OT: Andrew Wiggins Discussion Thread

[Randle McMurphy]

What talent, or skill, is that, exactly? His lack of skills was the first thing that stood out to me. He's extremely raw offensively. I'd say he more of an athlete than a talent, at this point. And even then he's a little overrated and too passive.

I don't need to get into the reasons why Wiggins has been considered #1. You should be able to see that plainly enough for yourself (although I believe Embiid is the more impressive prospect of the two and have thought so for a while now).

The chief thing you (and everyone else **** on him) need to realize right now is just how early in his development as a prospect he is. We're just 10 games into his freshman year. Look no further than a raw Michael Jordan at UNC and his performance as a freshman to see how little performance in these games matters when projecting prospect futures.

So basically you're saying "Wiggins has been rated #1 for a season" and "MJ was raw as a freshman". That's great, but it still doesn't explain Wiggins' poor motor and handle/passing.

What's to explain? He's raw offensively at 18 years old 10 games into his freshman year. Doesn't mean he's not going at least in the top 3 (and yes, there are obvious reasons for why).

[S.W.A.N]

Maybe not the alpha mindset some expect from a 'superstar' but I would rather see that then a low iq chucker mentality.

Maybe. I think developing better bball IQ is an easier task than developing a high motor though. I hope that the low motor is there because he's being passive and trying to be more of a team guy instead of acting like 'I'm Andrew Wiggins' but it might also be because he doesn't have that aggressive, alpha dog gene.

I didn't see todays game but unless I mistake Wiggins is the teams best wing defender, and I know he begged his coach to let him guard Parker. Which to me is equally important aspect motor.

Defensive motor highly under rated aspect of critiquing college players. Granted usually one of the harder things to gauge with all the zone that gets played but none the less important.

I still think Wiggins best two way wing in draft. Maybe more Pippen than Jordan but still....

[Reef]

Maybe not the alpha mindset some expect from a 'superstar' but I would rather see that then a low iq chucker mentality.

I still think Wiggins best two way wing in draft. Maybe more Pippen than Jordan but still....

That's exactly what I see him as - Pippen.

[Undefeated]

If he improves his body that should improve his quickness and athleticism. He could also stand to get stronger I could also see him learning to use his length better down the road. His defensive instincts in some areas are decent (blocks, steals). I still see a lot of room for improvement, the bigger question might be how good does he want to be on defense?

Yep, Jabari reads passing lanes really well triggering those coast-to-coast fast break. Good weak side help for blocks as well. I just think that because of the situation he's in at Duke where they don't have any bigs (Marshall Plumlee is a waste of height and Amile Jefferson is undersized) he has to cover a lot for Duke defensively so often he won't able to solo cover his man effectively.

[The_Hater]

Those concerns are nothing that's going to drop his draft stock past anybody but maybe Embiid and Parker, though. It's really not all that big a deal, nor is it any real indication of what his effort level will be in the NBA.

Although he likely won't, he could definitely drop down further. There still appears to be 6 players at the top of the draft that scouts really like. We don't have to look far to see players that looked like the top pick fall quite far after 1 college season and this draft is much stronger than the past couple of seasons.

[Hero]

I'm really underwhelmed by Wiggins. Considering the hype from him I expected so much more. We keep hearing excuses from people but how about some actual good games. Some breakout performances. We see them from Parker and the other top prospects.

[snomeister]

Wiggins barely tried today except for like a 2-3 minute stretch. Wouldn't take too much from this game for him.

If your claim that he wasn't trying for 37 minutes is true, that in itself provides far more information than if he played his butt off.

Some of these one-and-done guys just view college as a stop-gap, something they have to do before the big leagues. I know he says college is important and eveything, but I don't totally buy it. I feel he wants to make his mark in the NBA and that's when his talent will truly start to shine.

We've seen it with guys before, their motor questioned in college but then they look fine in the NBA. I remember DeAndre being seriously questioned for his motor. I thought he would be an excellent pick up in the late lottery and kinda wished at the time that we just kept our pick and got him. I was then shocked that he wasn't even selected in the first round. He fell real hard, and it was entirely because scouts questioned his motor and mental makeup, but he even showed stuff as a rookie in the NBA. Now I know he's got his faults and he's no franchise talent or anything, but he's still a good piece to have and he never should have fallen that far. Then the same thing happened with Drummond. I have the same feeling with Wiggins with what I got from those two guys, and I feel like scouts and GMs have now learned their lesson.

I may be wrong, Wiggins could bust for all I know. Drafting is too unpredictable, but my gut tells me he'll look really special when he's playing for an NBA team.

[The_Hater]

Some of these one-and-done guys just view college as a stop-gap, something they have to do before the big leagues. I know he says college is important and eveything, but I don't totally buy it. I feel he wants to make his mark in the NBA and that's when his talent will truly start to shine.

We've seen it with guys before, their motor questioned in college but then they look fine in the NBA.

No doubt you could be right, but with Wiggins it would be nice if we saw him turn it on for a game or at least half a game so that we can see that this higher motor actually exists wouldn't it? I haven't seen every Kansas game but I haven't seen him pull out the Turbo button even once.

[TheLastTimeLord]

Wiggins' passing is fine. Saw him make 2 very nice passes today.

[Homer Jay]

Wiggins barely tried today except for like a 2-3 minute stretch. Wouldn't take too much from this game for him.

If your claim that he wasn't trying for 37 minutes is true, that in itself provides far more information than if he played his butt off.

I wonder if expectations fuel this perception that he doesn't try hard all the time.

He is on an incredibly deep team and they beat the hoyas by 22. Seems to me that Wiggins plays within the offense and only tries to take over when necessary.

Maybe not the alpha mindset some expect from a 'superstar' but I would rather see that then a low iq chucker mentality.

Several of his shots, at least in the commentators eyes, were questionable first pass, early clock, in traffic, highly contested, and off-balance shots once the game was clearly decided. It looked like he might have been thinking he needed to "get his". I know he must have tremendous pressure on him, especially with Parker lighting it up night in and out, and the fact that they were not affecting his team's chance to win, but it was a little forced. He hasn't been doing it game in and out, for 40 mins a stretch, so I'm not worried about a Gayness Factor. Maybe some of these guys are right and he could struggle just enough to fall to us if we don't win at the lottery.

[Undefeated]

That's great, but it still doesn't explain Wiggins' poor motor and handle/passing.

Wiggins has been great on the defensive end of the floor locking down often the opponent's best scorer so he doesn't have a poor motor. You're mistaking that with aggressiveness offensively for not demanding the ball. Spencer Dinwiddie couldn't do anything against Wiggins when he switched onto him after Dinwiddie dropped buckets on the combination of Selden, Tharpe and Mason. Even today when KU went into their 1-2-2 zone defense Coach Self had Wiggins up top because he's capable of disrupting an offense shooting the gap for steals and quick on his feet to close outs making it hard for Georgetown to reverse the ball.

His ball-handling can use improvement, but it's not as bad as it is. First of all, he can do combo moves like an inside-out cross to set his defender up on ball screens then beat them off the dribble with a quick change of direction move when he has them leaning the opposite direction. And if you have poor handles you wouldn't be able to split ball screens without losing it when you throw the ball out forward. Once he works on getting his body lower and dribbling low he'll start to avoid those turnovers in traffic by pesky defenders reaching in and swiping when he exposes the ball. He had that sick thru-the-leg cross off of a change of direction before throwing a pass across his shoulder to Jamari Taylor for the dunk. He's fully capable of making off the dribble moves like that once he can get lower. He always had handles when I saw him play at Huntington. Just needs to work on keeping the dribble low and securing the ball closer to his body and he'll be crisp with his moves.

[Yosemite Dan]

I'm really underwhelmed by Wiggins. Considering the hype from him I expected so much more. We keep hearing excuses from people but how about some actual good games. Some breakout performances. We see them from Parker and the other top prospects.

If he continues to show a subdued effort like he has been showing almost every game with these underwhelming performances then he will fall out of the top 5. The one game where he had over 20 points last week was him chucking ill advised 3's where some happened to go in, that didn't show me anything because it was also the game where he had 5 turnovers. He was underwhelming again.

What the media thinks and what actually happens with team's scouts in the draft are 2 different things most times and with a draft where the top 6 players could end up being interchageable I can easily see Wiggins going even as low as #6. Who foresaw the Cavs first pick last year. How many times have we predicted drafts where the top 10 we thought would happen hardly resembled how the top 10 actually played out.

The media and the fanbase buy into the hype. Scouts don't. If all of them don't like what they are seeing from Wiggins then he will fall quickly much like Rudy Gay did. Remember how he we were "tanking" for him that one year. Consensus #1 pick in October and ended up going at #7 I beleive.

[Yosemite Dan]

Wiggins' passing is fine. Saw him make 2 very nice passes today.

A little bit of a small sample size I would think.

[snomeister]

I'm really underwhelmed by Wiggins. Considering the hype from him I expected so much more. We keep hearing excuses from people but how about some actual good games. Some breakout performances. We see them from Parker and the other top prospects.

If he continues to show a subdued effort like he has been showing almost every game with these underwhelming performances then he will fall out of the top 5. The one game where he had over 20 points last week was him chucking ill advised 3's where some happened to go in, that didn't show me anything because it was also the game where he had 5 turnovers. He was underwhelming again.

What the media thinks and what actually happens with team's scouts in the draft are 2 different things most times and with a draft where the top 6 players could end up being interchageable I can easily see Wiggins going even as low as #6. Who foresaw the Cavs first pick last year. How many times have we predicted drafts where the top 10 we thought would happen hardly resembled how the top 10 actually played out.

The media and the fanbase buy into the hype. Scouts don't. If all of them don't like what they are seeing from Wiggins then he will fall quickly much like Rudy Gay did. Remember how he we were "tanking" for him that one year. Consensus #1 pick in October and ended up going at #7 I beleive.

You have to look how a player projects to be in the future too though. I remember a friend back in the day thought JJ Redick would be a superstar when he got drafted... lol. Just because a player isn't putting up big games now doesn't mean he shouldn't be a top prospect. Paul George is a player some compare Wiggins to and I think they can have similar learning curves and trajectories as players. So yes, scouts don't value hype as much as the media, but that's the same reason why they won't buy the negative hype that's developing right now.

[rockmanslim]

Not taking about any particular player in this draft class, but it's weird how announcers are saying it doesn't matter what these prospects do now, it matters what they do in the tourney in March. But last March's tourney, when many of the top prospects had disappointing showings, the same announcers were saying, well, scouts don't put too much stock into the tournament anyway. they look at the entire season.

Makes me

[andyo]

The system Kansas plays is terrible for a player of Wiggins skill-set who really needs to be fed screen/roll opportunities consistently. But they maximize the utility of big men like Embiid.

No doubt he's been disappointing but I still have him slotted #1. There are a lot of benefits to being an elite athlete in this league, which I believe Wiggins to be/can be. He doesn't have the best fluidity right now but his explosiveness (first-step, 2-step vertical, etc.) is already up there. He also has an effortless way of scoring that can be refined with development; a lot of that due to his gifts athletically. Finally, he's already a superb finisher around the rim.

[Yosemite Dan]

I'm really underwhelmed by Wiggins. Considering the hype from him I expected so much more. We keep hearing excuses from people but how about some actual good games. Some breakout performances. We see them from Parker and the other top prospects.

If he continues to show a subdued effort like he has been showing almost every game with these underwhelming performances then he will fall out of the top 5. The one game where he had over 20 points last week was him chucking ill advised 3's where some happened to go in, that didn't show me anything because it was also the game where he had 5 turnovers. He was underwhelming again.

What the media thinks and what actually happens with team's scouts in the draft are 2 different things most times and with a draft where the top 6 players could end up being interchageable I can easily see Wiggins going even as low as #6. Who foresaw the Cavs first pick last year. How many times have we predicted drafts where the top 10 we thought would happen hardly resembled how the top 10 actually played out.

The media and the fanbase buy into the hype. Scouts don't. If all of them don't like what they are seeing from Wiggins then he will fall quickly much like Rudy Gay did. Remember how he we were "tanking" for him that one year. Consensus #1 pick in October and ended up going at #7 I beleive.

You have to look how a player projects to be in the future too though. I remember a friend back in the day thought JJ Redick would be a superstar when he got drafted... lol. Just because a player isn't putting up big games now doesn't mean he shouldn't be a top prospect. Paul George is a player some compare Wiggins to and I think they can have similar learning curves and trajectories as players. So yes, scouts don't value hype as much as the media, but that's the same reason why they won't buy the negative hype that's developing right now.

Why is there so much hype to begin with? Because Wiggins is considered a phenomenal athlete but his main competition was against highschool players. And that's when the hype took off and that hype has come from fans and the media in a sport that is always craving that next superstar. We were craving the next dominant centre and hyped the hell out of Greg Oden because although he had the skills, he was always fragile at the centre position where you need to be durable to be successful. He had injury issues in HS and college but we all thought his body would somehow man up in the NBA playing against grown men. We tended to ignore that much like we are ignoring Wiggins motivational issues in thinking he'll try when he needs to.

My point is what teams scouts are thinking about players we go gaga over often are very different and they don't use excuses, they see everything in black and white. What I'm saying is he could very easily fall out of the top 5. We're thinking with our hearts because no Canadian player ever had this type of hype and we want him to be a superstar in an American dominated sport. What he has shown so far against post high school competition has been lukewarm at best. Phenomenal "athletes" often don't become phenomenal basketball players, especially ones that have motivational problems that have been dogging Wiggins for awhile.

[snomeister]

The system Kansas plays is terrible for a player of Wiggins skill-set who really needs to be fed screen/roll opportunities consistently. But they maximize the utility of big men like Embiid.

No doubt he's been disappointing but I still have him slotted #1. There are a lot of benefits to being an elite athlete in this league, which I believe Wiggins to be/can be. He doesn't have the best fluidity right now but his explosiveness (first-step, 2-step vertical, etc.) is already up there. He also has an effortless way of scoring that can be refined with development; a lot of that due to his gifts athletically. Finally, he's already a superb finisher around the rim.

Exactly. The college game is made for wing players who can knock down shots and big men who can overpower smaller and lesser talented guys. There's no spacing, it isn't good for slashers and athletic players. But the NBA is exactly where they thrive. Lots more spacing to drive, no camping the paint. Russell Westbrook scored 3.4ppg as a college freshman. Take that in. He's a top 5 scorer in the NBA but couldn't even start for his college team over a one-year-older Darren Collison.

[Yosemite Dan]

Not taking about any particular player in this draft class, but it's weird how announcers are saying it doesn't matter what these prospects do now, it matters what they do in the tourney in March. But last March's tourney, when many of the top prospects had disappointing showings, the same announcers were saying, well, scouts don't put too much stock into the tournament anyway. they look at the entire season.

Makes me

It's called filling air time. When you have to talk that much especially during routs, you tend to contradict yourself.

[CanadaB-Ball]

I've watched him play in Golden State. He's improved his handle, yes, but he's still not overly productive. Average efficiency (53.3 TS%) on low-usage, an 11.7 PER, 0.083 WS/48, 103 ORtg, 105 DRtg and a -14.8 (!) NET +/- don't exactly scream future all-star.

He's still young, and he's a solid defender (which he has been dating back to his time at UNC), but I think you need to temper expectations. He's not even playing at the level (offensively) that DeMar was as a rookie/second-year pro.

His currency efficiency is low but you do have to consider the fact that he's being used as 4th option behind Curry (18.5 FGA), Thompson (16 FGA) and Lee (13.9 FGA), all of their FGAs are significantly higher than Barnes, the situation he's in and the current stat he poses under that circumstance, that's not a fair judgement to say he won't be future all star, whether he can become one or not in the future is depended on what "option" he will be used, that's the key here, 4th option wing player is never going to channel all star numbers, but he's already showing advanced skills to prove he belongs in the league, contrary to a lot of people that say he's a bust or he won't be able to score at the NBA level, all of these claims are already proven wrong, while your claim of him that he just hasn't been that good based on statistically, to repeat again, he's 4th option on a loaded team. Comparing to Demar in retrospect, he's actually more advanced than Demar was in rookie/second year pro, even Demar had the 2nd option opportunity in his 2nd year (14.1 FGA) which Barnes (10.8 FGA) doesn't get the privilege of doing so.

What? Sure, his PPG numbers will presumably improve as his role increases, but his efficiency (more than likely) will go down not up as his usage increases.

I'm not saying Barnes can't be useful. I think he has the potential to be a good third option (solid defender, good shooter, willing passer), I just don't see the star potential that you do. I'm not definitively stating that he won't be a star (no one knows for sure one way or another), I'm just saying I don't think he will be, and he has a long way to go before he can be considered one.