John Wall is the best PG in the East right now

[Kanyewest]

That roster was forecasted to be better than the wizards this year. Andy V is not a bum. The only disappointment is Bennett. Irving/Waiters was supposed to be better than it is.

The previews I saw actually had the Wizards better than the Cavaliers- and more or less in the same neighborhood of wins and losses. I think the main cause is that Kyrie Irving is probably overrated by ESPN based on all the highlights. The biggest problem with Irving is not that he is a pass first point guard but either Irving or his team can't guard opposing point guards. For instance Irving had 40 points and 9 assists against the Hawks. But Jeff Teague had 34 points and 15 assists (14 of 24 from the field) and pretty much outplayed Irving.

These are some of the stat lines of opposing players in the past couple of games

Brandon Jennings - 21 points (6-11), 13 assists
DJ Augustine - 18 points (7-12), 10 assists
Damian Lillard - 36 points (11-23), 10 assists, 8 rebounds

[pancakes3]

And we won all of... 25 games with Arenas/Hughes. It wasn't until we added Jamison and played Haywood 30mpg that we ramped it up to 45 wins.

True. Still, Hughes was improving irregardless of Jamison's impact. Hughes was better with a Washington 1st year's Arenas than he was at any time with LeBron's Cavaliers.

Show us why you think that he was improved with Gil. I saw the numbers. He was best the year before Gil got here. He got worse when Gil arrived, not better.

Why is the burden of proof on kanye and not you? 2005 is easily Hughes's best year. He made 60 million dollars off that season.

[Kanyewest]

Show us why you think that he was improved with Gil. I saw the numbers. He was best the year before Gil got here. He got worse when Gil arrived, not better.

Hughes PER was actually higher the year when Arenas arrived. Yes Hughes was getting high percentage looks. But 3.5 assists per game is pretty bad for a starting point guard. I remember Collins (IMO this was a dumb decision) starting Tyronne Lue over Hughes at the end of the season. Looks like Hughes did a better job getting to the free throw line and 2.8 assists per game was respectable for a shooting guard.

I think Hughes shooting numbers dropped because the team overall was worse. Jordan left, Stackhouse was injured, and Arenas/Hughes were still learning EJ's new system.

[Brenice]

Monta Ellis will never be as good as Gil, whatever the situation.

[hands11]

True. Still, Hughes was improving irregardless of Jamison's impact. Hughes was better with a Washington 1st year's Arenas than he was at any time with LeBron's Cavaliers.

Show us why you think that he was improved with Gil. I saw the numbers. He was best the year before Gil got here. He got worse when Gil arrived, not better.

Why is the burden of proof on kanye and not you? 2005 is easily Hughes's best year. He made 60 million dollars off that season.

I already proved my point. I posted the numbers. His most efficient year was before Gil got here. All you are looking at is more minutes and volume shooting. That was not his best year. 02-'03 was. He shot .282 from 3 the year you are talking about. Yeah. He got paid. Buy some idiots. Lucky they weren't us.

[hands11]

Monta Ellis will never be as good as Gil, whatever the situation.

Look at the numbers.

[pancakes3]

I already proved my point. I posted the numbers. His most efficient year was before Gil got here. All you are looking at is more minutes and volume shooting. That was not his best year. 02-'03 was. He shot .282 from 3 the year you are talking about. Yeah. He got paid. Buy some idiots. Lucky they weren't us.

You posted A number. The other numbers say...per minute...
Hughes had the same amount of turnovers and fouls yet more assists, steals, rebounds, and free throws.
His PER went from a pedestrian 15.5 to a borderline all-star-like 21.6.
He led the league in steals.
He went from a 101/104 o/d rating to a 110/104 o/d rating.
His on/off went from -0.1 to +6.2

and of course... his TS% was actually higher in '05 than '03. .

[nate33]

At the risk of tempting fate, I'll just mention that so far in his career, Wall seems to be quite durable. He played 69 of 82 games as a rookie, which is reasonable since most rookies have a little trouble adapting to the grind. (IIRC, there was no traumatic injury. He just had some tendonitis issues and they decided to shut him down the last 13 games.) He played every game the following year. Then he had the one knee injury causing him to miss 33 games. And he hasn't missed a game since.

In this day an age, staying healthy is a skill. We are fortunate that our star player has that skill.

[hands11]

I already proved my point. I posted the numbers. His most efficient year was before Gil got here. All you are looking at is more minutes and volume shooting. That was not his best year. 02-'03 was. He shot .282 from 3 the year you are talking about. Yeah. He got paid. Buy some idiots. Lucky they weren't us.

You posted A number. The other numbers say...per minute...
Hughes had the same amount of turnovers and fouls yet more assists, steals, rebounds, and free throws.
His PER went from a pedestrian 15.5 to a borderline all-star-like 21.6.
He led the league in steals.
He went from a 101/104 o/d rating to a 110/104 o/d rating.
His on/off went from -0.1 to +6.2

and of course... his TS% was actually higher in '05 than '03. .

No, I posted links to lots of numbers. Here are more.

02/03 Not Gil. Hughes was TS .521 eFG .487 AST% 17.5 ORth 101 FG% .467
03/04 with Gil Hughes was TS .496 eFG .437 AST% 14.3 ORth 101 FG% .397

His PER went up because he chucked more. His usage went up a lot. His WS was almost the same 3.7 vs 3.8

[Brenice]

There is a whole lot more to basketball than just stats.

[Kanyewest]

I already proved my point. I posted the numbers. His most efficient year was before Gil got here. All you are looking at is more minutes and volume shooting. That was not his best year. 02-'03 was. He shot .282 from 3 the year you are talking about. Yeah. He got paid. Buy some idiots. Lucky they weren't us.

You posted A number. The other numbers say...per minute...
Hughes had the same amount of turnovers and fouls yet more assists, steals, rebounds, and free throws.
His PER went from a pedestrian 15.5 to a borderline all-star-like 21.6.
He led the league in steals.
He went from a 101/104 o/d rating to a 110/104 o/d rating.
His on/off went from -0.1 to +6.2

and of course... his TS% was actually higher in '05 than '03. .

No, I posted links to lots of numbers. Here are more.

02/03 Not Gil. Hughes was TS .521 eFG .487 AST% 17.5 ORth 101 FG% .467
03/04 with Gil Hughes was TS .496 eFG .437 AST% 14.3 ORth 101 FG% .397

His PER went up because he chucked more. His usage went up a lot. His WS was almost the same 3.7 vs 3.8

Comparing those two seasons is comparing apple and oranges.

In 2002-03
- Hughes played point guard
- The Wizards ran a slow methodical offense
- Was the 4th option behind Jordan/Stackhouse/Laetner

In 2003-2004
- Hughes played shooting guard
- The Wizards were rebuilding playing rookies like Blake and Hayes, and other young guys like Brown, Haywood, and Jeffries in order to develop them instead of winning games
- Eddie Jordan's 1st year introducing the Princeton offense
- Arenas suffered an abdominal strain- missed 27 games, and when he did return, he did play injured. He only recovered fully the next season.

I would be curious to see what Hughes numbers looked like with and without Arenas during the 2003-04 season.

[SirCharles3434]

6 straight games of 20 or more points for Wall. He better make the All Star team.

[hands11]

You posted A number. The other numbers say...per minute...
Hughes had the same amount of turnovers and fouls yet more assists, steals, rebounds, and free throws.
His PER went from a pedestrian 15.5 to a borderline all-star-like 21.6.
He led the league in steals.
He went from a 101/104 o/d rating to a 110/104 o/d rating.
His on/off went from -0.1 to +6.2

and of course... his TS% was actually higher in '05 than '03. .

No, I posted links to lots of numbers. Here are more.

02/03 Not Gil. Hughes was TS .521 eFG .487 AST% 17.5 ORth 101 FG% .467
03/04 with Gil Hughes was TS .496 eFG .437 AST% 14.3 ORth 101 FG% .397

His PER went up because he chucked more. His usage went up a lot. His WS was almost the same 3.7 vs 3.8

Comparing those two seasons is comparing apple and oranges.

In 2002-03
- Hughes played point guard
- The Wizards ran a slow methodical offense
- Was the 4th option behind Jordan/Stackhouse/Laetner

In 2003-2004
- Hughes played shooting guard
- The Wizards were rebuilding playing rookies like Blake and Hayes, and other young guys like Brown, Haywood, and Jeffries in order to develop them instead of winning games
- Eddie Jordan's 1st year introducing the Princeton offense
- Arenas suffered an abdominal strain- missed 27 games, and when he did return, he did play injured. He only recovered fully the next season.

I would be curious to see what Hughes numbers looked like with and without Arenas during the 2003-04 season.

Its almost always comparing apples and oranges in some way. The year after, Hughes was coming into prime age and he was also playing for a contract. Among other things.

But you make a good point. Hughes was another hybrid SG/PG type. He created his own offense a lot of the time. And he would steal the ball which created his offense. Like TA does at time.

Another way of thinking about this is, how much better does Kyrie make other players?

Now Wall, I think its pretty clear he makes players around him better. Good PGs usually do that. Shoot first SGs playing PG, not as much. TA wouldn't be having the year he is having without a Wall type PG and one of Beal and Webster as shooting threats to help open the floor.

[JWizmentality]

I know the NBA loves fan involvement, but Allstar voting needs to be taken away.

Sent from my LG-VM696 using Tapatalk 2

[tontoz]

Checking out the Bynum situation i have seen a lot of Cavs fans pretty down on Irving. They say guys don't like playing with him because he is more interested in showing off than winning games. Nothing we didn't know but interesting to hear it from Cavs fans, some of whom though Irving was way better than Wall.

[JWizmentality]

Checking out the Bynum situation i have seen a lot of Cavs fans pretty down on Irving. They say guys don't like playing with him because he is more interested in showing off than winning games. Nothing we didn't know but interesting to hear it from Cavs fans, some of whom though Irving was way better than Wall.

They still think he''s better than Wall. The mere suggestion that they are on par or that Wall is slightly better will get you flamed. Kyrie >>>>>>>Wall and it aint even close and all that jazz.

Then again, it's freakin Cleveland, what do you expect.

[Youheardme90]

I don`t really think it`s close between John and Kyrie. Kyrie can score, and that's just about it. He doesn`t really run an offense, play any defense or make his teammates better in anyway.

[nuposse04]

I don`t really think it`s close between John and Kyrie. Kyrie can score, and that's just about it. He doesn`t really run an offense, play any defense or make his teammates better in anyway.

The thing is, while kyrie is a Better shooter, he isnt a considerably better scorer imo. He scores like 2-3 more points à game more.

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[Illmatic21]

Irving is a considerably better scorer. Wall can't even create a clean look for himself half the time.

The difference is that Wall is a considerably better point guard. He has a higher bball IQ and a deeper understanding of the game. That's going to lead to greater success over time, because he has the focus to understand how to successfully run a team from the PG position.

If you're going to play point guard, it doesn't matter how great of a scorer you are if you don't have the mentality of a point guard. You have to WANT to be a point guard. Kyrie is Gilbert all over again.

[Illuminaire]

So far this season the gap between Wall and Irving has not been anything close to 'considerable'. Irving looks smoother out there but his actual production has only been a little bit better.

The rest I would agree with, except for the Gil comparison at the end. Prime Gilbert was a much more efficient scorer on even higher volume. Now, by age, Kyrie is certainly doing well compared to Arenas... but he's also had significant injury issues and is having a down year. I'm not at all certain that Irving will improve much from what he is today, and without a sizable leap in his free throw rate and TS% he's not going to come close to Gil's peak.