John Wall is the best PG in the East right now

[dobrojim]

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 29.6
2. Kevin Love-MIN 28.7
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 28.3
4. Chris Paul-LAC 27.3
5. Anthony Davis-NOP 27.2
6. DeMarcus Cousins-SAC 26.8
7. Paul George-IND 24.0
8. Carmelo Anthony-NYK 23.7
9. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 23.4
10. Stephen Curry-GSW 23.3
11. Isaiah Thomas-SAC 22.7
12. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 22.6
13. Dwyane Wade-MIA 22.6
14. Al Horford-ATL 22.3
15. Jordan Hill-LAL 22.3
16. Dwight Howard-HOU 22.2
17. Andre Drummond-DET 21.9
18. Russell Westbrook-OKC 21.3
19. Blake Griffin-LAC 21.1
20. John Wall-WAS 20.9

all of which goes to show that PER isn't that great a statistic

re-order this list on per game ability to carry a team to wins and Wall is
not 20th on the list behind guys like Isaiah Thomas

[Illmatic21]

This word, "scorer", keeps getting thrown around. Perhaps someone should define it.

Because when you say "scorer" I think the number of points scored, and the efficiency with which they are accumulated. By that definition Irving is not a much better scorer this season. I don't mean to presume any elses' perspective, but I suspect there is some observational bias based on how slick Irving's moves are. He just LOOKS great out there, crossing people over and smoothly elevating to shoot.

Results matter more than form though. Currently I'm not seeing a huge divergence in results between March 2013->This Season Wall and Kyrie Irving.

Irving's career TS% is .551 and his career eFG% is .501. Wall's career TS% is .508 and his career eFG% is .437. You're really trying to argue that there isn't a significant difference there?

Do the numbers look close so far this year? Yes, they do. But Irving is in a slump (relative to his career production), and he's playing under a coach who is notable for causing offensive stagnation wherever he goes. Wall is in a more efficient offense with better spacing and ball movement, and he is a superior playmaker which opens up more scoring opportunities for himself. You have to take context (and sample size) into account when looking at stats.

For his career, Irving has had 2 out of 3 efficient scoring seasons. Wall has had 0 out of 4. I'm not bashing Wall, I'm simply stating the truth.

[Dat2U]

This word, "scorer", keeps getting thrown around. Perhaps someone should define it.

Because when you say "scorer" I think the number of points scored, and the efficiency with which they are accumulated. By that definition Irving is not a much better scorer this season. I don't mean to presume any elses' perspective, but I suspect there is some observational bias based on how slick Irving's moves are. He just LOOKS great out there, crossing people over and smoothly elevating to shoot.

Results matter more than form though. Currently I'm not seeing a huge divergence in results between March 2013->This Season Wall and Kyrie Irving.

Irving's career TS% is .551 and his career eFG% is .501. Wall's career TS% is .508 and his career eFG% is .437. You're really trying to argue that there isn't a significant difference there?

Do the numbers look close so far this year? Yes, they do. But Irving is in a slump (relative to his career production), and he's playing under a coach who is notable for causing offensive stagnation wherever he goes. Wall is in a more efficient offense with better spacing and ball movement, and he is a superior playmaker which opens up more scoring opportunities for himself. You have to take context (and sample size) into account when looking at stats.

For his career, Irving has had 2 out of 3 efficient scoring seasons. Wall has had 0 out of 4. I'm not bashing Wall, I'm simply stating the truth.

Problem is Irving has actually been in like a 10 month slump. He was great to start off the 2012-13 season but struggled mightily after the all-star break as Wall was beginning his ascent. His play now is no different from how it was before he got hurt last year.

[RSCD3_]

Jordan is not better than Splitter
The thing the Clippers are lacking is experience and chemistry.
Offensively yes, Parker is better than Paul, but in the end I will go with Paul, I like Parker better, but Paul is a more complete player.
Anyway it's close, right now PG rankings could look like...

Paul
Parker
Westbrook
Curry
Wall
Lillard
Irving
Lawson

The rest are far below at this point.

Id add conley to this list (not at the top though) great defense and good passing abilities along his wicked floaters, layups and his nice 3 point shooting. Imo he is a more defensively gifted player that offense is not behind lawson

Sent from my SCH-I800 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Illmatic21]

This word, "scorer", keeps getting thrown around. Perhaps someone should define it.

Because when you say "scorer" I think the number of points scored, and the efficiency with which they are accumulated. By that definition Irving is not a much better scorer this season. I don't mean to presume any elses' perspective, but I suspect there is some observational bias based on how slick Irving's moves are. He just LOOKS great out there, crossing people over and smoothly elevating to shoot.

Results matter more than form though. Currently I'm not seeing a huge divergence in results between March 2013->This Season Wall and Kyrie Irving.

Irving's career TS% is .551 and his career eFG% is .501. Wall's career TS% is .508 and his career eFG% is .437. You're really trying to argue that there isn't a significant difference there?

Do the numbers look close so far this year? Yes, they do. But Irving is in a slump (relative to his career production), and he's playing under a coach who is notable for causing offensive stagnation wherever he goes. Wall is in a more efficient offense with better spacing and ball movement, and he is a superior playmaker which opens up more scoring opportunities for himself. You have to take context (and sample size) into account when looking at stats.

For his career, Irving has had 2 out of 3 efficient scoring seasons. Wall has had 0 out of 4. I'm not bashing Wall, I'm simply stating the truth.

Problem is Irving has actually been in like a 10 month slump. He was great to start off the 2012-13 season but struggled mightily after the all-star break as Wall was beginning his ascent. His play now is no different from how it was before he got hurt last year.

Maybe so, but I'd rather wait until the season plays out before assessing his final numbers. He's 'slumping' yet still has a 20+ PER on the season, it's not like he turned into Brandon Jennings. Of course PER favors volume scorers and doesn't factor in defense, but still.

And Irving is averaging 25/6 on 46.5% FG, 41.9% 3pt over the last month. I'd say he's coming out of his slump scoring-wise.

[nuposse04]

I would rather Wall not start the all star game this way, but Kyrie apparently heard a "pop" today

http://news.rotowire.com/Kyrie-Irving-g ... -spnba.htm

hopefully Kyrie isn't seriously injured.

[Illuminaire]

Because when you say "scorer" I think the number of points scored, and the efficiency with which they are accumulated. By that definition Irving is not a much better scorer this season.

Irving's career TS% is .551 and his career eFG% is .501. Wall's career TS% is .508 and his career eFG% is .437. You're really trying to argue that there isn't a significant difference there?

Emphasis mine. Are you seriously trying to add to my argument in order to make yours look better?

Do the numbers look close so far this year? Yes, they do. But Irving is in a slump (relative to his career production), and he's playing under a coach who is notable for causing offensive stagnation wherever he goes. Wall is in a more efficient offense with better spacing and ball movement,

A long slump interposed by injuries. Sucks for him, but it's something that can't be easily glossed over. The gap has closed - at least for now.

and he is a superior playmaker which opens up more scoring opportunities for himself. You have to take context (and sample size) into account when looking at stats.

Wait, so Wall's ability to generate points for himself isn't part of being a scorer? What. The. Hell. Are. You. Saying.

[Illmatic21]

Because when you say "scorer" I think the number of points scored, and the efficiency with which they are accumulated. By that definition Irving is not a much better scorer this season.

Irving's career TS% is .551 and his career eFG% is .501. Wall's career TS% is .508 and his career eFG% is .437. You're really trying to argue that there isn't a significant difference there?

Emphasis mine. Are you seriously trying to add to my argument in order to make yours look better?

Okay, so Irving is not a much better scorer than Wall over 1/4 of a season. Doesn't mean he isn't the better scorer. We can look at a larger sample size over their respective careers and see that he is in fact, a markedly better scorer.

Do the numbers look close so far this year? Yes, they do. But Irving is in a slump (relative to his career production), and he's playing under a coach who is notable for causing offensive stagnation wherever he goes. Wall is in a more efficient offense with better spacing and ball movement,

A long slump interposed by injuries. Sucks for him, but it's something that can't be easily glossed over. The gap has closed - at least for now.

The gap has closed? You can't even make that argument because Irving isn't really slumping anymore.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_ ... rie-irving

Irving averaged 25ppg on 46.5% shooting (and 42% from three on nearly 6 attempts) over the month of December. Wall has never had an equal scoring month to that in his career, feel free to look it up yourself. So how has the gap closed again?

and he is a superior playmaker which opens up more scoring opportunities for himself. You have to take context (and sample size) into account when looking at stats.

Wait, so Wall's ability to generate points for himself isn't part of being a scorer? What. The. Hell. Are. You. Saying.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I meant was that teams have to play Wall for the pass (because of his individual passing ability, and also because of his team's superior spacing and shooting), which gives him more space to look for his own shot.

Irving isn't as much of a playmaking threat, particularly in crunch time when everyone knows he isn't going to pass. This means he gets a lot more individual defensive attention on a regular basis. It's significantly harder to score when facing double-and-triple teams on a regular basis. Does this make sense?

[stevemcqueen1]

Sucks about Irving's knee. Wizards fans can sympathize. PGs in the East are dropping like flies.

Illmatic, your last argument gets incoherent. You're saying Wall gets himself better scoring opportunities because he's a better playmaker, but that he's not as good a scorer in part because... he's a better offensive player and he's harder to defend? Eh...

You could extend that kind of reasoning to make claims like, "Wall isn't as good a scorer because he's a better defender and gets more fast break opportunities as a result."

I think there are ways that Wall is a better scorer than Irving and vice versa. On the whole, I think Irving is a bigger volume scorer almost entirely because he's a much better long range jump shooter, particularly from 3.

[Illuminaire]

Quick note: Sorry for getting snippy last post. I do that when I'm tired, and it's a personal failing.

Ok, back to discussion. Your last point is interesting, but strikes me as flawed. It seems like you are saying that Wall should not get credit for his scoring volume/efficiency because his skillset makes it easier to get off decent shots. That's a meaningless point to make, because skills that allow one to get off better shots are necessarily part of being a scorer by any reasonable definition.

Second, you bring up the team context. OK? The Wizards are not an offensive power house, so it's not as if pace or scheme are making a huge impact in Wall's production. If you truly believe that is the case please show some evidence for it. I will retort that when it comes to spacing, Wall is as much a creator of it as a beneficiary - both Webster and Ariza have had career shooting years playing with Wall. To me, that says a great deal about which effect is the chicken and which is the egg.

Lastly I will respond to the first two arguments from your last post:
1. Trends matter. One is trending up, the other is trending down. It's fair to argue whether those trends will continue and where they will end up, but most of us here are talking about the present. I do believe in informing ourselves in the now based on past context. In Irving's case he played poorly the second half of last season as well, while in Wall's case he played very well in the second half.

Injuries may be the determining factor in both cases. I'm quite open to that argument. I think you should be more open to the possibility that Irving's constant injuries are having a cumulative negative effect on his game; it's happened before.

2. You mean other than March 2013? That's when John scored 22pts/game on .484 shooting and earned 7.1 trips to the FT line per game. (He also shot .455 from three point range, though he didn't take nearly the volume that Irving does.)

When Wall had to take more shots in April (due to injured teammates) his shooting percentage dipped, but he scored 24pts/game on similar overall efficiency by getting to the free throw line almost nine times a game.

So yes, I would say they have had comparable stretches in their career.

[Illuminaire]

Sucks about Irving's knee. Wizards fans can sympathize. PGs in the East are dropping like flies.

Illmatic, your last argument gets incoherent. You're saying Wall gets himself better scoring opportunities because he's a better playmaker, but that he's not as good a scorer in part because... he's a better offensive player and he's harder to defend? Eh...

You could extend that kind of reasoning to make claims like, "Wall isn't as good a scorer because he's a better defender and gets more fast break opportunities as a result."

I think there are ways that Wall is a better scorer than Irving and vice versa. On the whole, I think Irving is a bigger volume scorer almost entirely because he's a much better long range jump shooter, particularly from 3.

^
I agree with all this.

[hands11]

I'm starting to get a strange feeling. Hard to put into words but, if they are actually going to be winning games at a .500 or better pace, breaking 10 year losing streaks, beating DET on back to backs, Wall looking legit, Otto showing sign of being legit ... I don't know. It just feels weird. Not sure how to act. lol

I was all pumped about hoping they could get here and projecting how. The struggle was part of the bound. Its going to take some getting used to.

I guess there is always worrying about how its all going to fall apart.

Its just between the Skins and the Wizards, its been so long since they have been legitimately good. Skins looked like they had the lead last year. Now the door is wide open for the Wizards to be the lead team. Snyder and Ted battling it out. Who will win ? I don't know. Edge might have to go to Ted at this point.

[stevemcqueen1]

^
I agree with all this.

I like your first point in particular. If you've got a skill that makes you harder to defend and gets you good shots, then it's part of your overall scoring repertoire.

A scoring repertoire could really be defined as just the sum of all the skills that lead to a player being able to put up points himself. But that involves a complex array of skills that tie into all different facets of the game when you go situation by situation. If a guy is good at playing the passing lanes or getting strip steals and speeding down the court for fast break finishes at the rim, that's part of his ability as a scorer even though the thing that triggered the whole thing was initially a defensive skill. If a guy can break down 1s on 2s and/or 3s in transition to score or get fouled, that's part of it too. I mention those specifically because those are two ways that John is a better scorer than Kyrie. There are others too.

[Brenice]

The thread should be titled 'John Wall is the best PG in the East PERIOD.

Rose, Williams, and Rondo shouldn't be gifted as better based on 2 or 3 years ago. Them regaining their form is doubtful. This ain't the All star game where you are voted in based on favoritism or career status. We talking about this season. Kyrie has weaknesses bigger than Wall's shooting.

Wall is who he thinks he is. The best PG in the East.

[Illmatic21]

Quick note: Sorry for getting snippy last post. I do that when I'm tired, and it's a personal failing.

Ok, back to discussion. Your last point is interesting, but strikes me as flawed. It seems like you are saying that Wall should not get credit for his scoring volume/efficiency because his skillset makes it easier to get off decent shots. That's a meaningless point to make, because skills that allow one to get off better shots are necessarily part of being a scorer by any reasonable definition.

Second, you bring up the team context. OK? The Wizards are not an offensive power house, so it's not as if pace or scheme are making a huge impact in Wall's production. If you truly believe that is the case please show some evidence for it. I will retort that when it comes to spacing, Wall is as much a creator of it as a beneficiary - both Webster and Ariza have had career shooting years playing with Wall. To me, that says a great deal about which effect is the chicken and which is the egg.

Lastly I will respond to the first two arguments from your last post:
1. Trends matter. One is trending up, the other is trending down. It's fair to argue whether those trends will continue and where they will end up, but most of us here are talking about the present. I do believe in informing ourselves in the now based on past context. In Irving's case he played poorly the second half of last season as well, while in Wall's case he played very well in the second half.

Injuries may be the determining factor in both cases. I'm quite open to that argument. I think you should be more open to the possibility that Irving's constant injuries are having a cumulative negative effect on his game; it's happened before.

2. You mean other than March 2013? That's when John scored 22pts/game on .484 shooting and earned 7.1 trips to the FT line per game. (He also shot .455 from three point range, though he didn't take nearly the volume that Irving does.)

When Wall had to take more shots in April (due to injured teammates) his shooting percentage dipped, but he scored 24pts/game on similar overall efficiency by getting to the free throw line almost nine times a game.

So yes, I would say they have had comparable stretches in their career.

I figured you were going to bring up the March 2013 stretch. I don't think it's comparable to the month Irving just had STRICTLY talking about scoring. Wall was shooting well and getting to the line a lot, but Irving in December averaged more points than Wall ever has (at 26ppg) and more importantly, was much better from beyond the arc.


I agree with all of your praise about Wall, but personally I am simply not going to give him a pass by pretending he's as refined a scorer as Kyrie Irving. I'm not just talking about stats (even though I brought up stats from Irving's first two seasons clearly showing him to be a superior scorer, which didn't seem to matter to you).. I'm talking about a player's on-court, actual skillset and the ease/variety with which they are able to score the basketball.

Just go on Youtube and watch any one of Irving's extensive highlight videos, he displays a scoring skillset that is obviously beyond what Wall has shown us to this point. He can shoot the three, finish at the rim, shoot off the dribble, and even has some effective post moves against smaller defenders. If your opinion from watching Irving and Wall play (and reviewing the stats) is that they are 'comparable' scorers.. I'd have to question whether your bias is playing into your assessment.


Even though Wall is on my favorite team and I want him to do well, I can respect skill when I see it, and Irving clearly has a preternatural level of skill as a scorer for his age. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Becoming a great scorer takes work. A lot of it. Kyrie Irving has clearly put in an obsessive amount of work on his scoring skillset from a very young age, and it has resulted in him becoming a great scorer at the highest level of basketball.

John coming back after one summer and being able to make elbow jumpers at a league average rate doesn't make him a refined scorer. He has a long way to go, and I think we're cheating ourselves as basketball fans by not respecting the process it will take him to get there. He has a lot of work to do on his three-point shooting, becoming more crafty off the dribble, etc before I'd call him an equal scorer to Irving. Just my opinion.

The one thing we can agree on is that John is making a lot of progress as a scorer, and it's extremely encouraging

[Brenice]

I agree with all of your praise about Wall, but personally I am simply not going to give him a pass by pretending he's as refined a scorer as Kyrie Irving. I'm not just talking about stats (even though I brought up stats from Irving's first two seasons clearly showing him to be a superior scorer, which didn't seem to matter to you).. I'm talking about a player's on-court, actual skillset and the ease/variety with which they are able to score the basketball.

Just go on Youtube and watch any one of Irving's extensive highlight videos, he displays a scoring skillset that is obviously beyond what Wall has shown us to this point. He can shoot the three, finish at the rim, shoot off the dribble, and even has some effective post moves against smaller defenders. If your opinion from watching Irving and Wall play (and reviewing the stats) is that they are 'comparable' scorers.. I'd have to question whether your bias is playing into your assessment.

Even though Wall is on my favorite team and I want him to do well, I can respect skill when I see it, and Irving clearly has a preternatural level of skill as a scorer for his age. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Becoming a great scorer takes work. A lot of it. Kyrie Irving has clearly put in an obsessive amount of work on his scoring skillset from a very young age, and it has resulted in him becoming a great scorer at the highest level of basketball.

John coming back after one summer and being able to make elbow jumpers at a league average rate doesn't make him a refined scorer. He has a long way to go, and I think we're cheating ourselves as basketball fans by not respecting the process it will take him to get there. He has a lot of work to do on his three-point shooting, becoming more crafty off the dribble, etc before I'd call him an equal scorer to Irving. Just my opinion.

The one thing we can agree on is that John is making a lot of progress as a scorer, and it's extremely encouraging

I agree totally. Irving is a much better SHOOTING guard than John Wall. But in terms of the topic, John is the better Point guard. The league though is trending towards combo guards and if you would compare them as combo guards, Wall would be better than Kyrie. Wall is a better basketball player than Kyrie. Kyrie has better scoring ability than every PG in the world. Better scorer than CP3 too. But we talking about PG's.

Maybe we should start a thread comparing Kyrie to any shooting guard around the league.

[TheKingOfVa360]

I agree with all of your praise about Wall, but personally I am simply not going to give him a pass by pretending he's as refined a scorer as Kyrie Irving. I'm not just talking about stats (even though I brought up stats from Irving's first two seasons clearly showing him to be a superior scorer, which didn't seem to matter to you).. I'm talking about a player's on-court, actual skillset and the ease/variety with which they are able to score the basketball.

Just go on Youtube and watch any one of Irving's extensive highlight videos, he displays a scoring skillset that is obviously beyond what Wall has shown us to this point. He can shoot the three, finish at the rim, shoot off the dribble, and even has some effective post moves against smaller defenders. If your opinion from watching Irving and Wall play (and reviewing the stats) is that they are 'comparable' scorers.. I'd have to question whether your bias is playing into your assessment.

Even though Wall is on my favorite team and I want him to do well, I can respect skill when I see it, and Irving clearly has a preternatural level of skill as a scorer for his age. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Becoming a great scorer takes work. A lot of it. Kyrie Irving has clearly put in an obsessive amount of work on his scoring skillset from a very young age, and it has resulted in him becoming a great scorer at the highest level of basketball.

John coming back after one summer and being able to make elbow jumpers at a league average rate doesn't make him a refined scorer. He has a long way to go, and I think we're cheating ourselves as basketball fans by not respecting the process it will take him to get there. He has a lot of work to do on his three-point shooting, becoming more crafty off the dribble, etc before I'd call him an equal scorer to Irving. Just my opinion.

The one thing we can agree on is that John is making a lot of progress as a scorer, and it's extremely encouraging

I agree totally. Irving is a much better SHOOTING guard than John Wall. But in terms of the topic, John is the better Point guard. The league though is trending towards combo guards and if you would compare them as combo guards, Wall would be better than Kyrie. Wall is a better basketball player than Kyrie. Kyrie has better scoring ability than every PG in the world. Better scorer than CP3 too. But we talking about PG's.

Maybe we should start a thread comparing Kyrie to any shooting guard around the league.

Kyrie would be sick if they would bring in an old school big PG like Eric Snow. When Iverson moved to SG his game went to another level. Irving has proven he isn't much of a PG and is a defensive liability. The Cavs coaching staff should play to his strengths (ball handling, shooting, and scorer) instead of forcing him to run the offense.

[Brenice]

Kyrie would be sick if they would bring in an old school big PG like Eric Snow. When Iverson moved to SG his game went to another level. Irving has proven he isn't much of a PG and is a defensive liability. The Cavs coaching staff should play to his strengths (ball handling, shooting, and scorer) instead of forcing him to run the offense.

I was thinking they could have drafted Carter-Williams to pair with Kyrie.

[dandridge 10]

Anybody else notice that Wall is not always on the same page as Wittman when it comes to post-game remarks on losses? I have noticed it before and it happened again last night. Wittman attributed the loss to selfish play and Wall disputed it. It is worth watching to see if this continues as it may demonstrate that the star PG and the coach are not on the same page.

For what it is worth, I have generally agreed with Wittman in his post-game remarks after losses. While you might question why Wittman was unable to cure the problems he identified during the game, I rarely disagree with his post-game diagnosis on why the Wizards lost. You have to wonder if part of the Wizard's problems this year is that the leaders of the team are not willing to acknowledge their deficiencies and doing what it takes to correct them. Or, Wittman is just not the right coach to get it through their thick heads. In either case, its very concerning.

[dangermouse]

Watching the Warriors game today, man if Wall got the same calls that Curry gets when driving the lane, Wall would be averaging 25+.