John Wall is the best PG in the East right now

[Brenice]

DS was not better except he added a 3 ball.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/808/ ... -stevenson

AJ was AJ. He actually posted better numbers at GS
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... wn-jamison

Hughes most efficient productive year here was 02-03 Gil wasn't even here yet. Once Gil joined the year later, they were both inefficient chuckers. Hughes was the original N1on5 before Nick was. At least Hughes played some defense and would pass the ball to Haywood sometimes.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/356/larry-hughes

Caron Bulter as you mentioned was coming into his own. We got his best years here. Then injuries got the best of him. Was it timing of him becoming prime CB or partly to do with playing with Gil ? He was a type that needed another good scorer out their with him. But that's not uncommon of a lot of players. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... ron-butler

Looking at those players, I don't see anything that shows Gil clearly made players around him better. DS was the same but added a 3 ball. Hughes got worse. AJ worse or about the same, only his 3 ball matured over the years and he keep doing that even after he left. That leaves CB who was coming into his own.

What you saw was a wide open offense of chucker that didn't play defense. That got Hughes a nice contract. AJ was already overpaid when we got him and then signed him for more then he was worth. CB got paid fairly for what he would have been healthy, but more then he should have with his injury issues. DS was never the same after his back problem but was a useful utility player for a while. But never the same defensive presence he was here. Defense was his calling card. I don't think Gil taught him any about that.

I ask again, who is playing better because of Kyrie? Who plays better with Kyrie than without him?

[Illmatic21]

checking out the Cavs forum and alot of them are turning on Kyrie. At 1st he was playing horrible and they all hated him for it. Now he's playing way better for the most part but they think he's a ball hog. Whenever I watch them he either stinks or he is unstoppable but it just looks like him vs the other team. I would hate to be a teammate or even a fan. One Cavs fan made a great point and said that he is just another Carmelo. Its funny how even his own fans percept

ion is changing. Give me a pass 1st guy who can also score and play great D like Wall all day. Again, I still think this is the worst version of Wall because of the system. Its a jump shooting system. Everyone blames Wall and its partly has fault but its a flat out jump shooting system. He would dominate with Brooks or even SVG

I've watched a lot Cavs games this year, most recently the Hawks game last night.

Irving is an incredible scorer. He has that Kobe-type attitude of "I'm gonna score on you, and there's nothing you can do to stop me".. the problem is he isn't a 6'6 shooting guard like Kobe, he's a point guard who's primary responsibility is to run the offense. He'll come down on 3-4 consecutive possessions and take shots early in the clock without passing the ball. This is the point guard of the team doing this. He gets tunnel vision when facing double teams, and will try to dribble/cross guys up instead of making the right play and finding his teammates. It's kind of a red flag when your point guard is more interested in 'getting buckets' for himself than running the offense. And just like with Lebron, you get the sense that Mike Brown so in 'awe' of his abilities that he doesn't want to reign him in, or make him commit to a team-oriented system.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Kyrie Irving were 3-4 inches taller, he would have been a legendary, HOF-caliber swingman. He has the perfect mentality, just not the size.

I believe that if he were in the right situation, he could get away with playing like he does.. i.e. Damian Lillard in Portland, who is that same type of scoring point guard but has more talent + more structured offensive system around him. Cleveland doesn't have that at all, and the on-court product looks more like streetball than any sort of winning philosophy.

Didn't you just describe Gil and EFJ as well ?

Yes, they're nearly the exact same player. I've been saying it since his rookie season, but was always rebuffed by the Uncle Drew fanboys.. "Arenas? *gasp* don't say that!"

Initially all the rage was to compare Irving to Chris Paul (lol), but gradually people are starting to see that the Arenas comparison is dead-on. Comparing someone to prime Gil is no insult. I actually think Irving will be better, he'll post better shooting splits throughout his career. But if you expect him to commit to any offensive system that doesn't involve him getting his 'buckets', good luck. If you expect him to give effort on the defensive end, good luck. We've seen this story before with Gil.

But again, Irving could be fairly successful in the right system. Arenas/Butler/Jamison was a very good core that peaked as the #1 seed in the East and on pace for 50+ wins (before the injuries that season). Give Irving some running mates and he could do damage. It'll be interesting to see if Cleveland's FO will ever be able to surround him with talent, given their track record..

[dckingsfan]

One ranking anyway - although incomplete

http://standingosports.com/main/2013/12 ... ngs-35-26/

[hands11]

What are you contributing offensively when you aren't scoring ? Like what ? Assists ? Kyrie is going better then Gil did so far in first 3 year comparison. What area does he need to catch Gil in regarding what you are talking about ?

Where a player like this could really help is by playing defense. Both suck/sucked.
The other area would be actually running the offense. Neither wants/wanted to.

I thought Kyrie would be a different player. I know he could score, but I thought he would be more of a PG than he is. If this is what he is going to be, I would trade him and get a ton of assets from some sucker before he becomes an expensive nightmare. Same things I said about Gil while he was posting big scoring numbers and had the same issue Kyrie does. See if Philly is dumb enough to give up MCW and some more assets. I doubt they are.

Cleveland is really is a bind just like Washington was. A player like that thinks they are worth so much more money then they really are. Big time scorers from the PG slot on a losing team that you can't run an organized offense with is a mega max player. I would pay a player like this 12-14M max and make then a SG like Dallas did with Ellis. Kyrie is just a more marketable Ellis. And Ellis only cost them 8 and then 9M over 3 years.

What team would give up there top level PG for Kyrie ? That's who they should trade with.

We agree totally on the defense side of the ball. They both neglect it (putting it mildly). Offensively is where we see things a lil differently. Neither are pure PG's. The difference I see is generally in the first half of games. Kyrie tends to be invisible. Gil did more thru out the whole game offensively. I'm not saying he was a great running an offense, but Kyrie brings the ball up...passes to the wing, and goes to sleep. No penetration and dish, no passing around the perimeter, limited movement...he's just there. Gil just seemed more involved(maybe that's how to put it).

As for team scoring, offense wasn't the downfall to that team. Defense was. Cleveland is not the offensive team as those Wizards. Part of it is their core is young...but part of it is Kyrie. It seems Cleveland plays 4 on 5 in the first half of games when Kyrie is in the game.

Sounds like an ideal time to give 100% on defense if that is what he is doing. Its a shame when very talented players like this don't maximize their skills. Just steer clear of paying them a lot of money. You will regret it.

[hands11]

I've watched a lot Cavs games this year, most recently the Hawks game last night.

Irving is an incredible scorer. He has that Kobe-type attitude of "I'm gonna score on you, and there's nothing you can do to stop me".. the problem is he isn't a 6'6 shooting guard like Kobe, he's a point guard who's primary responsibility is to run the offense. He'll come down on 3-4 consecutive possessions and take shots early in the clock without passing the ball. This is the point guard of the team doing this. He gets tunnel vision when facing double teams, and will try to dribble/cross guys up instead of making the right play and finding his teammates. It's kind of a red flag when your point guard is more interested in 'getting buckets' for himself than running the offense. And just like with Lebron, you get the sense that Mike Brown so in 'awe' of his abilities that he doesn't want to reign him in, or make him commit to a team-oriented system.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Kyrie Irving were 3-4 inches taller, he would have been a legendary, HOF-caliber swingman. He has the perfect mentality, just not the size.

I believe that if he were in the right situation, he could get away with playing like he does.. i.e. Damian Lillard in Portland, who is that same type of scoring point guard but has more talent + more structured offensive system around him. Cleveland doesn't have that at all, and the on-court product looks more like streetball than any sort of winning philosophy.

Didn't you just describe Gil and EFJ as well ?

Yes, they're nearly the exact same player. I've been saying it since his rookie season, but was always rebuffed by the Uncle Drew fanboys.. "Arenas? *gasp* don't say that!"

Initially all the rage was to compare Irving to Chris Paul (lol), but gradually people are starting to see that the Arenas comparison is dead-on. Comparing someone to prime Gil is no insult. I actually think Irving will be better, he'll post better shooting splits throughout his career. But if you expect him to commit to any offensive system that doesn't involve him getting his 'buckets', good luck. If you expect him to give effort on the defensive end, good luck. We've seen this story before with Gil.

But again, Irving could be fairly successful in the right system. Arenas/Butler/Jamison was a very good core that peaked as the #1 seed in the East and on pace for 50+ wins (before the injuries that season). Give Irving some running mates and he could do damage. It'll be interesting to see if Cleveland's FO will ever be able to surround him with talent, given their track record..

Well you didn't get any kick back from me. I was always pointing these thing out about Gil but since he brought excitement to the team, people were hard to hear the truth about his game so I was whistling in the wing. Gil was like some kind of Wizards Crack to people. I would say put him at SG all the time and peoples minds would blow up. Same thing happened when I said trade him while his value is high or don't mega max him. I was regularly pointing out the flaws of designing a team around a "PG" like this. Because they aren't really PGs. They are high volume scoring SG with the ball in their hands every play. I said build around CB and Haywood. They were at least positionally sound players at the time. Trade Gil for a kings ransom and build a team for the future. Get ride of AJ or bring him off the bench. But no. They mega max'd Gil and singed AJ for more then he was worth to be a starter. End of story. Blow it up and start over. And here we are all these years later.

Hell, I trust Crawford to learn to be a PG more then either of these two. Crawford is cut from the same thread they are. Just not a good a shooter from outside and a little weaker on driving. But at least he will run the offense and wants to learn the position.

Gil was interesting and scored a lot of point, but I never saw him as a winning PG that could lead the team anywhere given his style. I saw him as a very challenging player to add good player to because like Kyrie, he has #1 ambiance about him, but you really need them to be your #2 at SG with PG given them the ball when needed. Or they need to learn to be PG. And they need to focus more on defense.

Wall is on a better path to being a great PG then either of these two.

[hands11]

DS was not better except he added a 3 ball.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/808/ ... -stevenson

AJ was AJ. He actually posted better numbers at GS
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... wn-jamison

Hughes most efficient productive year here was 02-03 Gil wasn't even here yet. Once Gil joined the year later, they were both inefficient chuckers. Hughes was the original N1on5 before Nick was. At least Hughes played some defense and would pass the ball to Haywood sometimes.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/356/larry-hughes

Caron Bulter as you mentioned was coming into his own. We got his best years here. Then injuries got the best of him. Was it timing of him becoming prime CB or partly to do with playing with Gil ? He was a type that needed another good scorer out their with him. But that's not uncommon of a lot of players. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... ron-butler

Looking at those players, I don't see anything that shows Gil clearly made players around him better. DS was the same but added a 3 ball. Hughes got worse. AJ worse or about the same, only his 3 ball matured over the years and he keep doing that even after he left. That leaves CB who was coming into his own.

What you saw was a wide open offense of chucker that didn't play defense. That got Hughes a nice contract. AJ was already overpaid when we got him and then signed him for more then he was worth. CB got paid fairly for what he would have been healthy, but more then he should have with his injury issues. DS was never the same after his back problem but was a useful utility player for a while. But never the same defensive presence he was here. Defense was his calling card. I don't think Gil taught him any about that.

I ask again, who is playing better because of Kyrie? Who plays better with Kyrie than without him?

Sorry. I didn't see where you asked that. I'm probably not the one to answer that since I haven't researched it but I wouldn't be shocked if the answer was no one. What I was addressing was the claim that Gil made people better. That I have a little more experience with. So who did Gil make better ? Seems people like to say that he did but who ? It wasn't the players I listed.

It wasn't Etan, or Kwame. Blake ? Dixon ? Jefferies ? Hayes ? AD ? Songaila ? Dray ? Mason ? Nick ?

Who was it he made better ? It wasn't any of those players. And it wasn't DS, Hughes, AJ or Caron.

Maybe it was Ruffin. He was smart enough to know Gil was going to shoot and was ready to rebound.
He also made AJ better. Not on the court, but in the pocket. Didn't Gil go to bat for AJ to make sure he got paid. That really helped the team.

[Kanyewest]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

[hands11]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

Isn't he their upgraded version of DS. Does he play any defense ?

[Kanyewest]

Not sure how putting Arenas at shooting guard would have made a difference. Jamison/Butler were still 20 ppg scorers. Only guy who I can think of that did better without Arenas was Haywood and that coincided with Etan Thomas getting injured.

[Kanyewest]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

Isn't he their upgraded version of DS. Does he play any defense ?

I'm thinking solely on the offensive end. Maybe Hughes high productivity coincided offensively with him getting 3 steals per game. Still Irving does have someone to work with on that end.

But Cleveland has had some really questionable picks. They have Thompson, Waiters, Tyler Zeller, and Anthony Bennett. I wonder how long it is before they fire their GM. Theoretically they could have had Jonas V, Andre Drummond, Jared Sullinger, and Oladipo.

[hands11]

Not sure how putting Arenas at shooting guard would have made a difference. Jamison/Butler were still 20 ppg scorers. Only guy who I can think of that did better without Arenas was Haywood and that coincided with Etan Thomas getting injured.

Have you watched Dallas play ? Not the TV series from the 80's. The NBA team.

[hands11]

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

Isn't he their upgraded version of DS. Does he play any defense ?

I'm thinking solely on the offensive end. Maybe Hughes high productivity coincided offensively with him getting 3 steals per game. Still Irving does have someone to work with on that end.

But Cleveland has had some really questionable picks. They have Thompson, Waiters, Tyler Zeller, and Anthony Bennett. I wonder how long it is before they fire their GM. Theoretically they could have had Jonas V, Andre Drummond, Jared Sullinger, and Oladipo.

Again. Hughes best year was the year before Gil got here. I can see how people memory could confuse that.

It is funny about their picks. They seemed good at the time but in hind sight, ouch. Maybe they aren't working out because of Kyrie. But yes, those all would have been better picks for them. Specially Drummonds and Sully. I have no idea why they didn't pick VO. That seemed like such a no brainer. Then Orlando should have taken Burk or MCW if they had the insite to do that. Or if they picked better, take Burke or MCW this year.

Wow. You look at Cleveland, BRK, NY and you have to be thankful that while we don't like our GM, at least we aren't those teams. But CLE can still recover if they trade well.

If Bynum can stay healthy and they add a PG, they could turn that around quick. But man Drummonds would be good for them if they picked him.

MCW or Burke/Jarrett Jack
Kyrie/Jarrett Jack
MEH
Sully/Tristan
Drummonds/Bynum

or even with what they have.

Kyrie/Jarrett Jack
VO/Waiters
MEH
Tristan/Zeller
Bynum/Mop head

But the first group is better.

[pancakes3]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

And we won all of... 25 games with Arenas/Hughes. It wasn't until we added Jamison and played Haywood 30mpg that we ramped it up to 45 wins.

[Brenice]

DS was not better except he added a 3 ball.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/808/ ... -stevenson

AJ was AJ. He actually posted better numbers at GS
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... wn-jamison

Hughes most efficient productive year here was 02-03 Gil wasn't even here yet. Once Gil joined the year later, they were both inefficient chuckers. Hughes was the original N1on5 before Nick was. At least Hughes played some defense and would pass the ball to Haywood sometimes.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/356/larry-hughes

Caron Bulter as you mentioned was coming into his own. We got his best years here. Then injuries got the best of him. Was it timing of him becoming prime CB or partly to do with playing with Gil ? He was a type that needed another good scorer out their with him. But that's not uncommon of a lot of players. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/i ... ron-butler

Looking at those players, I don't see anything that shows Gil clearly made players around him better. DS was the same but added a 3 ball. Hughes got worse. AJ worse or about the same, only his 3 ball matured over the years and he keep doing that even after he left. That leaves CB who was coming into his own.

What you saw was a wide open offense of chucker that didn't play defense. That got Hughes a nice contract. AJ was already overpaid when we got him and then signed him for more then he was worth. CB got paid fairly for what he would have been healthy, but more then he should have with his injury issues. DS was never the same after his back problem but was a useful utility player for a while. But never the same defensive presence he was here. Defense was his calling card. I don't think Gil taught him any about that.

I ask again, who is playing better because of Kyrie? Who plays better with Kyrie than without him?

Sorry. I didn't see where you asked that. I'm probably not the one to answer that since I haven't researched it but I wouldn't be shocked if the answer was no one. What I was addressing was the claim that Gil made people better. That I have a little more experience with. So who did Gil make better ? Seems people like to say that he did but who ? It wasn't the players I listed.

It wasn't Etan, or Kwame. Blake ? Dixon ? Jefferies ? Hayes ? AD ? Songaila ? Dray ? Mason ? Nick ?

Who was it he made better ? It wasn't any of those players. And it wasn't DS, Hughes, AJ or Caron.

Maybe it was Ruffin. He was smart enough to know Gil was going to shoot and was ready to rebound.
He also made AJ better. Not on the court, but in the pocket. Didn't Gil go to bat for AJ to make sure he got paid. That really helped the team.

You right about the bums. IMO those who got the majority of minutes with Gil benefitted. Nobody is befitting from Kyrie. Arenas was not a Nash or a CP3 in that regards. I'm not saying that. But he did open up the floor and find them for open shots.

[hands11]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

And we won all of... 25 games with Arenas/Hughes. It wasn't until we added Jamison and played Haywood 30mpg that we ramped it up to 45 wins.

You mean until our excellent coach had no other choice but to play Haywood. It was far from his first choice. Actually, he wanted him off the team.

EFJ was a terrible coach. He killed his players with minutes. Played then max min right after injury. Taught ZERO defense. Hugged Gil's balls at every turn. Had no leadership of the team. Had a crap offense built for no shot clock and 5 mid talented white kids that could shot mid range and 3s. Never adjusted to the best line ups. Only stumbled into them. And because of Abes love of people, he was the HC for what, 7 years or something.

[Brenice]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

And we won all of... 25 games with Arenas/Hughes. It wasn't until we added Jamison and played Haywood 30mpg that we ramped it up to 45 wins.

That roster was forecasted to be better than the wizards this year. Andy V is not a bum. The only disappointment is Bennett. Irving/Waiters was supposed to be better than it is.

[hands11]

I ask again, who is playing better because of Kyrie? Who plays better with Kyrie than without him?

Sorry. I didn't see where you asked that. I'm probably not the one to answer that since I haven't researched it but I wouldn't be shocked if the answer was no one. What I was addressing was the claim that Gil made people better. That I have a little more experience with. So who did Gil make better ? Seems people like to say that he did but who ? It wasn't the players I listed.

It wasn't Etan, or Kwame. Blake ? Dixon ? Jefferies ? Hayes ? AD ? Songaila ? Dray ? Mason ? Nick ?

Who was it he made better ? It wasn't any of those players. And it wasn't DS, Hughes, AJ or Caron.

Maybe it was Ruffin. He was smart enough to know Gil was going to shoot and was ready to rebound.
He also made AJ better. Not on the court, but in the pocket. Didn't Gil go to bat for AJ to make sure he got paid. That really helped the team.

You right about the bums. IMO those who got the majority of minutes with Gil benefitted. Nobody is befitting from Kyrie. Arenas was not a Nash or a CP3 in that regards. I'm not saying that. But he did open up the floor and find them for open shots.

I understand it is you opinions. And that's is cool and all. Its a BB. But I posted stats. Did the stats show that Gil helped make anyone better? Cuz I'm not seeing it. Kyle Korver makes bucket and opens the floor for people also. People make Gil out to be some kind of greatest player type. But he really wasn't. Hell, I respect Monte Ellis as a talent. He is a great scorer. But he isn't a top flight player. He is up there but he isn't Wade. He isn't even Curry.

Gil was about as good as Monte Ellis. And hey, they doesn't suck at all for the 31st pick. Its great. But he was never a mega max player nor should have have been the best player on your team. Monte is making 8M this year. Someone finally figured out who he is and how to use him best. That never happened with Gil.

[Kanyewest]

I think it's just that Jamison/Butler complements a star player offensively much better than Tristan Thomas and Alonzo Gee. Irving really does have a dud of a roster to work with offensively. Very Lebron-esque.

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

And we won all of... 25 games with Arenas/Hughes. It wasn't until we added Jamison and played Haywood 30mpg that we ramped it up to 45 wins.

True. Still, Hughes was improving irregardless of Jamison's impact. Hughes was better with a Washington 1st year's Arenas than he was at any time with LeBron's Cavaliers.

[hands11]

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

And we won all of... 25 games with Arenas/Hughes. It wasn't until we added Jamison and played Haywood 30mpg that we ramped it up to 45 wins.

That roster was forecasted to be better than the wizards this year. Andy V is not a bum. The only disappointment is Bennett. Irving/Waiters was supposed to be better than it is.

I had CLE as the 11th best team in the conference. Right now they are 10th. And thats with BRK busting and Rose out so Chicago is busting. Everything would have had to work out right for them to be better. If NY foes anything, they are 11th. Right where I had them.

Never buy the hype.

I had the Wizards 5th. Now if they get their act together, they can challenge for 3rd with ATL. But watch out for TOR.

[hands11]

What about Dion Waiters? Is he any better/worse than Larry Hughes?

And we won all of... 25 games with Arenas/Hughes. It wasn't until we added Jamison and played Haywood 30mpg that we ramped it up to 45 wins.

True. Still, Hughes was improving irregardless of Jamison's impact. Hughes was better with a Washington 1st year's Arenas than he was at any time with LeBron's Cavaliers.

Show us why you think that he was improved with Gil. I saw the numbers. He was best the year before Gil got here. He got worse when Gil arrived, not better.