ATFL Eastern: (2) Narigo vs. (7) MisterHibachi

[MisterHibachi]

This is the thread for the match up of seeds 2 and 7 in the Eastern Conference of the All-Time Fantasy League.

General Discussion in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1293300
Draft was in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1294562
Playoff results in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299878

Eastern Conference Quarterfinals: (2) Narigo vs. (7) MisterHibachi

(1) Narigo
1. Michael Jordan (90-92)
2. Marques Johnson (80-82)
3. Jack Sikma (82-84)
4. Bobby Jones (80-82)
5. Ben Wallace (02-04)
6. Michael Cooper (86-88)
7. LaMarcus Aldridge (12-14)
8. Kyle Korver (12-14)
9. Bryon Scott (87-89)
10. Kirk Hinrich (05-07)

(7) MisterHibachi
1. Dwyane Wade (09-11)
2. Moses Malone (81-83)
3. Shawn Marion (05-07)
4. Carmelo Anthony (12-14)
5. Andre Iguodala (11-13)
6. Mark Eaton (85-87)
7. Serge Ibaka (12-14)
8. Deron Williams (08-10)
9. Jason Richardson (08-10)
10. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf (93-95)

Judges
bastillon: Narigo
TMACFORMVP: Narigo
penbeast0: MisterHibachi
ronnymac2: MisterHibachi
Doctor MJ: Narigo
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: Narigo
therealbig3: Narigo

In each match up, GMs will offer their preliminary strategy for beating the other team and reasons for why their team is stronger. GMs will also have the opportunity to respond to the opponent's strategy. Judges will offer any comments and questions they have of the GMs and finally will cast their vote for whichever team they think is stronger simply by saying 'Team A wins this matchup' or 'Team B wins this matchup'. Whoever gets more votes moves on.

Good luck!

[MisterHibachi]

Alright I am facing Michael Jordan, that'll be a tough one.

My starters are the following:
PG: Deron Williams 08-10
SG: Dwyane Wade 09-11
SF: Carmelo Anthony 12-14
PF: Shawn Marion 05-07
C: Moses Malone 81-83

Bench:

PG: Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf 93-95
SG: Jason Richardson 08-10
SF: Andre Iguodala 11-13
PF: Serge Ibaka 12-14
C: Mark Eaton 85-87

I'm gonna play Wade and Moses the most minutes. Wade will play the whole first quarter, with Moses and Deron going to the bench at around the 3 minute mark, for Eaton and Iguodala. In this lineup, Wade and Iguodala will share ball handling responsibilities. Wade, Melo and Marion will rest in the second, with Eaton, Deron, J-Rich, Iguodala and Ibaka playing the beginning of the second. Moses will come back with 8 minutes left in the quarter for Eaton, and Wade, Melo and Marion will return 2 minutes later.

I'll talk about my defense:

My primary defender on Jordan, who is undoubtably the greatest offensive threat on Narigo's team, will be Wade. He was a terrific defender in the years I have chosen for him, those being 09-11, as evidenced by the fact that he came in 3rd in DPOY voting in 2009 and top 10 in 2010. He was voted to the 2nd team all defensive in both 2009 and 2010, and it arguable that he deserved 1st team both years.

Wade, however, will not be the only defender on Jordan. He will start off on him, but Marion and Iguodala will also take turns on Jordan to keep them all fresh while showing Jordan different looks. Those 3 are extremely athletic and very versatile players, one of the best combination of players to throw at a superstar wing. My wing defense is probably the best in the entire league due to its athleticism and its speed and versatility.

My all defense lineup, whenever the situation arises, which is:

C: Eaton (97 (league leading), 100, 100 DRtg)
PF: Ibaka (98, 101, 100)
SF: Marion (101, 100, 100)
SG: Iguodala (104, 98, 105)
PG: Wade (105, 103, 102)

That lineup will be used situationally, mostly when I have severe need of a defensive stop. 3 players in that lineup can guard Jordan, who will no doubt be getting the ball in last shot situations, and do as best a job as anyone can, not to mention the two defensive anchors I would have behind them to provide help (Eaton and Ibaka).

Marion will be starting off on LaMarcus Aldridge and I have no doubt will be able to limit him due to his own length and quickness. Ibaka will take over duties on Aldridge when Marion sits on the bench.

Eaton and Ibaka will lock down the paint for me off the bench. Narigo will need extremely hot shooting from his bench to score points on my bench and Ben Wallace off the bench for Narigo I think will be a huge disadvantage for him on offense. I'm going to keep one of Wade, Moses, Melo or Deron on the floor at all times and that will allow my offense to flow, while locking down on defense.

I think offensively and defensively, my bench has a huge advantage in this match up.

For my offense:

My first option on offense is Dwyane Wade, second is Moses, then Carmelo.

Deron will be my primary ball handler, with Wade the secondary when Deron goes to the bench. I think I have a matchup advantage at point guard, with Deron being a big guard able to post up and run a variety of plays, including pick and roll.

Carmelo will be mostly utilized in the same role as he was in the Olympics: he will be a spot up shooter (with occasional post ups and isolations) and he is deadly in that role (he shot 33%, 38%, and is shooting 42% from 3PT in the 3 seasons I chose for him). It also eliminates the tendency of ball sticking that is usual in his New York offense. He is most deadly in that offense when Felton/Chandler run pick and roll and he spots up on the weak side with Chandler diving to the rim. Moses and Ibaka (at rim %: 70, 73, 74) will mostly be the screeners and they will perform just as well, if not better than Chandler in the role.

If Jordan guards Wade on defense, then I will run multiple pick and rolls with Wade to make him work on defense and hopefully tire him out. Carmelo will be spotting up off any pick and rolls. I'm gonna limit Moses post ups, as post ups aren't really the optimal offense imo, especially since Moses isn't one of the few big men who can dominate an offense that way. He will be featured in pick and rolls with Wade and Deron, which also allows him to dive in for offensive rebounds, his biggest strength.

Abdul-Rauf is my 10th man and will likely not see a lot of minutes unless in garbage time or foul trouble to my other 5 guards. Jason Richardson is a nice scoring punch of the bench: he averaged 21.8, 16.8 and 15.7 ppg in the 3 seasons I chose for him. He's a deadly 3 point shooter, shooting 40% (7.3 attempts/game), 40% (4.5) and 39% (5.1) in those 3 seasons.

My all offense lineup, in circumstances where I will need a score at any cost will be:

PG: Deron (118, 116, 166 ORtg); (59, 57, 57 TS%); (40, 31, 37 3PT%)
SG: Wade (115, 113, 114 ORtg); (57, 56, 58 TS%)
SF: Jason Richardson (109, 115, 116 ORtg); (55, 57, 57 TS%); (40, 40, 39 3PT%)
PF: Carmelo (106, 112, 112 ORtg); (53, 56, 55 TS%); (34, 37, 42 3PT%)
C: Moses (115, 118, 116 ORtg); (59, 58, 58 TS%)

That lineup will have deadly 3 point shooting in Deron, J-rich and Melo, along with a deadly pick and roll player in Wade who can create a good shot a moment's notice. Last shot situations go to either Melo or Wade, depending on the flow of the game. Both are great clutch players who can deliver when asked upon, not to mention Moses' supernatural ability to grab offensive boards. I really don't think Narigo has a chance at stopping my offense, either off my bench or from my starters.

He has the best player in the matchup and in the entire tournament. But I have the second and third best player by a wide margin. I think that gives me a huge advantage.

[MisterHibachi]

Stats, averaged over 3 years:

PG: Deron Williams 08-10 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ide01.html
226 G, 19.0 PPG, 10.6 AST, 3.3 REB, 1.1 STL, 48% FG, 36% 3PT, 82% FT, 37 MPG
PER: 20.8, TS%: 58.1%, ORtg: 117, DRtg: 109

SG: Dwyane Wade 09-11 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... edw01.html
232 G, 27.5 PPG, 6.2 AST, 5.4 REB, 1.8 STL, 1.2 BLK, 49% FG, 30.1% 3PT, 77% FT, 37 MPG
PER: 28.0, TS%: 57.2%, ORtg: 114, DRtg: 103

SF: Carmelo Anthony 12-14 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... oca01.html
162 G, 26.2 PPG, 7.2 REB, 3.0 AST, 0.9 STL, 44% FG, 38% 3PT, 83% FT, 36.6 MPG
PER: 23.6, TS%: 54.7%, ORtg: 110, DRtg: 106

PF: Shawn Marion 05-07 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... osh01.html
242 G, 19.6 PPG, 11 REB, 2.0 STL, 1.6 BLK, 51% FG, 33% 3PT, 82% FT, 39 MPG
PER: 22.1, TS%: 58.0%, ORtg: 117, DRtg: 100

C: Moses Malone 81-83 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nmo01.html
239 G, 27.8 PPG, 14.9 REB (6.1 OREB), 1.0 STL, 1.8 BLK, 52% FG, 76% FT, 40.0 MPG
PER: 25.7, TS%: 58.0%, ORtg: 116, DRtg: 102

Bench:

PG: Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf 93-95 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lma02.html
234 G, 17.8 PPG, 4.1 AST, 1.0 STL, 46% FG, 36% 3PT, 93% FT, 31.7 MPG
PER: 16.6, TS%: 52.4%, ORtg: 109, DRtg: 109

SG: Jason Richardson 08-10 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... aja01.html
233 G, 18.2 PPG, 5.0 REB, 1.1 STL, 46% FG, 40% 3PT, 75.4% FT, 34.5 MPG
PER: 17.3, TS%: 56.5%, ORtg: 113, DRtg: 110

SF: Andre Iguodala 11-13 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... dan01.html
209 G, 13.2 PPG, 5.7 REB, 5.7 AST, 1.7 STL, 0.6 BLK, 45% FG, 35% 3PT, 63% FT, 35.7 MPG
PER: 16.6, TS%: 52.8%, ORtg: 107, DRtg: 103

PF: Serge Ibaka 12-14 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ase01.html
189 G, 12.1 PPG, 7.9 REB, 3.1 BLK, 55% FG, 73% FT, 30 MPG
PER: 19.1 PER, TS%: 58.2%, ORtg: 115, DRtg: 100

C: Mark Eaton 85-87 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nma01.html
241 G, 8.6 PPG, 9.5 REB, 4.8 BLK, 44 FG%, 66% FT, 33 MPG
PER: 12.3, TS%: 48.4%, ORtg: 94, DRtg: 99

[kayess]

Damn these are all tough.

Narigo built a pretty good team around Jordan (point-forward a la Pippen, shooters, defensive/rebounding bigs), basically an upgraded '96 Bulls, but you can really see how 3 straight rounds of picking last hurt him.

Like that Hibachi can throw different looks at MJ here - Iggy/Wade/Marion + interior D.

But see, to me even if we're spotting MJ a +7 on offense (i.e. GOAT), are his teammates going to be good enough to offset the others? Doesn't seem taht way at first glance, but Narigo must have something up his sleeve...

[Notanoob]

Nagiro can put out an absurd defensive lineup:
Michael Cooper
Michael Jordan
Marques Johnson
Bobby Jones
Ben Wallace

With the exception of Johnson, each of those players comes up regularly as one of the best defenders at their position of all time, and Johnson apparently was no slouch either. Of course, you couldn't really score much with that lineup either, but wow.

[ardee]

Nagiro can put out an absurd defensive lineup:
Michael Cooper
Michael Jordan
Marques Johnson
Bobby Jones
Ben Wallace

With the exception of Johnson, each of those players comes up regularly as one of the best defenders at their position of all time, and Johnson apparently was no slouch either. Of course, you couldn't really score much with that lineup either, but wow.

Hitachi can put out Wade-Iggy-Marion-Ibaka-Eaton and you would definitely score well with that lineup.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[ThunderDan9]

Nagiro can put out an absurd defensive lineup:
Michael Cooper
Michael Jordan
Marques Johnson
Bobby Jones
Ben Wallace

With the exception of Johnson, each of those players comes up regularly as one of the best defenders at their position of all time, and Johnson apparently was no slouch either. Of course, you couldn't really score much with that lineup either, but wow.

That lineeup wouldn't be all too effective in this tournament, though. But still wow.
I will frankly say this: Narigo's picks mostly surpised me during the draft, especially his 2nd pick... his position was not easy though, I felt at #6 how hard it was in the crucial rounds 2-4, he was even more tormented at #1 in return for the opportunity of grabing MJ. But the end result doesn't seem bad at all, I especially liked the Bobby Jones and Byron Scott picks. These were very smart decisions, I think.

And MisterHibachi has this funny (in good terms!) Wade-Igy-Anthony-Marion lineup with Moses Malone in the middle. On a good day, they would just blow out opponents.

I'm looking forward how the match-up goes!

[Texas Chuck]

Hate Melo on MH's team. Lineup looks so much better with Iggy in at SF, but we know Melo would never accept coming off the bench so you have to start him. Id really want to make Wade the offensive focus with Moses the 2nd guy knowing guys like Iggy and Marion can get theirs without needing any sets run for them.

Since you have to start Melo, Id be tempted to also start Ibaka and Chris Jackson and then bring in Deron, Marion, and Iggy at the 6 minute mark with Wade and Ibaka and just overwhelm teams with my athleticism. Counting on Deron and Wade to score when we got caught in the halfcourt. This also gives Wade and Melo more spacing for their iso-ball sets you will be running over and over(whether you want to or not)

[MisterHibachi]

Hate Melo on MH's team. Lineup looks so much better with Iggy in at SF, but we know Melo would never accept coming off the bench so you have to start him. Id really want to make Wade the offensive focus with Moses the 2nd guy knowing guys like Iggy and Marion can get theirs without needing any sets run for them.

Since you have to start Melo, Id be tempted to also start Ibaka and Chris Jackson and then bring in Deron, Marion, and Iggy at the 6 minute mark with Wade and Ibaka and just overwhelm teams with my athleticism. Counting on Deron and Wade to score when we got caught in the halfcourt. This also gives Wade and Melo more spacing for their iso-ball sets you will be running over and over(whether you want to or not)

About Melo, I won't be running the same offensive sets that New York does with him in the iso post. He'll be used off ball mostly as a spot up shooter.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTKcyY9FS2M[/youtube]

Chandler diving in attracts plenty of attention, and Moses/Ibaka/Marion all can attract equivalent attention rolling to the basket. Obviously that's only one play and Miami's defense is unique in its helping scheme. But, I still think spot up 3s will be there for Melo and everyone else (Iggy, Deron, J-Rich) when Wade penetrates into the lane off pick and rolls. Spot up 3s by pretty good 3 point shooters is a pretty good offensive strategy, especially when you have Moses there for offensive rebounds and Wade creating.

It'll be a lot like the Miami offense currently, with better rebounding. Wade is an equal, if not greater, slasher than LeBron and my team's off ball threats are more deadly than Miami's, and they are running a historic offense, will being one of the worst offensive rebounding team of all time, where as I have Moses to take care of that. He averaged 6.2 offensive rebounds per game (!!!!) over the three year stretch from 81-83.

[Quotatious]

About Melo, I won't be running the same offensive sets that New York does with him in the iso post. He'll be used off ball mostly as a spot up shooter.



Chandler diving in attracts plenty of attention, and Moses/Ibaka/Marion all can attract equivalent attention rolling to the basket. Obviously that's only one play and Miami's defense is unique in its helping scheme. But, I still think spot up 3s will be there for Melo and everyone else (Iggy, Deron, J-Rich) when Wade penetrates into the lane off pick and rolls. Spot up 3s by pretty good 3 point shooters is a pretty good offensive strategy, especially when you have Moses there for offensive rebounds and Wade creating.

It'll be a lot like the Miami offense currently, with better rebounding. Wade is an equal, if not greater, slasher than LeBron and my team's off ball threats are more deadly than Miami's, and they are running a historic offense, will being one of the worst offensive rebounding team of all time, where as I have Moses to take care of that. He averaged 6.2 offensive rebounds per game (!!!!) over the three year stretch from 81-83.

Good post, you certainly know your basketball.

However, I think you'll have to give a few ISO plays for Melo to keep him happy. He could be very effective against Marques, taking on him from the elbow. The thing is, Marques can take the same advantage of Melo. I could see them trading blows from there all game long, but I don't think that's what either you or Narigo really want.

[penbeast0]

Hoping to see a post by Narigo -- is he really starting Aldrige? That was his 3rd PF drafted after all.

[Laimbeer]

Key question - are we approaching this like an Olympics style tournament or like these guys are trying to co-exist on a NBA squad, with their fame, fortune, and egos at stake? That makes a big difference in a guy like Melo for me.

[john248]

Key question - are we approaching this like an Olympics style tournament or like these guys are trying to co-exist on a NBA squad, with their fame, fortune, and egos at stake? That makes a big difference in a guy like Melo for me.

My guess is NBA.

[MisterHibachi]

Key question - are we approaching this like an Olympics style tournament or like these guys are trying to co-exist on a NBA squad, with their fame, fortune, and egos at stake? That makes a big difference in a guy like Melo for me.

It's an NBA squad.

[Laimbeer]

I like what MH has done. I like Moses more than most and I think Mike would bring out the best in Wade and he'd do a credible job. I look at Narigo's squad and I'm searching for something beyond Jordan. It's probably the worst 2-10 in the tournament Two of his higher picks - Jones and Wallace - are terrific defenders but just don't do anything on the other end, making it easier to clamp down on Mike.

The only pause I have is how Melo fits - both game and attitude.

[MisterHibachi]

I like what MH has done. I like Moses more than most and I think Mike would bring out the best in Wade and he'd do a credible job. I look at Narigo's squad and I'm searching for something beyond Jordan. It's probably the worst 2-10 in the tournament Two of his higher picks - Jones and Wallace - are terrific defenders but just don't do anything on the other end, making it easier to clamp down on Mike.

The only pause I have is how Melo fits - both game and attitude.

I don't think Melo will be any issue. There's no worries of being 'the highest paid guy on the team' in this league. He showed in the Olympics he's willing to sacrifice to reach a championship. Granted it was the Olympics and not the NBA, but I would argue even his move to New York meant that he was willing to share the spot light. Amare was a legit MVP guy at that point and Melo knew that and still came. Of course, it's probably more cuz of the money but on court, he's willing to share. Melo's role on the team will just be him feasting on open looks with occasional post ups thrown in if needed. He'll get plenty of shots, but they will be good shots.

[Laimbeer]

I'd at least tinker with the idea of Iggy on Mike and Wade on Johnson, who was basically a swingman. It would preserve Wade more for offense and if they go to Johnson more, well, sort of decreases the advantage of having Mike.

[MisterHibachi]

I'd at least tinker with the idea of Iggy on Mike and Wade on Johnson, who was basically a swingman. It would preserve Wade more for offense and if they go to Johnson more, well, sort of decreases the advantage of having Mike.

Definitely. Wade will start on him, but when Iggy comes in late first quarter he'll take over responsibilities on Mike. I'll keep rotating based on match ups and line ups. Whenever Iggy and Wade are both in the game at the same time, Iggy gets first dibs on Mike.

[ardee]

This game is a lot closer than one would think.

Narigo doesn't have the biggest names outside MJ but he has a very complete team with excellent fit and all-around play. The X-factor for him is Bobby Jones. In Jones and Johnson, Narigo can put out a duo that can basically do anything that is needed on a basketball court besides shooting. Two of the very best all-around players you can find with very little lacking in their games.

I think Narigo can absolutely compete - on the perimeter. Jordan, Scott and Johnson vs. Wade, Iggy and Melo would be a great battle. Insane athleticism up and down the perimeter rosters.

Inside, I think, he will have problems. Hibachi doesn't have a dominant two-way big but he does have dominant one-way bigs. Ibaka can take Aldridge without worrying about being pulled out because Eaton/Moses will be inside to cover for him. However, it seems like Hibachi will go small a lot, which is where the problems could arise. If someone like Marion or Melo is on Aldridge, an MJ/Aldridge PnR could be used to take advantage of that. In fact, I see that as one of Narigo's best possible plays.

This is overall a really hard one. Both guys have awesome rotations with tons of players who could be the difference.

There's so many variables. Does Wade, Iggy or Marion guard Jordan when he gets hot? If I'm Hibachi, I try and avoid keeping Wade on Jordan. This is '90-'92 Jordan, the best player ever. You don't want your own best player risking exhaustion. On the other hand, Narigo has Jordan, Jones and Cooper to rotate on Wade and Melo. So many permutations.

I think, at a push, I'll go Hibachi. Insanely close though. I can't do a detailed line-up comparison because there are so many things making a difference but I think Moses will be the ultimate problem here. Hibachi should get him the ball more for this series, because his otherwise explosive perimeter attack is up against the two Michaels and Jones, while Moses is easily the best big man in the series.

[MisterHibachi]

Inside, I think, he will have problems. Hibachi doesn't have a dominant two-way big but he does have dominant one-way bigs. Ibaka can take Aldridge without worrying about being pulled out because Eaton/Moses will be inside to cover for him. However, it seems like Hibachi will go small a lot, which is where the problems could arise. If someone like Marion or Melo is on Aldridge, an MJ/Aldridge PnR could be used to take advantage of that. In fact, I see that as one of Narigo's best possible plays.

I think Marion can do an excellent job on Aldridge. Aldridge doesn't really have a power game, he's more finesse and loves those fadeaways. I'll be willing to live with Marion's length contesting all those jumpers if Narigo goes for that. If they run a pick and roll, I would be willing to switch if Marion is guarding LMA, and Iggy is guarding MJ. Marion is versatile and can do as good a job on MJ as I can ask of anyone on my roster. If they wanna exploit the LMA/Iggy mismatch, I'll live it, because it means Jordan's not the one shooting.

Does Wade, Iggy or Marion guard Jordan when he gets hot?

Iggy gets first dibs, with Marion second, when all 3 are on the court at the same time.

I think Moses will be the ultimate problem here. Hibachi should get him the ball more for this series, because his otherwise explosive perimeter attack is up against the two Michaels and Jones, while Moses is easily the best big man in the series.

Moses will be getting the ball a lot. He was an excellent at drawing fouls and getting easy buckets at the line. He went to the line 10.1 times a game and converted on 76%. That's very good for a centre. Ben Wallace coming to the game works for me because it stifles any spacing Narigo might have and my athleticism/great defenders on the perimeter would be huge in this cases. Also, with Ben Wallace in the game, Eaton doesn't have to leave the paint much and that helps me because Eaton wasn't very mobile.