John Wall is the best PG in the East right now

[hands11]

checking out the Cavs forum and alot of them are turning on Kyrie. At 1st he was playing horrible and they all hated him for it. Now he's playing way better for the most part but they think he's a ball hog. Whenever I watch them he either stinks or he is unstoppable but it just looks like him vs the other team. I would hate to be a teammate or even a fan. One Cavs fan made a great point and said that he is just another Carmelo. Its funny how even his own fans percept

ion is changing. Give me a pass 1st guy who can also score and play great D like Wall all day. Again, I still think this is the worst version of Wall because of the system. Its a jump shooting system. Everyone blames Wall and its partly has fault but its a flat out jump shooting system. He would dominate with Brooks or even SVG

That's because he is not a PG. He is a small shooting guard. If he ain't in score-mode, he stands around watching. When he is in score-mode, he runs around screens trying to get free.

Cleveland needs a big PG like MCW in Philly. Kyrie gets his assists off of his scoring ability, not from running an offense. He either can't or does not want to run an offense. He wants to score.

Same problem we had when Gil was our PG. Which is why I like a true PG like Wall better.

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400489296
See the problem ? Kyrie 33 shot attempts. Bynum .... 3 Tristian only 13 attempts in 47 minutes. Varejao only 7 in 35 minutes. Now look at ATLs shoot distribution. Teague got up a lot of attempts, but only 24 in 49 mins while they got 17 shoots each from the post players Misap and Horford. Great line by Kyrie, but another lose.

So a player like that while very talented is a challenge. You have to force them to grow their games into something that helps a team win more. And not just win, but win playoff games. Kyrie is a great ball handler so not sure turning him into a SG is the long term answer, but it is an option for now. Gil always had that in him a well. The key is not to suck up to them, but to challenge them to be a more complete player and expand their game. Make them feed the post. I guess putting a PG out there with them could force them and crack some eggs. Kind of a .. hey.. if you aren't going to do what I ask, I'm taking the ball out of your hands. If not, trade them, bring back a kings ransom and add a real PG and SG. Actually, I used to say move Gil to SG all the time so I see what you are saying.

I have an idea. We trade them Maynor for Sergey Karasev. Might be the best trade ever for them so they can get the most out of Kyrie before its to late. Make Maynor the starting PG and let Kyrie play SG. Bring Jack off the bench with Waiters. I was kind of joking when I wrote that but you know what... it might actually work. lol

[hands11]

checking out the Cavs forum and alot of them are turning on Kyrie. At 1st he was playing horrible and they all hated him for it. Now he's playing way better for the most part but they think he's a ball hog. Whenever I watch them he either stinks or he is unstoppable but it just looks like him vs the other team. I would hate to be a teammate or even a fan. One Cavs fan made a great point and said that he is just another Carmelo. Its funny how even his own fans percept

ion is changing. Give me a pass 1st guy who can also score and play great D like Wall all day. Again, I still think this is the worst version of Wall because of the system. Its a jump shooting system. Everyone blames Wall and its partly has fault but its a flat out jump shooting system. He would dominate with Brooks or even SVG

I've watched a lot Cavs games this year, most recently the Hawks game last night.

Irving is an incredible scorer. He has that Kobe-type attitude of "I'm gonna score on you, and there's nothing you can do to stop me".. the problem is he isn't a 6'6 shooting guard like Kobe, he's a point guard who's primary responsibility is to run the offense. He'll come down on 3-4 consecutive possessions and take shots early in the clock without passing the ball. This is the point guard of the team doing this. He gets tunnel vision when facing double teams, and will try to dribble/cross guys up instead of making the right play and finding his teammates. It's kind of a red flag when your point guard is more interested in 'getting buckets' for himself than running the offense. And just like with Lebron, you get the sense that Mike Brown so in 'awe' of his abilities that he doesn't want to reign him in, or make him commit to a team-oriented system.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Kyrie Irving were 3-4 inches taller, he would have been a legendary, HOF-caliber swingman. He has the perfect mentality, just not the size.

I believe that if he were in the right situation, he could get away with playing like he does.. i.e. Damian Lillard in Portland, who is that same type of scoring point guard but has more talent + more structured offensive system around him. Cleveland doesn't have that at all, and the on-court product looks more like streetball than any sort of winning philosophy.

Didn't you just describe Gil and EFJ as well ?

[hands11]

I actually see a lot of Arenas in Irving. Arenas was just about 15% better across the board though but more or less they're the same player imo.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it was the system implemented by Eddie Jordan, or just the subtle differences in Arenas' game, but Arenas managed to be a shoot first point guard who still made the players around him better.

Maybe it's just that Arenas didn't play with the ball much. Players didn't find themselves standing around and watching.

Sure they did. I remember people commenting on that a lot back in the day. But we did have the weave and heave that gave the illusion that people were moving around for a purpose sometimes. But all that usually yielded was the end of the clock iso heave. But if you recall, they would go entire games off script and only weave and heave on 3 or 4 plays. The offense was pretty much, Gil does whatever he wants. Shoots the walk up 3 with 18 on the clock or drives. CB gets the ball and goes one on one or takes the mid range to 3 ball. AJ gets garbage baskets or takes a 3. Someone find DS for a 3. There was no real offensive system most the time.

It would be nothing for Gil to come down on 3 straight possession and shot without ever passing it. Talented shoot first scoring PG is a challenge and its why I don't like that model. Monte Ellis. Kryie. Gil. But now look at Ellis on a team with Dirk and Jose as PG where he isn't the first scoring option. That's when they are really worth more. That's what you want to do with a player like that. Get the ball out of their hands. Make then a SG with a PG and a scoring big. And whatever you do, don't over pay them. Look at Ellis now, he is making 8/9M for the next 3 years. That's good value. Never pay this kind of player 15-20M. It will be the death of your team.

[No-Man]

He is going to be the best PG in the East the whole season unless Irving really starts evolving and maturing as a player.
But, he is still worse than Paul, Parker, Westbrook, Curry, clearly, and the gap is big.
I have my doubts with Lillard, but Wall's defense puts him above.

[Brenice]

Same problem we had when Gil was our PG. Which is why I like a true PG like Wall better.

Rarely did I get a sense that Gil was sleepwalking on the court. Once in a while, Gil went into pout-mode when EJordan wanted him to be a true PG. But that was the rare occasion. Gil reluctantly ran the offense during games.

It seems like Kyrie is just standing on the perimeter (without the ball) not involved in the game at all in the first halves of games, getting out of the way, and then turns it on in 2nd halves as he goes into score-mode.

Kyrie is more of a small shooting (2) guard. Gil was a scoring point guard(2-1). The offense was never the problem with Gil. With Kyrie, if he aint scoring, the team ain't scoring much. The Cavs have weapons. Waiters, Jack, Thompson. They just don't mesh in the back court.

[Brenice]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

Outside of the Big 3, you just described the wizards roster during the Gil-era, duds. Cleveland has pieces, not Big 3 pieces, but they are not bad. They just don't mesh with Kyrie. The question is, what meshes with Kyrie?That's why they should have traded down and drafted Carter-Williams(hindsight is a btch), who can defend shooting guards.

[hands11]

He is going to be the best PG in the East the whole season unless Irving really starts evolving and maturing as a player.
But, he is still worse than Paul, Parker, Westbrook, Curry, clearly, and the gap is big.
I have my doubts with Lillard, but Wall's defense puts him above.

Wall is actually on the path to be a really good complete PG. Something unique. With his size, it would be a unique combination of skills if he keeps adding to his game. He just added PnR this year. The outside shooting while a work in progress is light year a head of where it was to start last season and should only get better. He is adding 3 pt range. He is blazing fast end to end. He always had that. He learned the change of pace move last year. He is learning how to effect the pace of the game. He has a cross over. He can chase you down on defense.

The next biggest piece I think he could add is MJ/Kobe effort lock down defense game in and game out. MJ was a great scorer, but he wouldn't be know as the greatest if it didn't also take defense as seriously as he did. He got awards for his defense. If Wall can add that, that gets him past Curry and puts him on a path to being the best all around PG in the league. He is still 2 years away from sniffing that though. One if we are really lucky. But we should see more flashes of it more often.

After that, he needs to learn how to probe the defense with his dribbling while keeping his dribble alive. CP3 and Parker stuff. Its in his reach to be truly great. Just needs to keep adding pieces to his game. That was always the potential of a Wall. I feared for a while he wouldn't get there. Now, its looking much more likely he does.

[Upper Decker]

He is going to be the best PG in the East the whole season unless Irving really starts evolving and maturing as a player.
But, he is still worse than Paul, Parker, Westbrook, Curry, clearly, and the gap is big.
I have my doubts with Lillard, but Wall's defense puts him above.

I know I'm in the minority, but Parker is the #1 PG in my book. Parker was the best player on the Spurs that nearly won the title last year. Paul is crazy overrated in my opinion. Griffin's better than Duncan at this point, DeAndre's better than Splitter, Crawfords better than Ginobeli, yet somehow every year the Clippers flop in the playoffs and the Spurs make it at least to the WCF. What gives? It's like calling Love the best PF in the game. At some point you need to legitimize that with post-season success.

[No-Man]

Jordan is not better than Splitter
The thing the Clippers are lacking is experience and chemistry.
Offensively yes, Parker is better than Paul, but in the end I will go with Paul, I like Parker better, but Paul is a more complete player.
Anyway it's close, right now PG rankings could look like...

Paul
Parker
Westbrook
Curry
Wall
Lillard
Irving
Lawson

The rest are far below at this point.

[Silvie Lysandra]

Prime Arenas was miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssss better than Irving. True, he wasn't a true PG either (though he was like 6'4, 210, he could have legitimately played SG, especially since he was less ball dominant than one would think), but he was a better scorer, playmaker, and even defender than Kyrie. Despite Kyrie's ability to score, he's not a top level scorer in the vein that Durant is or Kobe was during those days, and he doesn't make the team better, while everyone who played with Gilbert had a career season.

If only Arenas could have played with a Michael Carter Williams who could play PG on offense and defend SGs on defense, or even an Eric Snow who can defend 2s and run an offense.

[hands11]

Same problem we had when Gil was our PG. Which is why I like a true PG like Wall better.

Rarely did I get a sense that Gil was sleepwalking on the court. Once in a while, Gil went into pout-mode when EJordan wanted him to be a true PG. But that was the rare occasion. Gil reluctantly ran the offense during games.

It seems like Kyrie is just standing on the perimeter (without the ball) not involved in the game at all in the first halves of games, getting out of the way, and then turns it on in 2nd halves as he goes into score-mode.

Kyrie is more of a small shooting (2) guard. Gil was a scoring point guard(2-1). The offense was never the problem with Gil. With Kyrie, if he aint scoring, the team ain't scoring much. The Cavs have weapons. Waiters, Jack, Thompson. They just don't mesh in the back court.

Not Gil standing around. Other players standing around while Gil went all Gil on the other team. Now where he did stand around more was on defense. He was a terrible defender. Lazy. Always going for steals and jumping up on players with two feet off the ground where they would just go by him. Bad footwork. He wouldn't chop step toward them. He would hope with both feet off the ground at them. Bad effort. Bad technique. Damn near AJ bad.

Kyrie is standing around in the first half ? So they are getting the ball out of his hands in an attempt to run an offense ? So who is running the offense ? C.J. Miles ?

But you remember correctly. Gil was the same problem. He didn't want to run the offense or feed the post. That wasn't his game. His game is more like Kryie. I see them as very similar. Kyrie has better hands though. Neither was/is a great athlete. Give me the ball and let me do whatever I think it best. Shooting always being the first option Gil, Kryie, Eliis. They are all the same kind of player. Very talented scorer that have the handles to be PGs, can pass well, but are probably better as SG doing less in a more structured way that helps the team win playoff style basketball. And they are negatives on defense. They will put butt in the sets. But they aren't wining any titles with them being the best player on the team.

[pancakes3]

Outside of the Big 3, you just described the wizards roster during the Gil-era, duds. Cleveland has pieces, not Big 3 pieces, but they are not bad. They just don't mesh with Kyrie. The question is, what meshes with Kyrie?That's why they should have traded down and drafted Carter-Williams(hindsight is a btch), who can defend shooting guards.

Well that's just the thing. a) Gil was better and b) there was a big 3 in place. The rest were duds but good enough to squeak into the playoffs and make some noise. If Irving had Jamison and Butler they would be better than their current record also.

I know I'm in the minority, but Parker is the #1 PG in my book. Parker was the best player on the Spurs that nearly won the title last year. Paul is crazy overrated in my opinion. Griffin's better than Duncan at this point, DeAndre's better than Splitter, Crawfords better than Ginobeli, yet somehow every year the Clippers flop in the playoffs and the Spurs make it at least to the WCF. What gives? It's like calling Love the best PF in the game. At some point you need to legitimize that with post-season success.

I think it's a) Duncan is better than Griffin in all the ways that matter - defense and rebounding, b) Kwahi Leonard is quietly a Haslem-esque stud, and c) The Spurs have a neverending supply of role players that fill out the roster in a way that JJ Reddick and BJ Mullens can't (Green, Bonner, Diaw).

I don't think that Parker tops CP3 because of his team success. If you swapped places, Paul would be taking that spurs squad to the Finals also.

Prime Arenas was miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssss better than Arenas. True, he wasn't a true PG (though he was like 6'4, 210, he could have legitimately played SG, especially since he was less ball dominant than one would think), but he was a better scorer, playmaker, and even defender than Kyrie. Despite Kyrie's ability to score, he's not a top level scorer in the vein that Durant is or Kobe was during those days, and he doesn't make the team better, while everyone who played with Gilbert had a career season.

Well, I wouldn't say miles better but he certainly is better. Bigger, faster, stronger, better scorer, all that good stuff. However they do play very similarly. Prime TMac is certainly better than Paul George but that doesn't mean they can't be similar in their style of play or approach to the game.

[hands11]

I actually see a lot of Arenas in Irving. Arenas was just about 15% better across the board though but more or less they're the same player imo.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it was the system implemented by Eddie Jordan, or just the subtle differences in Arenas' game, but Arenas managed to be a shoot first point guard who still made the players around him better.

Maybe it's just that Arenas didn't play with the ball much. Players didn't find themselves standing around and watching.

Who did he make better. Larry Hughes ? Another shoot first player that was a SG/PG DS ? DS was a spot up shooter. If you look at his ORL number the previous year he posted all the exact same numbers, only he added a 3 ball the first year with us. AJ was AJ so not sure what changed there. CB was already on the rise and is still playing. Who did he make better ?

Not sure where Gil is 15% better across the board. Kyrie has better handles and is a better shooter. Compare their first 3 years.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/974/gilbert-arenas
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... rie-irving

Kyrie has been better. Gil was an inch taller and rebounded better. Kyrie is a better shooter and FT shooter. His 3 ball is down this year, but that probably won't last. .399 is more in line with his average.

The big difference is that one was drafted #1 and the other #31

[Brenice]

Not Gil standing around. Other players standing around while Gil went all Gil on the other team.

The #1 scoring option will have phases of the game where they dominate while others stand around. Kobe, Jordan, Gil, Kyrie, etc. The other players job is to space the floor and get out of the way. ISO. That is not the problem. The problem for PG's like Gil and Kyrie, is what are YOU contributing offensively when you are not taking the game over scoring. This is where Kyrie needs to improve to catch Gil in that area.

[Brenice]

Who did he make better. Larry Hughes ? Another shoot first player that was a SG/PG DS ? DS was a spot up shooter. If you look at his ORL number the previous year he posted all the exact same numbers, only he added a 3 ball the first year with us. AJ was AJ so not sure what changed there. CB was already on the rise and is still playing. Who did he make better ?

Those guys played better with Gil than without. All the attention Gil drew allowed Stevenson to have the best years of his career. AJ helped Gil and Gil helped AJ because you have to respect them on the perimeter. Butler had career years playing with Gil also. That probably coincided with his prime though. But in the end, Gil made it easier for them. He certainly didn't make them WORSE. IMO, Ariza and Butler have benefited from playing with Wall as both have had other stops in their careers and are having career years with Wall.

Kyrie has made nobody better or have a career year.

[dobrojim]

it was just one game I'm thinking of (xmas) but Parker doesn't look that great to me this year.

he was dominant in the playoff until the finals last year.

[hands11]

Jordan is not better than Splitter
The thing the Clippers are lacking is experience and chemistry.
Offensively yes, Parker is better than Paul, but in the end I will go with Paul, I like Parker better, but Paul is a more complete player.
Anyway it's close, right now PG rankings could look like...

Paul
Parker
Westbrook
Curry
Wall
Lillard
Irving
Lawson

The rest are far below at this point.

For me, I wouldn't even have Kyrie on the list. He is 36th is assist per 36. This is his 3rd year at that position. That isn't a PG to me.

Oh the horror. This guy is getting worse, not better.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nky01.html

I would add Jeff Teague. We are talking PGs right ? MCW has been amazing so far. 7.7 Ast, 17.4, 5.4 rebs per/36 ... He is the run away for ROTY right now. Burke would have to do really get it in gear to catch him but he is still ramping up after missing the start of the year do to injury. I would already put MCW on the list. He has been that good.

Paul
Curry
Parker
Wall
Lawson
Jeff Teague
MCW
Westbrook
Lillard

Something closer to that for me. Not as players in total, but as PGs.

[hands11]

Not Gil standing around. Other players standing around while Gil went all Gil on the other team.

The #1 scoring option will have phases of the game where they dominate while others stand around. Kobe, Jordan, Gil, Kyrie, etc. The other players job is to space the floor and get out of the way. ISO. That is not the problem. The problem for PG's like Gil and Kyrie, is what are YOU contributing offensively when you are not taking the game over scoring. This is where Kyrie needs to improve to catch Gil in that area.

What are you contributing offensively when you aren't scoring ? Like what ? Assists ? Kyrie is doing better then Gil did so far in first 3 year comparison. What area does he need to catch Gil in regarding what you are talking about ?

Where a player like this could really help is by playing defense. Both suck/sucked.
The other area would be actually running the offense. Neither wants/wanted to.

I thought Kyrie would be a different player. I know he could score, but I thought he would be more of a PG than he is. If this is what he is going to be, I would trade him and get a ton of assets from some sucker before he becomes an expensive nightmare. Same things I said about Gil while he was posting big scoring numbers and had the same issue Kyrie does. See if Philly is dumb enough to give up MCW and some more assets. I doubt they are.

Cleveland is really is a bind just like Washington was. A player like that thinks they are worth so much more money then they really are. Big time scorers from the PG slot on a losing team that you can't run an organized offense with is a mega max player. I would pay a player like this 12-14M max and make then a SG like Dallas did with Ellis. Kyrie is just a more marketable Ellis. And Ellis only cost them 8 and then 9M over 3 years.

What team would give up there top level PG for Kyrie ? That's who they should trade with.

[hands11]

Who did he make better. Larry Hughes ? Another shoot first player that was a SG/PG DS ? DS was a spot up shooter. If you look at his ORL number the previous year he posted all the exact same numbers, only he added a 3 ball the first year with us. AJ was AJ so not sure what changed there. CB was already on the rise and is still playing. Who did he make better ?

Those guys played better with Gil than without. All the attention Gil drew allowed Stevenson to have the best years of his career. AJ helped Gil and Gil helped AJ because you have to respect them on the perimeter. Butler had career years playing with Gil also. That probably coincided with his prime though. But in the end, Gil made it easier for them. He certainly didn't make them WORSE. IMO, Ariza and Butler have benefited from playing with Wall as both have had other stops in their careers and are having career years with Wall.

Kyrie has made nobody better or have a career year.

DS was not better except he added a 3 ball.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/808/ ... -stevenson

AJ was AJ. He actually posted better numbers at GS and better efficiency at 6th man of the year at Dallas
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... wn-jamison

Hughes most efficient productive year here was 02-03 Gil wasn't even here yet.
Once Gil joined the year later, they were both inefficient chuckers. Hughes was the original N1on5 before Nick was. At least Hughes played some defense and would pass the ball to Haywood sometimes. Steve Blake was actually the best PG on that team. It was stupid they let him go. Should have been backing up Gil at a min.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/356/larry-hughes

Caron Bulter as you mentioned was coming into his own. We got his best years here. Then injuries got the best of him. Was it timing of him becoming prime CB or partly to do with playing with Gil ? He was a type that needed another good scorer out their with him. But that's not uncommon of a lot of players. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... ron-butler

Looking at those players, I don't see anything that shows Gil clearly made players around him better. DS was the same but added a 3 ball. Hughes got worse. AJ worse or about the same, only his 3 ball matured over the years and he keep doing that even after he left. That leaves CB who was coming into his own.

What you saw was a wide open offense of chucker that didn't play defense. That got Hughes a nice contract. AJ was already overpaid when we got him and then signed him for more then he was worth. CB got paid fairly for what he would have been healthy, but more then he should have with his injury issues. DS was never the same after his back problem but was a useful utility player for a while. But never the same defensive presence he was here. Defense was his calling card. I don't think Gil taught him any about that. Thought he may have advised him on the credit card picture and on getting under LeBrons skins since LeBron iced Gil at the FT line at the peak of his douche days.


Oh the good old days

[Brenice]

What are you contributing offensively when you aren't scoring ? Like what ? Assists ? Kyrie is going better then Gil did so far in first 3 year comparison. What area does he need to catch Gil in regarding what you are talking about ?

Where a player like this could really help is by playing defense. Both suck/sucked.
The other area would be actually running the offense. Neither wants/wanted to.

I thought Kyrie would be a different player. I know he could score, but I thought he would be more of a PG than he is. If this is what he is going to be, I would trade him and get a ton of assets from some sucker before he becomes an expensive nightmare. Same things I said about Gil while he was posting big scoring numbers and had the same issue Kyrie does. See if Philly is dumb enough to give up MCW and some more assets. I doubt they are.

Cleveland is really is a bind just like Washington was. A player like that thinks they are worth so much more money then they really are. Big time scorers from the PG slot on a losing team that you can't run an organized offense with is a mega max player. I would pay a player like this 12-14M max and make then a SG like Dallas did with Ellis. Kyrie is just a more marketable Ellis. And Ellis only cost them 8 and then 9M over 3 years.

What team would give up there top level PG for Kyrie ? That's who they should trade with.

We agree totally on the defense side of the ball. They both neglect it (putting it mildly). Offensively is where we see things a lil differently. Neither are pure PG's. The difference I see is generally in the first half of games. Kyrie tends to be invisible. Gil did more thru out the whole game offensively. I'm not saying he was a great running an offense, but Kyrie brings the ball up...passes to the wing, and goes to sleep. No penetration and dish, no passing around the perimeter, limited movement...he's just there. Gil just seemed more involved(maybe that's how to put it).

As for team scoring, offense wasn't the downfall to that team. Defense was. Cleveland is not the offensive team as those Wizards. Part of it is their core is young...but part of it is Kyrie. It seems Cleveland plays 4 on 5 in the first half of games when Kyrie is in the game.