then athleticism you simply aren't watching.

[mattg]

I didn't see any mention of defense either, which is a big reason why he'll be a star.

It's very difficult to be considered a star on defense alone in the NBA when you play on the wing. Elite wing defenders are not stars. It wasn't until Paul George started scoring the ball when he entered the "star" and now the "superstar" discussion, and when he came out, he was MUCH further along offensively than Wiggins seems to be.

Besides the fact that George wasn't further along he was also a year older when he came out. I'll give you that George was a better shooter, but wiggins is significantly better in terms of court awareness/offensive IQ and off ball play. Handles are a wash, maybe even favors wiggins(George had no move as deadly as wiggins spin at that age, he was all straight line).

Wiggins is raw in terms of his skillset in some regards, namely his handle and shot, but there's other aspects where he is super advanced. He scores within the flow of the offense without needing plays called for him. Suburb transition player. Good defender. He definitely needs to play lower to the floor instead of so upright and could be more aggressive at times but he's young. People also project improvement considering he's playing for the best coach in college ball.

FWIW, I have Parker above wiggins, but I have those 2 as the two clear cut best guys in this draft. I think there's a decent drop off after them personally.

[skones]

If you think Wiggins is just raw athleticism I'm just really not going to get into an argument over it because you're really just wrong.

Then PLEASE tell me what skills he has right now that make him such a special talent. The only thing special about Wiggins at this point IS his athleticism.

I just think you are putting way to much into him taking a backseat on a championship caliper team.

His jumpshot is fine, better then fine really. His defense is upper tier. His moves when he does put the ball on the floor are ridiculous. His off the ball movement is probably second to none in the entire NCAA. His transition game is would probably be top tier right now in the NBA.

He's really not raw at all, in basically any aspect of the game. Just because his athleticism shines like none other doesn't mean that's all he has, but maybe that's all you're watching. Because he's taking a backseat on a championship caliper team that is beating every team they face he's putting his ability on the back burner, but if you haven't seen the skill other then athleticism you simply aren't watching.

I'd say it's you who's not really watching as you're simply making excuses for him. If he's got all these skills and he's putting them on the backburner "for the sake of the team," what kind of coach does that make Bill Self? If he's truly an elite talent, and he's got the ability to really elevate his team (as your tier ranking would suggest), wouldn't Kansas be best served to allow him to use those skills to be the best team they can be? The Duke game is a prime example. At no point did Wiggins just put the team on his back and say, "let's go," despite your seeming belief that he's got that ability.

Again, where are these ridiculous moves that you're seeing? As far as I can tell, they're simply not there. He's fast, which again, stems from his athleticism. But I broke down every made field goal in an earlier post which demonstrated his LACK of using these seemingly ridiculous moves or when he's supposedly using them, they're not proving effective in him actually scoring. You don't become a superstar by taking a backseat to those around you when you possess truly superior talent. You don't become a superstar by making a living in the transition game, moving off the ball, and shooting spot up threes. You create for yourself and those around you.

[mattg]

He's got wiggins scoring 17 a game in under 30 minutes entirely on transition/activity/off ball stuff. That's insane. Don't know why you're citing the duke game, it was close but Kansas was dictating the entire second half as Parker cooled off. Wiggins was being double teamed every time he touched the ball in the half court because duke tried to guard him with guys who were 6'2". So what does he do? Gets down in the post and forces that double to come and then moves the ball around opening things up for his teammates. But yeah, the only way to create is to penetrate and pitch right?

Aside from his absurd spin move(you won't find another 18 year old with a better one in history) he doesn't really have ridiculous moves. But they're sort of unnecessary. With his athletic profile and how economic he is with touches he literally needs one or two dribbles max to make something happen.

The second last sentence is funny. What about Kevin Durant? Last year he improved a ton creating for himself and others off the dribble, but prior to that he was almost entirely an off ball player who did most of his damage working off screens, spotting up, and in transition. There's more than one way to go about things. It's funny, people clamored for guys like Lebron, melo, etc to develop the off ball presence that wiggins is showing to be adept at because it was preventing them from winning. Now that ability is totally downplayed.

Let me guess, you also thought Anthony Davis didn't have big offensive potential because all he did was roll to the hoop and get putbacks at UK?

[Baddy Chuck]

I'd say it's you who's not really watching as you're simply making excuses for him. If he's got all these skills and he's putting them on the backburner "for the sake of the team," what kind of coach does that make Bill Self? If he's truly an elite talent, and he's got the ability to really elevate his team (as your tier ranking would suggest), wouldn't Kansas be best served to allow him to use those skills to be the best team they can be? The Duke game is a prime example. At no point did Wiggins just put the team on his back and say, "let's go," despite your seeming belief that he's got that ability.

How about when he was battling with the Duke guards the entire second half and eventually drained a step back dagger right in the face of Duke? I'd say they basically gave it to him there and said do you're thing, and he did it. And considering Kansas won that game, and every other game, I'd say Bill Self is sleeping pretty easy at night. Should we compare it to Parker's second half where he took some very ugly running layups and contested jumpers that didn't go in? He had some really Melo-like tendencies in the second half of that game. He'll get hot with his jumper, but what happens when he cools off? If you're going to criticize Wiggins on that, I think you really need to take a second look at Parker's ability to put the ball on the floor in a halfcourt set, it's really nothing special at all.

Again, where are these ridiculous moves that you're seeing? As far as I can tell, they're simply not there. He's fast, which again, stems from his athleticism. But I broke down every made field goal in an earlier post which demonstrated his LACK of using these seemingly ridiculous moves or when he's supposedly using them, they're not proving effective in him actually scoring. You don't become a superstar by taking a backseat to those around you when you possess truly superior talent. You don't become a superstar by making a living in the transition game, moving off the ball, and shooting spot up threes. You create for yourself and those around you.

His spin move off the dribble is extremely advanced. His first step is really good and you have to play him for it. His handles and jumper aren't insane, but they're good enough that you have to respect them and they likely will only get better. He has a great ability to get into the lane and his athleticism is going to help him convert most of the shots he takes when he's in there.

And sure, you broke down every field goal on paper but I'm guessing you've seen one game Wiggins has played and are basing everything you know about him off that, which is ridiculous. He's made great moves to the basket that have led to very easy shots for other players as well this season which simply wouldn't show up on your FGM stat sheet. I don't think Wiggins is taking a backseat at all on the Kansas team. He's putting his ABILITIES on the backburner, but he still is the #1 guy on (IMO) the #1 team in the nation. Since I'm guessing the only game you've watch him was the Duke game, I'll just go back to the second half where he was trying to post up the Duke guards the entire half and was calling for the ball. He's doing whatever it takes to help the team win. Playing ISO ball from the three point line isn't helping his TEAM. He has a great returning soph and two top ten talents next to him with other good role players. He's scoring 20 points a game from a wide variety of offensive moves and sets, I really don't care that it isn't all coming from ISO ball, but if you prefer Melo, be my guest.

I'm taking Wiggins #1. Nothing short of him falling into a coma would likely change my mind right now. Parker is number two, but there's still a gap there in my opinion. Parker will probably reach his peak before Wiggins does, and it's probably a lot more certain that he 100% does reach his peak, but I really don't think Parker's peak is this guaranteed super star/take us to the promise land type player that you do. Parker is probably in a tier above Randle and I'll probably go back and fix that, but I'm taking Wiggins easily over Parker.

[skones]

He's got wiggins scoring 17 a game in under 30 minutes entirely on transition/activity/off ball stuff. That's insane. Don't know why you're citing the duke game, it was close but Kansas was dictating the entire second half as Parker cooled off. Wiggins was being double teamed every time he touched the ball in the half court because duke tried to guard him with guys who were 6'2". So what does he do? Gets down in the post and forces that double to come and then moves the ball around opening things up for his teammates. But yeah, the only way to create is to penetrate and pitch right?

Aside from his absurd spin move(you won't find another 18 year old with a better one in history) he doesn't really have ridiculous moves. But they're sort of unnecessary. With his athletic profile and how economic he is with touches he literally needs one or two dribbles max to make something happen.

The second last sentence is funny. What about Kevin Durant? Last year he improved a ton creating for himself and others off the dribble, but prior to that he was almost entirely an off ball player who did most of his damage working off screens, spotting up, and in transition. There's more than one way to go about things. It's funny, people clamored for guys like Lebron, melo, etc to develop the off ball presence that wiggins is showing to be adept at because it was preventing them from winning. Now that ability is totally downplayed.

Let me guess, you also thought Anthony Davis didn't have big offensive potential because all he did was roll to the hoop and get putbacks at UK?

Where to begin.

Yes, Self has him scoring in that manner. It's a bit insane, but that's a tribute to Self's coaching style more than it is a tribute to Wiggin's skill level.

You can't possibly tell me Kansas was dictating the entire second half when it was a two point game up until there was a mere 1:33 remaining in the game. When you dictate, you open up leads and sustain them, you don't go back and forth for eighteen and a half minutes. And if it was truly Wiggins taking on those double teams and then moving the ball around, wouldn't you think he would have notched an assist at some point in that contest? I would certainly think so.

Now let's talk about where you use Kevin Durant as an example while COMPLETELY neglecting an elite skill level which Wiggins simply doesn't possess. An elite jump shot maybe? Playing on the wing at 6'10, 6'11? That could have something to do with him becoming a superstar as well. Just a thought though.The comparison is almost as funny as when you compare the way a big scores to a wing in the last sentence.

[skones]

And sure, you broke down every field goal on paper but I'm guessing you've seen one game Wiggins has played and are basing everything you know about him off that, which is ridiculous. He's made great moves to the basket that have led to very easy shots for other players as well this season which simply wouldn't show up on your FGM stat sheet. I don't think Wiggins is taking a backseat at all on the Kansas team. He's putting his ABILITIES on the backburner, but he still is the #1 guy on (IMO) the #1 team in the nation. Since I'm guessing the only game you've watch him was the Duke game, I'll just go back to the second half where he was trying to post up the Duke guards the entire half and was calling for the ball. He's doing whatever it takes to help the team win. Playing ISO ball from the three point line isn't helping his TEAM. He has a great returning soph and two top ten talents next to him with other good role players. He's scoring 20 points a game from a wide variety of offensive moves and sets, I really don't care that it isn't all coming from ISO ball, but if you prefer Melo, be my guest.

Ya caught me, the "on paper" play by plays certainly show where he spins, steps back into his jumper, shoots a spot up three, and drives in a straight line to the hoop. But you're right, I've only watched one game.

[Rockmaninoff]

I was going to mention Anthony Davis in relation to the way in which Wiggins is scoring, but Mattg beat me to it. I thought it was pretty impressive that Davis was dominant in that fashion, and I feel the same about Wiggins.

Stats wise (small sample for the 2014 freshmen) I rank them...

Wiggins
Embiid
Smart
Parker

Randle
Gordon

I'd probably put Exum after Parker. I also really like Jordan Adams and Kyle Anderson a lot, and would consider both in the lotto.

[Baddy Chuck]

Ya caught me, the "on paper" play by plays certainly show where he spins, steps back into his jumper, shoots a spot up three, and drives in a straight line to the hoop. But you're right, I've only watched one game.

True, you could've watched highlights of him scoring as well I guess because he uses his spin move and first step a lot more often then you give him credit. Just because he may miss a shot or pass the ball off doesn't mean the move wasn't there.

[mattg]

He's got wiggins scoring 17 a game in under 30 minutes entirely on transition/activity/off ball stuff. That's insane. Don't know why you're citing the duke game, it was close but Kansas was dictating the entire second half as Parker cooled off. Wiggins was being double teamed every time he touched the ball in the half court because duke tried to guard him with guys who were 6'2". So what does he do? Gets down in the post and forces that double to come and then moves the ball around opening things up for his teammates. But yeah, the only way to create is to penetrate and pitch right?

Aside from his absurd spin move(you won't find another 18 year old with a better one in history) he doesn't really have ridiculous moves. But they're sort of unnecessary. With his athletic profile and how economic he is with touches he literally needs one or two dribbles max to make something happen.

The second last sentence is funny. What about Kevin Durant? Last year he improved a ton creating for himself and others off the dribble, but prior to that he was almost entirely an off ball player who did most of his damage working off screens, spotting up, and in transition. There's more than one way to go about things. It's funny, people clamored for guys like Lebron, melo, etc to develop the off ball presence that wiggins is showing to be adept at because it was preventing them from winning. Now that ability is totally downplayed.

Let me guess, you also thought Anthony Davis didn't have big offensive potential because all he did was roll to the hoop and get putbacks at UK?

Where to begin.

Yes, Self has him scoring in that manner. It's a bit insane, but that's a tribute to Self's coaching style more than it is a tribute to Wiggin's skill level.

You can't possibly tell me Kansas was dictating the entire second half when it was a two point game up until there was a mere 1:33 remaining in the game. When you dictate, you open up leads and sustain them, you don't go back and forth for eighteen and a half minutes. And if it was truly Wiggins taking on those double teams and then moving the ball around, wouldn't you think he would have notched an assist at some point in that contest? I would certainly think so.

Now let's talk about where you use Kevin Durant as an example while COMPLETELY neglecting an elite skill level which Wiggins simply doesn't possess. An elite jump shot maybe? Playing on the wing at 6'10, 6'11? That could have something to do with him becoming a superstar as well. Just a thought though.The comparison is almost as funny as when you compare the way a big scores to a wing in the last sentence.

Yes Kansas dictated the game in the second half, playing at their pace, which is what dictating the game is. Sulaimon got aggressive and hit some late semi bail out shots for duke to keep them close when they couldn't get anything going offensively as a team.

And you obviously just don't see certain things when you watch games. Wiggins was posting up on the left side when he'd get doubled. He'd recognize where the double came from, get the ball to that man and the ball swing would be on. You are discounting how good and disciplined duke is as a team defensively. Of course they made the first rotation out to the guy who was doubled off of, but then the ball kicks around to the opposite side of the floor and there's an open shot. More than just raw asssists to creating looks for teammates. Basketball is all about manipulating the defense and making them move.

The Durant comparison is about the manner in which they score so don't read into it so much. No one thinks wiggins will be a Durant level scorer(like you said he doesn't have the J for that) but that doesn't change the fact that wiggins(like Durant) will score a ton of points off cuts/transition/activity in the nba.

As for Davis, when he was in college people said he was limited offensively because of how he was being used at UK. Played totally within the offense and didn't force anything or do anything fancy(he took 1 jumpshot he entire season). It's the exact same argument your using against wiggins right now.

[Baddy Chuck]

I was going to mention Anthony Davis in relation to the way in which Wiggins is scoring, but Mattg beat me to it. I thought it was pretty impressive that Davis was dominant in that fashion, and I feel the same about Wiggins.

I pointed out Davis and Rose earlier in this thread or another and they were just written off as "different situations".

[Rockmaninoff]

I was going to mention Anthony Davis in relation to the way in which Wiggins is scoring, but Mattg beat me to it. I thought it was pretty impressive that Davis was dominant in that fashion, and I feel the same about Wiggins.

I pointed out Davis and Rose earlier in this thread or another and they were just written off as "different situations".

Yeah, I think all of the guys you mention just play/played within the team concept in NCAA. Not to say Parker doesn't, but I think his team might be a little worse and he's compensating how he's inclined to.

I don't think there is a bust among Wiggins, Embiid, Smart, and Parker, and I have them almost evenly rated. I also think they all have very high ceilings. I think it just comes down what the team needs or what you want, in a way.

Not a big fan of Randle or Gordon, but it's early. Exum is the wildcard and might end up being the best player in the draft.

[skones]

And you obviously just don't see certain things when you watch games. Wiggins was posting up on the left side when he'd get doubled. He'd recognize where the double came from, get the ball to that man and the ball swing would be on. You are discounting how good and disciplined duke is as a team defensively. Of course they made the first rotation out to the guy who was doubled off of, but then the ball kicks around to the opposite side of the floor and there's an open shot. More than just raw asssists to creating looks for teammates. Basketball is all about manipulating the defense and making them move.

The Durant comparison is about the manner in which they score so don't read into it so much. No one thinks wiggins will be a Durant level scorer(like you said he doesn't have the J for that) but that doesn't change the fact that wiggins(like Durant) will score a ton of points off cuts/transition/activity in the nba.

As for Davis, when he was in college people said he was limited offensively because of how he was being used at UK. Played totally within the offense and didn't force anything or do anything fancy(he took 1 jumpshot he entire season). It's the exact same argument your using against wiggins right now.

For your first paragraph. Simply drawing a double team and swinging the ball isn't necessarily Wiggins creating looks for other guys, or him displaying a high basketball IQ. What you're discounting, in this situation, is Self's coaching playing into the equation here. It's Self's coaching which puts Wiggins in the situations he's able to take advantage of while also hiding his weaknesses (consistent jumpshot, ball handling). I'm not knocking Self for using him this way, what I'm saying is that he's ultimately using him in the manner he is for a reason, because at this point, those skills aren't there and he's much more raw than most would like to believe.

Whether he moves off the ball or not, there's a difference between scoring a ton of points off the ball and transition and developing into a go to scorer. Regardless of how fair the expectations placed upon Wiggins have been, he's been a huge disappointment in that regard thus far into the season. You're looking to land a superstar in this draft, and Wiggins just doesn't have a whole lot about his game right now that says, "future superstar" or "special player." What he has is potential. Could he show more this season? Sure. Will he show more? Probably. But at this juncture, he hasn't. It won't be until he shows that, that I'll put him back in a discussion for anything higher than the third overall.

Again, it's not the exact same argument regarding Wiggins v. Davis because they play two completely different positions.

[mattg]

And you obviously just don't see certain things when you watch games. Wiggins was posting up on the left side when he'd get doubled. He'd recognize where the double came from, get the ball to that man and the ball swing would be on. You are discounting how good and disciplined duke is as a team defensively. Of course they made the first rotation out to the guy who was doubled off of, but then the ball kicks around to the opposite side of the floor and there's an open shot. More than just raw asssists to creating looks for teammates. Basketball is all about manipulating the defense and making them move.

The Durant comparison is about the manner in which they score so don't read into it so much. No one thinks wiggins will be a Durant level scorer(like you said he doesn't have the J for that) but that doesn't change the fact that wiggins(like Durant) will score a ton of points off cuts/transition/activity in the nba.

As for Davis, when he was in college people said he was limited offensively because of how he was being used at UK. Played totally within the offense and didn't force anything or do anything fancy(he took 1 jumpshot he entire season). It's the exact same argument your using against wiggins right now.

For your first paragraph. Simply drawing a double team and swinging the ball isn't necessarily Wiggins creating looks for other guys, or him displaying a high basketball IQ. What you're discounting, in this situation, is Self's coaching playing into the equation here. It's Self's coaching which puts Wiggins in the situations he's able to take advantage of while also hiding his weaknesses (consistent jumpshot, ball handling). I'm not knocking Self for using him this way, what I'm saying is that he's ultimately using him in the manner he is for a reason, because at this point, those skills aren't there and he's much more raw than most would like to believe.

Whether he moves off the ball or not, there's a difference between scoring a ton of points off the ball and transition and developing into a go to scorer. Regardless of how fair the expectations placed upon Wiggins have been, he's been a huge disappointment in that regard thus far into the season. You're looking to land a superstar in this draft, and Wiggins just doesn't have a whole lot about his game right now that says, "future superstar" or "special player." What he has is potential. Could he show more this season? Sure. Will he show more? Probably. But at this juncture, he hasn't. It won't be until he shows that, that I'll put him back in a discussion for anything higher than the third overall.

Again, it's not the exact same argument regarding Wiggins v. Davis because they play two completely different positions.

Or maybe, just maybe, bill self is using wiggins the way he is because no one else on the team can produce at that insane level sans touches and it's best for the team. It's helping teach wiggins how to play a role and be apart of a team while also improving his motor. I've never argued wiggins is super skilled and I have posts from before this season began to prove it, but you're totally, utterly under rating what he is good at. The kid knows how to play basketball, he's not some raw athlete who is all tools. There's a reason he made Julius randle look ordinary head to head and why he always stands out in high level games, his awareness and IQ always leave him able to make something happen.

I don't know how you can say he's been a major disappointment so far when he's been exactly what many informed fans expected. It sounds more so like you just bought into blind hype or something. You shouldn't have expected a guy with point forward skills when that's never been his game at all.

[Baddy Chuck]

Again, it's not the exact same argument regarding Wiggins v. Davis because they play two completely different positions.

Yeah, it really is. Like Davis and Rose before him, WIggins is placed on a championship team and put certain abilities on the backburner. People didn't think Davis could score in the post, people didn't think Rose would be a good team leader, people didn't think Davis would be able to shoot from range, people didn't think Rose had enough tenacity to be a premier player etc etc etc etc. They weren't asked to do those things but if you watched you knew that each showed glimpses of high level of play in those areas, just like Wiggins is doing in Kansas. The argument being made has absolutely nothing to do with the position being played.

[skones]

Or maybe, just maybe, bill self is using wiggins the way he is because no one else on the team can produce at that insane level sans touches and it's best for the team. It's helping teach wiggins how to play a role and be apart of a team while also improving his motor. I've never argued wiggins is super skilled and I have posts from before this season began to prove it, but you're totally, utterly under rating what he is good at. The kid knows how to play basketball, he's not some raw athlete who is all tools. There's a reason he made Julius randle look ordinary head to head and why he always stands out in high level games, his awareness and IQ always leave him able to make something happen.

I don't know how you can say he's been a major disappointment so far when he's been exactly what many informed fans expected. It sounds more so like you just bought into blind hype or something. You shouldn't have expected a guy with point forward skills when that's never been his game at all.

It's not about buying into blind hype. It's about looking like a surefire number one overall pick, and he just hasn't been that. Not at all. And this is not what "many informed fans expected." They did not come into this season thinking Wiggins would have nearly 71% of his made shots created for him by his teammates. His first step is very very fast, and he's got a great spin move, but that's also the only real move he's exhibited with the ball in his hands and he's out of control with it at times. When smarter, bigger, more athletic defenders are going against Wiggins, they're going to be able to bait him into that move and create offensive fouls and turnovers. For every Anthony Davis and Derrick Rose being mentioned in this thread, there is also a Rudy Gay.

[emunney]

Rudy Gay was not as good as Wiggins at any point in his two years at UCONN.