Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[dckingsfan]

92% to 8% - scoreboard

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm still not a big Marshall fan. He can't defend his on shadow. He's shooting an unsustainable .473 on 3s. He's in D'Antoni's system which means lots of assists and opportunities to score for the PG. Put him anywhere else in the league and it's a lot tougher for him.

That said he's performing a helluva lot better than the current options on the roster. I don't necessarily consider him a real big loss though.

I agree with your scouting report on Marshall, 100%.

I disagree on him not a big loss. System ot not, he's ahead of Magic Johnson's pace on double doubles in his first 12-15 starts for LAL. I think the Wizards had their first round pick value in return from Phoenix. He only needed to back Wall, but because Marshall is deadly from range and he's able to score at the basket; Washington could have played Wall at scoring guard or vice versa. Washington could have played three guards, all 23 and under.

Marshall was a tremendous loss IMO. Every system can use a pure point who can shoot. Kendall Marshall is like Nash in some ways.

Sent from my SGH-M919

[hands11]

So had they draft Len instead, the team could easily look like this..

They could have Alex Len, Wolter and Ryan Kelly and right now. Barbosa was ours to resign. We would not have signed Maynor.

Wall, Wolters, Temple
Beal, Barbosa
TA, Webster
Ves, Booker, Ryan Kelly
Nene, Len, Kevin S

Injured/inactive. Okafor, Singleton - he would have been active to start the year.

They could easily look like this with their first round pick in hand and Okafor's expiring who could get traded or resigned next year for nothing. Not sure the cap could look. 2M less because no Maynor but more for Okafor. Len would cost the same as Otto. Barbosa, Wolters and Kelly would be making less then 1M each. They wouldn't have added AH at 1.3M

They probably would have been worse this year since Barbosa, Len and Kelly all got late starts due to injury and because Gortat is an experienced vet. They could have still done the Gortat trade. In that case they would have also had a chance to add Kendall if they wanted.

Wall, Wolters, Temple
Beal, Barbosa
TA, Webster
Nene, Ryan Kelly, Booker, Ves
Gortat, Len, Kevin S

Either way, it looks like they would be in a better position to grow the team moving forward. They could openly try to resign TA. If not, you still have Webster there to start and you go get another young SF who can dribble which is a big thing this team is missing. If they added Gortat, they could offer him something around 7/8M or let him walk and still have a center of the future on the team. Any of this was easily doable without any huge speculation about trade that may never have happened. The team wouldn't be set, but they would have more flexibility and less huge question marks.

[doclinkin]

Oh, and I should add, by the way, that if you can't answer the question, because you don't know what the answer is, I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't know anything about basketball.

If, on the other hand, you can answer the question, but you choose not to, in that case as well I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't have any interest in interacting w/ people here, in which case obviously none of us would have any reason to interact with you.

In either case, in other words, I think it'll be time for everyone to put you on "ignore." I know I will, and I'll strongly suggest that others do the same. Now, note -- this would not be because you disagree w/ me. I don't ignore people who disagree with me (far from it! ask LyricalRico and a few others). It would be because you've shown either that you can't respond to a simple basketball question or that you won't. If you respond -- either way -- no reason to put you on ignore. No reason to think you're a "troll" or a bad person in any sense.

In other words, to reduce the above to its simplest expression: put up or shut up.

Doclinkin -- what do you think? Am I asking too much of milellie111. Or what? Still want to jump into his camp?

Here's where I am: hate it or not the truth is the opinion of Milliemillz is likely more relevant than yours.

That is, his opinion is closer to that of the core audience of fans that Ted is trying to reach and recruit. Partisan diehards who cheer for the the team unreservedly and look for the upside in every small improvement as a sign of the hopeful future. He is trying to reach the know-little casual fan and encourage them to give up their skepticism and commit to the team, buying blocks of tickets, recruiting their neighbors and friends. Making it a new tradition, etc. Rock the red.

So like it or not, whether or not you judge yourself to be a true basketball svengali who can design airtight tests of hardwood acumen to definitively sort the cognoscenti from the hoi polloi, your knowledge is irrelevant. No one is hiring you to do that for them. And in your bitter frustration -- no matter how well-earned-- you render yourself irrelevant.

Ted needn't convince you to care. You are a diehard, you hate the direction the team has taken --and yet and STILL you're sticking around. You are going nowhere. No matter how black your despair you have always ever been here. The fact that you can quote decades of frustrating minutia and dissect long forgotten end of bench roster sleights... that all proves the point: you are money in the bank for him. Or not. Either way he's not going to convince you easily. Your dollars are not subject to his desires.

No, the fact is, as much as you might be comforted by surrounding yourself with a circle jerk of like minded and reasonable dissenters, in this measure you fail yourself. By trying to drive off the casual fan, you lose the chance to do a good service, not by innoculating him with your carefully incubated pessimism, but instead by understanding his perspective, putting yourself in his shoes, appreciating his point, then seeing what areas of commonality you can work with in order to shift his perspective so that you can learn what it would take to get the ticket buying public, well--- not to quit on the team-- but to both buy tickets and still exert influence on the owner.

You miss the chance to osmose your carefully vetted statistical knowledge through the membrane of forgiveable ignorance, so that you can get an entire stadium of diehards to parrot your single best idea as if it were common knowledge. Or shout "Trade for Kevin" (clap clap clapclapclap) when either Durant or Love visit.

But yeah, you neither win friends nor influence people by calling them idiots and trolls and asking them to simply go away and leave you to the dim clammy comfort of the shadows under your own bridge.

Hell yes I'm with millie. Envy his world. Would love it to be true.

On the one hand it sucks that mediocre is the best we will get right now. And yes he's misguided in thinking this house of cards is durable enough to form a skyscraper when 40% of our starting five is on expiring contracts and to retain them would soak up any of that notable cap space. And sure his optimism regarding the long range planning of our current GM is misguided given a long track record where a sub-mediocre record is constantly chalked up to 'bad luck' and not lack of foresight and an inability to select talent in the draft.

[As distinct from to finding undervalued properties in free agency or via trade -- one of Ernie's few strengths as far as I'm concerned. Eric Maynor notwithstanding. Many players that GMEG selects via trade or free agency find career years in their time in the Wiz. Caron. Webster. Ariza. The real Singleton. Gilbert. DSteve. And so on. Undervalued upside. Even if he went on to overpay for that developed upside later].

But.

So.

On the other hand.

This team direly needs an infusion of energy, cash, excitement, local support, etc. And in a year when the Redskins are vulnerable to loss of sports dollars, this may be a time to recruit some longer term fans with a potential good run based on chemistry and the development of strong rapport of the players on the floor. Yes, wins and sustained wins help most of all; and yes a one-time surge does nothing to draw long term fans if the next year they fail to tread water in a rising tide of young talent in the East. Still, playoff experience for our core, wide exposure, developing grudging respect from the commentariat on broadcast cable, referees, and knowlittles elsewhere -- this may have an effect in wins and losses, and in recruiting names even in trade as there are players who make it clear they don't wish to extend-and-trade or whatnot.

And though it is misguided in the big picture, millie-mills has a point or two. In the short term, this team has good chemistry, is filled with hard working players, no knuckleheads, has developing talent at key positions, plays surprisingly good defense at times, has veterans who are above average, has found some diamonds in the rough in players like Webster, and has significant size at all positions. Is easy to cheer for, even if the front office is worht booing. When we play well, if you myopically look only at our wins, and project from there, we look pretty good. Fun to watch, full of good guys, playing the right way, passing the ball, working as a true team. And when we're healthy, we are improving still.

And okay so we have no depth, and little talent stockpiled for the future, but well--- In the post season, with no back-to-backs-- allowing extended play of our veterans -- we might do some damage there, fxck things up and accidentally win a series. Put a deep scare into the eventual ECF winners. Ignite some irrational exuberance.

And with an influx of cash and respect, national TV appearances, endorsements and larger advertising dollars, the creation of his own TV network, not splitting the pie but swelling his own warchest --a savvy businessman may find new ways to re-invest in the squad. Recruit front office personnel who see this as a plum job with some upside and possibility. Land a high-profile coach who is well sought after. Spend money on developing a farm team D-League system. Whatever, you never know. More might bring more.

We have been a laughingstock for a long time. And while the right thing to desire is to become a dynasty, and we are clearly a few cognitive leaps away from that as a probability-- still-- dislodging ourselves from the inertia of suck requires a pretty long lever. We don't have a Russian billionaire who can afford to burn dollars on a vanity project, or a brand-new building that is a tax-subsidized goldmine.

Eh, whatever. All that is speculative fiction. I can spin a yarn whether or not I can believe it yet. However, what I know though is that if you only want to convince yourself of your own ideas, and not understand at least the reasonable hopes of others, and whatever they might be founded on, well --no matter how canny you are in your ability to deconstruct another's thesis, you will still remain only bitterly irrelevant. Ted ain;t gonna hear it. You'll just be doomed to be miserable and right, and all your cohort will tell you so.

Shxt, In that respect you might as well put everybody on 'ignore'.

But Me I'm looking forward to letting go of my frustration and solely rooting for wins. Looking forward to the minute when I can drop my rationality and surrender to the mob-thought of "F--- the rational, eff the odds, forget the future, lets go out and bankrupt some bookies and an ruin some bandwagoners dreams'. Lets go wreck some things, and surprise some people, even ourselves. What the hell, lets see if we can go win something.

Not there yet, but I'm working on it. Hoping for the day.

Go wiz.

[payitforward]

Who turned max-level cap space AND a first round pick into Okafor/Gortat and Trevor Ariza.

Don't forget the 2nd rounder or as EG calls it "a chance to trade for cash considerations" that the Wizards gave up to get Okafor and Ariza.

EG has done enough bad to not have to reach on things like this by twisting the truth. He traded the worst contract in the league for Lewis who the turned into Okafor and Trevor Ariza. Then just before the season started Okafor went down so he traded that contract plus a protected first for Gortat.

No, hands, he traded the chance to buy out Rashard's bad contract at @ 50 cents on the dollar ($13m), giving himself tons of flexibility and cap room. Which NO immediately did btw. Instead he arranged to pay that same amount of money and a bit more ($14m) to Okafor (over 30 and coming off injury) and to pay it for an extra year. Along with that came Ariza.

For the privilege of making this great deal -- which drove us to 29 wins, wow! -- he also gave away a 2012 R2 pick that could have been Kyle O'Quinn -- a talented big man prospect from a small school. Just as was said above. No twisting involved.

For his first $14m, Ernie got 2000 minutes out of Okafor -- 24 minutes a game on average. Then, when Okafor went down again, he had no Plan B at Center, so he traded for Gortat, whom the Suns were ready to part ways with. To get him, he had to give up a piece of our future -- a round 1 pick.

But not only that, to make the trade work salary-wise he had to take on 2 extra players for whom there was no room on his roster, waive them, and pay them their full 2013-14 salaries!

The guy's a nightmare, an absolute disgrace.

[payitforward]

In either case, in other words, I think it'll be time for everyone to put you on "ignore." I know I will, and I'll strongly suggest that others do the same.

Weren't you the guy who said he was too hilarious to put in ignore?

Yes, but the same joke over and over changed my mind.

[payitforward]

If I am Ted Leonsis, i'm not concerned with the feelings and suggestions of the fans from a management perspective, most if not all who will never own a multimillion dollar organzation or placed in the capacity to make business decisions of a General Manager. Most if not all who ever had such qualifications to run a large franchise and never will. I am concerned about profit and the end product. I am concerned of the blueprint of success i've had before (Capitals) and furthering the interests of the Washington Wizards and making them compete. The product is currently producing. Production leads to increased season ticket holder accounts and enthusiam from most fans who enjoy the game of basketball and a competitive home team fighting for the playoffs. The small minority of forum "Owners" and "GM's", well their opinions don't matter much.

Well, I don't exactly blame milellie111 for writing this kind of twaddle, as he was invited to do so.

Some of us here might actually have run pretty big organizations, millie, you never know -- here's a hint: look for the ones who can spell better than you.

You are right, of course, that the opinions of people like us don't matter much. That is, they don't influence decisions. We can see that easily enough in the decisions the Wizards' FO does make.

But, in 2011 I would have picked Kawhi Leonard over Jan Vesely, and I said so. I would have been right, or I would have been wrong -- one or the other -- despite the fact that my preference didn't matter much.

Now I know that 2011 was a long time ago, maybe before you had hair under your arms? But if your memory stretches back that far, please tell me: was I right (because Kawhi Leonard is a better player than Vesely)? Or was I wrong (because Jan Vesely is a better player than Leonard)?

If you are willing to think about that question, and give me your honest answer one way or the other, I'll be willing to listen to your opinions and preferences, and I'll give you my honest answers about them too. Is that fair?

So... what do you think -- we both know that my analysis doesn't matter to the Wizards (nor would I ever imagine that it did!), but given that fact do you agree with me or disagree?

I see... I'm a Wizards fan and you are an Ernie Grunfeld hater.

Sad that this team has promise, is competitive, in the playoff race and Wall was named an allstar and all you can focus on is firing the GM?

Ok, that's pretty definitive. You don't have the knowledge -- or, worse, the interest -- to actually say anything about a basketball decision.

You're useless, milellie111, totally useless. I'm going to go "pouf" and make you invisible. It'll be fun too.

[payitforward]

Oh, and I should add, by the way, that if you can't answer the question, because you don't know what the answer is, I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't know anything about basketball.

If, on the other hand, you can answer the question, but you choose not to, in that case as well I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't have any interest in interacting w/ people here, in which case obviously none of us would have any reason to interact with you.

In either case, in other words, I think it'll be time for everyone to put you on "ignore." I know I will, and I'll strongly suggest that others do the same. Now, note -- this would not be because you disagree w/ me. I don't ignore people who disagree with me (far from it! ask LyricalRico and a few others). It would be because you've shown either that you can't respond to a simple basketball question or that you won't. If you respond -- either way -- no reason to put you on ignore. No reason to think you're a "troll" or a bad person in any sense.

In other words, to reduce the above to its simplest expression: put up or shut up.

Doclinkin -- what do you think? Am I asking too much of milellie111. Or what? Still want to jump into his camp?

Here's where I am: hate it or not the truth is the opinion of Milliemillz is likely more relevant than yours.

That is, his opinion is closer to that of the core audience of fans that Ted is trying to reach and recruit. Partisan diehards who cheer for the the team unreservedly and look for the upside in every small improvement as a sign of the hopeful future. He is trying to reach the know-little casual fan and encourage them to give up their skepticism and commit to the team, buying blocks of tickets, recruiting their neighbors and friends. Making it a new tradition, etc. Rock the red.

So like it or not, whether or not you judge yourself to be a true basketball svengali who can design airtight tests of hardwood acumen to definitively sort the cognoscenti from the hoi polloi, your knowledge is irrelevant. No one is hiring you to do that for them. And in your bitter frustration -- no matter how well-earned-- you render yourself irrelevant.

Ted needn't convince you to care. You are a diehard, you hate the direction the team has taken --and yet and STILL you're sticking around. You are going nowhere. No matter how black your despair you have always ever been here. The fact that you can quote decades of frustrating minutia and dissect long forgotten end of bench roster sleights... that all proves the point: you are money in the bank for him. Or not. Either way he's not going to convince you easily. Your dollars are not subject to his desires.

No, the fact is, as much as you might be comforted by surrounding yourself with a circle jerk of like minded and reasonable dissenters, in this measure you fail yourself. By trying to drive off the casual fan, you lose the chance to do a good service, not by innoculating him with your carefully incubated pessimism, but instead by understanding his perspective, putting yourself in his shoes, appreciating his point, then seeing what areas of commonality you can work with in order to shift his perspective so that you can learn what it would take to get the ticket buying public, well--- not to quit on the team-- but to both buy tickets and still exert influence on the owner.

You miss the chance to osmose your carefully vetted statistical knowledge through the membrane of forgiveable ignorance, so that you can get an entire stadium of diehards to parrot your single best idea as if it were common knowledge. Or shout "Trade for Kevin" (clap clap clapclapclap) when either Durant or Love visit.

But yeah, you neither win friends nor influence people by calling them idiots and trolls and asking them to simply go away and leave you to the dim clammy comfort of the shadows under your own bridge.

Hell yes I'm with millie. Envy his world. Would love it to be true.

On the one hand it sucks that mediocre is the best we will get right now. And yes he's misguided in thinking this house of cards is durable enough to form a skyscraper when 40% of our starting five is on expiring contracts and to retain them would soak up any of that notable cap space. And sure his optimism regarding the long range planning of our current GM is misguided given a long track record where a sub-mediocre record is constantly chalked up to 'bad luck' and not lack of foresight and an inability to select talent in the draft.

[As distinct from to finding undervalued properties in free agency or via trade -- one of Ernie's few strengths as far as I'm concerned. Eric Maynor notwithstanding. Many players that GMEG selects via trade or free agency find career years in their time in the Wiz. Caron. Webster. Ariza. The real Singleton. Gilbert. DSteve. And so on. Undervalued upside. Even if he went on to overpay for that developed upside later].

But.

So.

On the other hand.

This team direly needs an infusion of energy, cash, excitement, local support, etc. And in a year when the Redskins are vulnerable to loss of sports dollars, this may be a time to recruit some longer term fans with a potential good run based on chemistry and the development of strong rapport of the players on the floor. Yes, wins and sustained wins help most of all; and yes a one-time surge does nothing to draw long term fans if the next year they fail to tread water in a rising tide of young talent in the East. Still, playoff experience for our core, wide exposure, developing grudging respect from the commentariat on broadcast cable, referees, and knowlittles elsewhere -- this may have an effect in wins and losses, and in recruiting names even in trade as there are players who make it clear they don't wish to extend-and-trade or whatnot.

And though it is misguided in the big picture, millie-mills has a point or two. In the short term, this team has good chemistry, is filled with hard working players, no knuckleheads, has developing talent at key positions, plays surprisingly good defense at times, has veterans who are above average, has found some diamonds in the rough in players like Webster, and has significant size at all positions. Is easy to cheer for, even if the front office is worht booing. When we play well, if you myopically look only at our wins, and project from there, we look pretty good. Fun to watch, full of good guys, playing the right way, passing the ball, working as a true team. And when we're healthy, we are improving still.

And okay so we have no depth, and little talent stockpiled for the future, but well--- In the post season, with no back-to-backs-- allowing extended play of our veterans -- we might do some damage there, fxck things up and accidentally win a series. Put a deep scare into the eventual ECF winners. Ignite some irrational exuberance.

And with an influx of cash and respect, national TV appearances, endorsements and larger advertising dollars, the creation of his own TV network, not splitting the pie but swelling his own warchest --a savvy businessman may find new ways to re-invest in the squad. Recruit front office personnel who see this as a plum job with some upside and possibility. Land a high-profile coach who is well sought after. Spend money on developing a farm team D-League system. Whatever, you never know. More might bring more.

We have been a laughingstock for a long time. And while the right thing to desire is to become a dynasty, and we are clearly a few cognitive leaps away from that as a probability-- still-- dislodging ourselves from the inertia of suck requires a pretty long lever. We don't have a Russian billionaire who can afford to burn dollars on a vanity project, or a brand-new building that is a tax-subsidized goldmine.

Eh, whatever. All that is speculative fiction. I can spin a yarn whether or not I can believe it yet. However, what I know though is that if you only want to convince yourself of your own ideas, and not understand at least the reasonable hopes of others, and whatever they might be founded on, well --no matter how canny you are in your ability to deconstruct another's thesis, you will still remain only bitterly irrelevant. Ted ain;t gonna hear it. You'll just be doomed to be miserable and right, and all your cohort will tell you so.

Shxt, In that respect you might as well put everybody on 'ignore'.

But Me I'm looking forward to letting go of my frustration and solely rooting for wins. Looking forward to the minute when I can drop my rationality and surrender to the mob-thought of "F--- the rational, eff the odds, forget the future, lets go out and bankrupt some bookies and an ruin some bandwagoners dreams'. Lets go wreck some things, and surprise some people, even ourselves. What the hell, lets see if we can go win something.

Not there yet, but I'm working on it. Hoping for the day.

Go wiz.

I'm on board w/ your last line -- other than that, forgive me doc, but in addition to being the longest post I've ever read here it's one of the most pointless.

At the core of its pointlessness, and this was a real surprise to me, is complete misunderstanding of why I or (I think) anyone would come participate here. I don't come here to influence the direction of the Wizards; I'm not fool enough to imagine that what any of us writes here even reaches the Wizards let alone has any influence whatever. And I certainly don't come here to influence a young fool like millie who arrives armed with insults and a brain-dead level of understanding of... anything at all -- at least anything he's brought up. Maybe he's good working with his chemistry set or whatever a child of his age has to play with.

I come here to have intelligent, impassioned interchanges with other people who know something about basketball and choose to care about the Wizards. I say "choose to" advisedly: this is all a matter of elective association. We're not writing here about life and death. We're not even writing about terrorism or our society's future.

The Wizards aren't important -- what's important is the level of human imagination, intelligence, social exchange, etc. that we work with in talking about the subject of the Wizards. And that's why it mattered whether millie took up the challenge to make an actual, substantive comment about a basketball decision. When he didn't do that, he read himself out of any chance to be a member of this community; he affirmed in action exactly what he'd been accused of.

He's a troll, IOW. And I would love it if every single participant here put him on Ignore -- it would be exactly what he deserved. Not because he defended Ernie -- LyricalRico does that, and no one would react by putting him on ignore; far from it! -- but because he dissed the whole enterprise of intelligence, he dissed the passion that fuels discussion; he's an ignorant twerp, what he writes is ugly and stupid; nothing he writes adds anything.

In short, he should go away -- he's not worthy of being here! And believe me, the bar for that is low not high. But however low, he doesn't make it. The next time he writes I hope no one sees it, no one at all. They won't be missing anything.

[milellie111]

Oh, and I should add, by the way, that if you can't answer the question, because you don't know what the answer is, I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't know anything about basketball.

If, on the other hand, you can answer the question, but you choose not to, in that case as well I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't have any interest in interacting w/ people here, in which case obviously none of us would have any reason to interact with you.

In either case, in other words, I think it'll be time for everyone to put you on "ignore." I know I will, and I'll strongly suggest that others do the same. Now, note -- this would not be because you disagree w/ me. I don't ignore people who disagree with me (far from it! ask LyricalRico and a few others). It would be because you've shown either that you can't respond to a simple basketball question or that you won't. If you respond -- either way -- no reason to put you on ignore. No reason to think you're a "troll" or a bad person in any sense.

In other words, to reduce the above to its simplest expression: put up or shut up.


Doclinkin -- what do you think? Am I asking too much of milellie111. Or what? Still want to jump into his camp?

Here's where I am: hate it or not the truth is the opinion of Milliemillz is likely more relevant than yours.

That is, his opinion is closer to that of the core audience of fans that Ted is trying to reach and recruit. Partisan diehards who cheer for the the team unreservedly and look for the upside in every small improvement as a sign of the hopeful future. He is trying to reach the know-little casual fan and encourage them to give up their skepticism and commit to the team, buying blocks of tickets, recruiting their neighbors and friends. Making it a new tradition, etc. Rock the red.

So like it or not, whether or not you judge yourself to be a true basketball svengali who can design airtight tests of hardwood acumen to definitively sort the cognoscenti from the hoi polloi, your knowledge is irrelevant. No one is hiring you to do that for them. And in your bitter frustration -- no matter how well-earned-- you render yourself irrelevant.

Ted needn't convince you to care. You are a diehard, you hate the direction the team has taken --and yet and STILL you're sticking around. You are going nowhere. No matter how black your despair you have always ever been here. The fact that you can quote decades of frustrating minutia and dissect long forgotten end of bench roster sleights... that all proves the point: you are money in the bank for him. Or not. Either way he's not going to convince you easily. Your dollars are not subject to his desires.

No, the fact is, as much as you might be comforted by surrounding yourself with a circle jerk of like minded and reasonable dissenters, in this measure you fail yourself. By trying to drive off the casual fan, you lose the chance to do a good service, not by innoculating him with your carefully incubated pessimism, but instead by understanding his perspective, putting yourself in his shoes, appreciating his point, then seeing what areas of commonality you can work with in order to shift his perspective so that you can learn what it would take to get the ticket buying public, well--- not to quit on the team-- but to both buy tickets and still exert influence on the owner.

You miss the chance to osmose your carefully vetted statistical knowledge through the membrane of forgiveable ignorance, so that you can get an entire stadium of diehards to parrot your single best idea as if it were common knowledge. Or shout "Trade for Kevin" (clap clap clapclapclap) when either Durant or Love visit.

But yeah, you neither win friends nor influence people by calling them idiots and trolls and asking them to simply go away and leave you to the dim clammy comfort of the shadows under your own bridge.

Hell yes I'm with millie. Envy his world. Would love it to be true.

On the one hand it sucks that mediocre is the best we will get right now. And yes he's misguided in thinking this house of cards is durable enough to form a skyscraper when 40% of our starting five is on expiring contracts and to retain them would soak up any of that notable cap space. And sure his optimism regarding the long range planning of our current GM is misguided given a long track record where a sub-mediocre record is constantly chalked up to 'bad luck' and not lack of foresight and an inability to select talent in the draft.

[As distinct from to finding undervalued properties in free agency or via trade -- one of Ernie's few strengths as far as I'm concerned. Eric Maynor notwithstanding. Many players that GMEG selects via trade or free agency find career years in their time in the Wiz. Caron. Webster. Ariza. The real Singleton. Gilbert. DSteve. And so on. Undervalued upside. Even if he went on to overpay for that developed upside later].

But.

So.

On the other hand.

This team direly needs an infusion of energy, cash, excitement, local support, etc. And in a year when the Redskins are vulnerable to loss of sports dollars, this may be a time to recruit some longer term fans with a potential good run based on chemistry and the development of strong rapport of the players on the floor. Yes, wins and sustained wins help most of all; and yes a one-time surge does nothing to draw long term fans if the next year they fail to tread water in a rising tide of young talent in the East. Still, playoff experience for our core, wide exposure, developing grudging respect from the commentariat on broadcast cable, referees, and knowlittles elsewhere -- this may have an effect in wins and losses, and in recruiting names even in trade as there are players who make it clear they don't wish to extend-and-trade or whatnot.

And though it is misguided in the big picture, millie-mills has a point or two. In the short term, this team has good chemistry, is filled with hard working players, no knuckleheads, has developing talent at key positions, plays surprisingly good defense at times, has veterans who are above average, has found some diamonds in the rough in players like Webster, and has significant size at all positions. Is easy to cheer for, even if the front office is worht booing. When we play well, if you myopically look only at our wins, and project from there, we look pretty good. Fun to watch, full of good guys, playing the right way, passing the ball, working as a true team. And when we're healthy, we are improving still.

And okay so we have no depth, and little talent stockpiled for the future, but well--- In the post season, with no back-to-backs-- allowing extended play of our veterans -- we might do some damage there, fxck things up and accidentally win a series. Put a deep scare into the eventual ECF winners. Ignite some irrational exuberance.

And with an influx of cash and respect, national TV appearances, endorsements and larger advertising dollars, the creation of his own TV network, not splitting the pie but swelling his own warchest --a savvy businessman may find new ways to re-invest in the squad. Recruit front office personnel who see this as a plum job with some upside and possibility. Land a high-profile coach who is well sought after. Spend money on developing a farm team D-League system. Whatever, you never know. More might bring more.

We have been a laughingstock for a long time. And while the right thing to desire is to become a dynasty, and we are clearly a few cognitive leaps away from that as a probability-- still-- dislodging ourselves from the inertia of suck requires a pretty long lever. We don't have a Russian billionaire who can afford to burn dollars on a vanity project, or a brand-new building that is a tax-subsidized goldmine.

Eh, whatever. All that is speculative fiction. I can spin a yarn whether or not I can believe it yet. However, what I know though is that if you only want to convince yourself of your own ideas, and not understand at least the reasonable hopes of others, and whatever they might be founded on, well --no matter how canny you are in your ability to deconstruct another's thesis, you will still remain only bitterly irrelevant. Ted ain;t gonna hear it. You'll just be doomed to be miserable and right, and all your cohort will tell you so.

Shxt, In that respect you might as well put everybody on 'ignore'.

But Me I'm looking forward to letting go of my frustration and solely rooting for wins. Looking forward to the minute when I can drop my rationality and surrender to the mob-thought of "F--- the rational, eff the odds, forget the future, lets go out and bankrupt some bookies and an ruin some bandwagoners dreams'. Lets go wreck some things, and surprise some people, even ourselves. What the hell, lets see if we can go win something.

Not there yet, but I'm working on it. Hoping for the day.

Go wiz.

I'm on board w/ your last line -- other than that, forgive me doc, but in addition to being the longest post I've ever read here it's one of the most pointless.

At the core of its pointlessness, and this was a real surprise to me, is complete misunderstanding of why I or (I think) anyone would come participate here. I don't come here to influence the direction of the Wizards; I'm not fool enough to imagine that what any of us writes here even reaches the Wizards let alone has any influence whatever. And I certainly don't come here to influence a young fool like millie who arrives armed with insults and a brain-dead level of understanding of... anything at all -- at least anything he's brought up. Maybe he's good working with his chemistry set or whatever a child of his age has to play with.

I come here to have intelligent, impassioned interchanges with other people who know something about basketball and choose to care about the Wizards. I say "choose to" advisedly: this is all a matter of elective association. We're not writing here about life and death. We're not even writing about terrorism or our society's future.

The Wizards aren't important -- what's important is the level of human imagination, intelligence, social exchange, etc. that we work with in talking about the subject of the Wizards. And that's why it mattered whether millie took up the challenge to make an actual, substantive comment about a basketball decision. When he didn't do that, he read himself out of any chance to be a member of this community; he affirmed in action exactly what he'd been accused of.

He's a troll, IOW. And I would love it if every single participant here put him on Ignore -- it would be exactly what he deserved. Not because he defended Ernie -- LyricalRico does that, and no one would react by putting him on ignore; far from it! -- but because he dissed the whole enterprise of intelligence, he dissed the passion that fuels discussion; he's an ignorant twerp, what he writes is ugly and stupid; nothing he writes adds anything.

In short, he should go away -- he's not worthy of being here! And believe me, the bar for that is low not high. But however low, he doesn't make it. The next time he writes I hope no one sees it, no one at all. They won't be missing anything.

I apologize for making you so angry to the point you want to put me on ignore and encourage other posters to do so as well. I also apologize for not meeting your expectations of a knowledgeable basketball poster in here. In my own opinion, i think i know just a little bit about basketball but trust me, there are a lot of people that know a whole lot more than me. I never claimed to be a genius or walking encyclopedia when it came to the game. I have loved the Bullets/Wizards since i was a kid and nothing will change my passion for the team. I have seen the rough patches and endured the frustration just like anybody else. Nothing that any other NBA franchise has not gone through or will go through. I am focused on the future and do not look in the past. I do not hate or have any ill will against Ernie Grunfeld because at the end of the day, he does not impact my livelihood, family or well being. Perhaps you should evaluate why he makes you so angry and the impact he is having on your life

I'm enjoying this season. I enjoyed last season as well (even some games where Wall was injured). The wonderful thing about the Wizards is that you never know what to expect. Some games these guys will lay an egg against a sub-par opponent, then the next game they will blow the doors off the Miami Heat. The guys can compete, they have the talent and motivation. There are tons of fans just like me who like the direction this team is going. There are tons of fans like me who appreciate Ted Leonsis giving Ernie Grunfeld a chance to right the ship and not making a quick rash decision and perhaps bringing in some rookie GM who could do much worse. There are tons of fans like me who appreciate Ernie retaining Randy Whitman, a cheap hard working defensive minded coach who is not a big name. There are tons of fans like me who appreciate the Wizards not jumping in on every big name free agent. If you don't realize, this used to be the reputation of another Washington area team for years and the fans hated it. The Wizards seem to be the opposite and I love it. I understand your need for instant gratification, but in this business it doesn't quite work that way. That model has been tried before and has failed many times.

I seriously doubt that Ted Leonsis will feel the pinch in his pockets if you don't support the team because of your hate of personnel moves Grunfeld has made in past years. So how about we all get positive, sit back, pop open a beer and root for our team making a strong case for the playoffs this year!!!

Make it out to a couple games this year at the Verizon Center if you can. The boys need the support and the fans could use a little shot in the arm. DC basketball is alive folks!

[payitforward]

Well... I certainly got serious about all that late last night! Good heavens....

I'm glad you are enjoying the season and the team, milellie111 -- so am I. It's better to be an average team than an awful team! It's more fun to watch this generation of the Wizards than the previous one. Ariza and Webster are a whole lot better than Al Thornton and Nick Young!

I don't "hate" Ernie Grunfeld -- that is, I don't hate him anywhere but here or any time except when posting here or watching his carefully-chosen incompetents (Seraphin, Vesely, Singleton, Harrington, Maynor, Temple) be incompetent -- or watching the guys I preferred turn into the best young players in the league.

And he certainly doesn't impact my life! As I wrote last night, this ain't exactly life or death stuff.

I prefer the tone of your post above to any other you've written so far. Instead of saying something negative about people here, you concentrated on the positive in your own experience -- I'm glad to hear about that. Instead of claiming Ernie as "a great GM" who "proves doubters wrong," you pointed to the fact that we never know what we're going to get night to night.

On that basis, you're off the hook! For as long as you aren't a hater of the people here, and if you can accept that "critique" of Ernie isn't "hate", even if the critique is expressed in strong terms, I have no problem w/ you. And... who knows, if you hang around here you might even get to a point of understanding why it would have been better to pick Kawhi Leonard instead of Jan Vesely in the 2011 draft, why it's better to use rather than trade draft picks, why you don't acquire veteran big men in the twilights of their careers who are coming off injuries, and so forth!

You might even grasp the fact that these critiques you read actually express caring about the team.

As to attending games -- in my case I live 125 miles away. CCJ lives in Hawaii. Makes it kind of hard to get to the games! When I lived in DC I had season tickets for a few years, and I miss going to games.

[doclinkin]

Few quick points on on my way to work.

Your history here is short: this board has actually affected the team in a couple instances. Juan Dixon cited an 'Amazingly Sucky' thread as inspiration for his 35 pt playoff game against the Bulls. Gilbert's dad intimated that he read the boards, referenced points made here. A few posters on here still maintain email dialogue with Ted. Others have collegial relationships with other front office members.

You do agree with the screed in one other way: the belief that _your_ posts on here are pointless.

My man Rico is actually more the troll since he doesn't actually believe his pro-Ernie screeds but has taken a stance to amuse himself more than anything. :clapclapclap: Okay he'll argue the point at times, but any who has read his work before he took that stance knows his heart ain't really in it

We welcome trolls, anyone who incites debate, is welcome, as far as I'm concerned. The fact that millz can get your goat makes him worth welcoming. RIP Stildropin20 giltawn butler, and all. Wish we had a hall of trolls as well as the HOF above.

No, you don't get to say who does and does not deserve to be here, my man millz has earned his spot on the roster simply by showing up.

[milellie111]

Thanks for the welcome. I like it here and I will stay. I used to be a member of Wizardsextreme.com and frequent that site quite often until it got shutdown. I was looking for another true dedicated Wizards site and not just some thread on Extremeskins dedicated to the team. That's how i wound up here. I haven't posted much in the passed, but enjoyed the game threads and other topics.

The reason why i titled my thread "Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong" is because their were many who felt that this team would still be a lottery team, many gave up on Wall felt that he should be traded, many were too premature with Beal and thought he was the wrong pick and should have been traded, many questioned the Ariza trade and called him a bum etc. Many knee jerk reactions flying around. The thread was not attacking anyone in general on the board, it was just directed to all those who may have felt the same way as the ideas stated above. My opinion may not be popular, but hey i will always put up a good fight in trying to explain it and provide some evidence. The whole shoulda, coulda, woulda drafted Kawi Leonard over Jan Vesely and other guys etc. does nothing for this team now. Who knows if Leonard would have been as good as he is in San Antonio, who knows if he came to the DC area and he turned into an Andray Blatche strip club lap dance king. I don't want to live in the past and be jealous of players we could have had, i want to focus on now, the future and support the guys we have on this roster no matter how bad they may "suck".

[hands11]

milellie111

There is nothing wrong with the way you posted and no one is putting you on ignore at another posters request so I wouldn't worry much about that.

[montestewart]

milellie111

There is nothing wrong with the way you posted and no one is putting you on ignore at another posters request so I wouldn't worry much about that.

Agreed. I've never put anyone on ignore, and you sure have stirred things up around here. I might give you an Oklahoma Atomic Wedgie in response, but I'll defend to the death your right to say OWWWWWWWW! Keep it up mile1.

[doclinkin]

The Wizards aren't important -- what's important is the level of human imagination, intelligence, social exchange, etc. that we work with in talking ---. And that's why it mattered whether millie took up the challenge -- When he didn't do that, he read himself out of any chance to be a member of this community

And if failure to take up a challenge and participate in the community is all it takes to be drummed off the boards, you'da been dunnned long ago for failing to post in the Poets Thread.

Don't make me issue a challenge for a flyting. Get in that thing.

[closg00]

The Lakers have Marshall, the Spurs call-up Shannon Brown for a try-out. Watch both of those former Wiz assets pay dividends for the teams that gave them a chance.

[pineappleheadindc]

Few quick points on on my way to work.

Your history here is short: this board has actually affected the team in a couple instances. Juan Dixon cited an 'Amazingly Sucky' thread as inspiration for his 35 pt playoff game against the Bulls. Gilbert's dad intimated that he read the boards, referenced points made here. A few posters on here still maintain email dialogue with Ted. Others have collegial relationships with other front office members.

Yeah, I once talked to Gilbert's dad via phone and he told me directly that he read the board from time to time and relayed stuff to Gil.

[dckingsfan]

My only point on this thread is - count the season ticket holders. Lot's of fans will not renew or begin to purchase season tickets until the franchise moves in a more positive direction. If Ted feels the progress is good enough, then stay the course.

One and done in the playoffs isn't going to cut it, IMO. In basketball terms, EG is an abject failure as a GM - he has undermined Ted's ambitions to fill the house. But if Ted feels it is "good enough" then so be it.

Or as one would say - scoreboard.

[dckingsfan]

And this thread is wayyyyyy over 100 pages.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Well... I certainly got serious about all that late last night! Good heavens....

I'm glad you are enjoying the season and the team, milellie111 -- so am I. It's better to be an average team than an awful team! It's more fun to watch this generation of the Wizards than the previous one. Ariza and Webster are a whole lot better than Al Thornton and Nick Young!

I don't "hate" Ernie Grunfeld -- that is, I don't hate him anywhere but here or any time except when posting here or watching his carefully-chosen incompetents (Seraphin, Vesely, Singleton, Harrington, Maynor, Temple) be incompetent -- or watching the guys I preferred turn into the best young players in the league.

And he certainly doesn't impact my life! As I wrote last night, this ain't exactly life or death stuff.

I prefer the tone of your post above to any other you've written so far. Instead of saying something negative about people here, you concentrated on the positive in your own experience -- I'm glad to hear about that. Instead of claiming Ernie as "a great GM" who "proves doubters wrong," you pointed to the fact that we never know what we're going to get night to night.

On that basis, you're off the hook! For as long as you aren't a hater of the people here, and if you can accept that "critique" of Ernie isn't "hate", even if the critique is expressed in strong terms, I have no problem w/ you. And... who knows, if you hang around here you might even get to a point of understanding why it would have been better to pick Kawhi Leonard instead of Jan Vesely in the 2011 draft, why it's better to use rather than trade draft picks, why you don't acquire veteran big men in the twilights of their careers who are coming off injuries, and so forth!

You might even grasp the fact that these critiques you read actually express caring about the team.

As to attending games -- in my case I live 125 miles away. CCJ lives in Hawaii. Makes it kind of hard to get to the games! When I lived in DC I had season tickets for a few years, and I miss going to games.

It's the ex-wife baby mammas who REALLY make it hard for me to get to games. Otherwise, I'd live in paradise and eat the icing, too. I'd have seen a game live by now. Instead, I don't even have league pass. No worries, working out and getting to the beach is healthier and cheaper than watching tons of games as I have for years.